KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[shkumar4963]

Just stating my opinion on a public forum. *unknw*

It will be difficult for all of us to read if we are start to preface each of out sentences by the phrase "In my opinion" or "I feel" or "I think". When I write something I assume that everyone will take it as my opinion. If I want to state a fact, I will say it specifically.which will be rare since I know that you are all very intelligent and can find out the facts for yourself.

Now let's get back to understanding the magic of LS50 enginering or marketing. Creating that kind of hype, if it was truly a hype, is (I feel - hope it was understood) probably more difficult that creating a truly revolutionary speaker. So let's give three cheers to them for that.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There was a big thing not too long back on another forum about stating "in my opinion" etc, as many non facts stated by people were being presented as fact by its wording (as I have pointed out in Vladimir's post). They way a fact is stated is exactly the same as the way an opinion is stated, except one isn't necessarily true.

As for the LS50s, I'd just recommend reading the white paper to understand the design. I'd also recommend reading the white paper for the Blades, as much of the LS50's tech was derived from them, and applied to a very small bookshelf speaker. As we all know, speakers are about compromises, particularly smaller ones. You only have to compare speakers like Sonus Faber Toys, ProAc Tablettes, B&W PM1s, KEF LS50s, ATC SCM7s etc to hear which aspect of each has been compromised. Some compromises are apparent in the specs.

Being what was to be an anniversary product, and represent KEF's 50 years of innovation, they could easily have made it a higher end, more expensive product, which would more than likely have overcome any of the LS50's shortcomings, but unlike the Blades, they wanted it to be an affordable product, accessible by everyone. There are aspects of the LS50 that easily compare - and sometimes surpass - far more expensive bookshelf designs. Many other speaker manufacturers have praised the design, some publicly, some to me personally, and that is probably the biggest praise any manufacturer can get.

Youre not going to get perfection when buying the LS50 - they're £800 - that's just not possible, but what they achieve from such a small box is stunning (depending on your preference). Look at the cutaways and pictures showing their internals - there's very little real cabinet volume, as most of it is bracing, drivers/magnet, crossover etc.

 

[lindsayt]

I think that the LS50's are a very well judged balance of compromises:

Not too big, not too expensive, the impression of enough bass to get by, decent amount of life and fizz in the midrange and treble, not boring or nasty to listen to at generous volumes. I can understand why a lot of people like them a lot.

The bass does disapear at lower volumes, and they do lack genuine bass extension when compared to much large speakers. I also thought there was something about vocals that wasn't quite right, but some or all of that might have been down to the (top end) Cyrus CD player and amps I heard them with. And they do seem to be speakers that could get fatiguing to listen to. So I can understand why they are not the right speakers for many people.

If you're looking for small speakers and if you really must have brand new only and if your budget is under £3k, I'd recommend you give them a listen. If those ifs don't apply to you, there are loads of other speakers that you're likely to prefer.

 

[chebby]

It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor.

KEF made a limited edition run of 500 pairs of LS3/5As for their 35th anniversary ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ippinkan/tags/ls35a/

 

[Covenanter]

I trust everyone's intellectual capabilities here to discern opinion from stated facts.

Oh yeah, the old switcheroony.

Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

Leave Vlad alone! His posts are interesting.

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

I trust everyone's intellectual capabilities here to discern opinion from stated facts.

Oh yeah, the old switcheroony.

Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

Leave Vlad alone! His posts are interesting.

Chris

Vlad's posts are often deliberately laced with comments that are designed to provoke a reaction, so he can then sit back and watch his handywork (very often on a Sunday). Generally, you reap what you sow, which is how I believe he keeps life interesting.

 

[Covenanter]

I trust everyone's intellectual capabilities here to discern opinion from stated facts.

Oh yeah, the old switcheroony.

Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

Leave Vlad alone! His posts are interesting.

Chris

Vlad's posts are often deliberately laced with comments that are designed to provoke a reaction, so he can then sit back and watch his handywork (very often on a Sunday). Generally, you reap what you sow, which is how I believe he keeps life interesting.

Not like you to be judgemental!

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

I trust everyone's intellectual capabilities here to discern opinion from stated facts.

Oh yeah, the old switcheroony.

Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

Leave Vlad alone! His posts are interesting.

Chris

Vlad's posts are often deliberately laced with comments that are designed to provoke a reaction, so he can then sit back and watch his handywork (very often on a Sunday). Generally, you reap what you sow, which is how I believe he keeps life interesting.

Not like you to be judgemental!

Chris

It was not meant to be judgemental, but a neutral observation......I have a live and let live outlook.

 

[shkumar4963]

There was a big thing not too long back on another forum about stating "in my opinion" etc, as many non facts stated by people were being presented as fact by its wording (as I have pointed out in Vladimir's post). They way a fact is stated is exactly the same as the way an opinion is stated, except one isn't necessarily true.

As for the LS50s, I'd just recommend reading the white paper to understand the design. I'd also recommend reading the white paper for the Blades, as much of the LS50's tech was derived from them, and applied to a very small bookshelf speaker. As we all know, speakers are about compromises, particularly smaller ones. You only have to compare speakers like Sonus Faber Toys, ProAc Tablettes, B&W PM1s, KEF LS50s, ATC SCM7s etc to hear which aspect of each has been compromised. Some compromises are apparent in the specs.

Being what was to be an anniversary product, and represent KEF's 50 years of innovation, they could easily have made it a higher end, more expensive product, which would more than likely have overcome any of the LS50's shortcomings, but unlike the Blades, they wanted it to be an affordable product, accessible by everyone. There are aspects of the LS50 that easily compare - and sometimes surpass - far more expensive bookshelf designs. Many other speaker manufacturers have praised the design, some publicly, some to me personally, and that is probably the biggest praise any manufacturer can get.?

Youre not going to get perfection when buying the LS50 - they're £800 - that's just not possible, but what they achieve from such a small box is stunning (depending on your preference). Look at the cutaways and pictures showing their internals - there's very little real cabinet volume, as most of it is bracing, drivers/magnet, crossover etc. 

David: you make valid points. My objections were that the reviews never mentioned all the compromises that you are mentioning. And when they were mentioned, they were mentioned only in passing or as a compliment. Like "for their size, they have a lot of bass" which is true. I would have said, they lack bass but for this size no other speakers other than PMC (or you can name which ever has better bass) gives you better bass. But then PMC cost $3000 and these cost only $1500.

This type of review would have been a more honest review.

Now I am saying all of this because my LS50 have not able to produce the quality that was described in most of the reviews. Again it is possible that there is an amp there that can work these speakers and produce the sound that reviewers were describing. I doubt it but it is possible.

The second point is about lack of any verifiable data. Most reviewers just provide subjective reviews that can not be challanged even if they are biased. Why... why not conduct double blind listening tests and then write the review that atleast provide a level of credibility for those subjective judgements. Why not have a panel of listeners to provide those reviews.

Also why not compare one speaker with others they have tested.

Why not clearly mention all the compromises.

There are so many questions that point to integrity of these reviews. While we can all find valid justifications for all of them one at a time, it is hard to justify all of them together.

 

[lindsayt]

Shkumar, I totally agree about what you say about the "Everything is awesome!" style of hi-fi magazine reviews. This style is used on the vast majority of equipment reviewed, not just the LS50's.

And that is where forums like this really come into their own. Where users can report their findings in a more balanced way.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Leave Vlad alone! His posts are interesting.

Chris

"Interesting" is no guarantee of anything though is it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

David: you make valid points. My objections were that the reviews never mentioned all the compromises that you are mentioning. And when they were mentioned, they were mentioned only in passing or as a compliment. Like "for their size, they have a lot of bass" which is true. I would have said, they lack bass but for this size no other speakers other than PMC (or you can name which ever has better bass) gives you better bass. But then PMC cost $3000 and these cost only $1500.

There may be a number of compromises that either won't make themselves obvious (unless you actually live with them over a real period of time), or the reviewer is enjoying them too much to realise the compromises. I tend to get in trouble when I mention negatives on forums, so I usually steer clear of them, but reps will know that I will bring them up when I'm auditioning new products.

Now I am saying all of this because my LS50 have not able to produce the quality that was described in most of the reviews. Again it is possible that there is an amp there that can work these speakers and produce the sound that reviewers were describing. I doubt it but it is possible.

This can be down to the reviewers interpretation of the product, his translation into words for a review, and then the end user's interpretation of that review. This is why I feel reviewers are pointless. I think many people are too scared to trust their own ears, and that's partly down to how this industry is portrayed as 'complicated'. It's not. It's extremelt simple - you listen, and you decide of you like it. If you don't, move on to the next one. As I've said before, finding a genuine dealer goes a long way to keeping things simple.

 

[antskip]

As a very very happy owner of LS50's, and a fascinated reader of this forum, I really appreciated the comments of DavidF@FrankHarveyHiFi. They brought a bit of sanity to a discussion that was close to making out that they were basically a piece of clever marketing. Before buying the LS50's I studied the reviews very carefully. On purchase, the only surprise I got was positive - I found them at least as wonderful as the reviews suggested - so detailed, so transparent, so honest; incredibly musical. That said, they are brutally honest of the equipment they are partnered with - and I have had to tweak that equipment to really allow the LS50's to sing. Better speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables, power supply, and integrated amplifier - every improvement made an immediate impact. My system as a whole has just got better and better. I have not yet reached its ceiling. If I wish to I can improve it further. Of course there are much better speakers out there - at a price. But a well-constructed system built around the LS50 is a musical wonder- and for me it is one I am happy to afford.

 

[Native_bon]

As a very very happy owner of LS50's, and a fascinated reader of this forum, I really appreciated the comments of DavidF@FrankHarveyHiFi. They brought a bit of sanity to a discussion that was close to making out that they were basically a piece of clever marketing. Before buying the LS50's I studied the reviews very carefully. On purchase, the only surprise I got was positive - I found them at least as wonderful as the reviews suggested - so detailed, so transparent, so honest; incredibly musical. That said, they are brutally honest of the equipment they are partnered with - and I have had to tweak that equipment to really allow the LS50's to sing. Better speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables, power supply, and integrated amplifier - every improvement made an immediate impact. My system as a whole has just got better and better. I have not yet reached its ceiling. If I wish to I can improve it further. Of course there are much better speakers out there - at a price. But a well-constructed system built around the LS50 is a musical wonder- and for me it is one I am happy to afford.

All boils dwn to taste in the end. Cause I got a feeling looking at that line up it will unsettle my ears..

 

[Frank Harvey]

All boils dwn to taste in the end. Cause I got a feeling looking at that line up it will unsettle my ears..

What, you think that an Elex-R and Apollo-R teamed with LS50s would be hard on the ears?

 

[Frank Harvey]

As a very very happy owner of LS50's, and a fascinated reader of this forum, I really appreciated the comments of DavidF@FrankHarveyHiFi. They brought a bit of sanity to a discussion that was close to making out that they were basically a piece of clever marketing. Before buying the LS50's I studied the reviews very carefully. On purchase, the only surprise I got was positive - I found them at least as wonderful as the reviews suggested - so detailed, so transparent, so honest; incredibly musical. That said, they are brutally honest of the equipment they are partnered with - and I have had to tweak that equipment to really allow the LS50's to sing. Better speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables, power supply, and integrated amplifier - every improvement made an immediate impact. My system as a whole has just got better and better. I have not yet reached its ceiling. If I wish to I can improve it further. Of course there are much better speakers out there - at a price. But a well-constructed system built around the LS50 is a musical wonder- and for me it is one I am happy to afford.

Thanks Antskip. Much of the time, it's down to scaremongering - trying to steer people clear of certain products or manufacturers.

Treated well, the LS50s will give their end user an insight into what higher end hi-fi sounds like, but at a much reduced cost. Enjoy

 

[steve_1979]

Vlad's posts are often deliberately laced with comments that are designed to provoke a reaction, so he can then sit back and watch his handywork (very often on a Sunday). Generally, you reap what you sow, which is how I believe he keeps life interesting.

Keeping life interesting by spending time on a hifi forum. Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

 

[CnoEvil]

Vlad's posts are often deliberately laced with comments that are designed to provoke a reaction, so he can then sit back and watch his handywork (very often on a Sunday). Generally, you reap what you sow, which is how I believe he keeps life interesting.

Keeping life interesting by spending time on a hifi forum. Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

It keeps life interesting "on the forum", when nothing much is happening......other than that, you are absolutely correct.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've been keeping life interesting spending far less time on the forum and whenever I look I can't believe how long this thread has trundled on. I'm very much of the opinion that if you enjoy listening to music through the LS50s that's great - go and enjoy listening to music on them. If not, don't buy them or listen using them - go with something you do like and listen to music on those instead. When you put it this simply the numbers are meaningless.

Anyway, back to my music.

 

[Freddy58]

I've been keeping life interesting spending far less time on the forum and whenever I look I can't believe how long this thread has trundled on. I'm very much of the opinion that if you enjoy listening to music through the LS50s that's great - go and enjoy listening to music on them. If not, don't buy them or listen using them - go with something you do like and listen to music on those instead. When you put it this simply the numbers are meaningless.

Anyway, back to my music.

And that is it in a nutshell

 

[shkumar4963]

As a very very happy owner of LS50's, and a fascinated reader of this forum, I really appreciated the comments of DavidF@FrankHarveyHiFi. They brought a bit of sanity to a discussion that was close to making out that they were basically a piece of clever marketing. Before buying the LS50's I studied the reviews very carefully. On purchase, the only surprise I got was positive - I found them at least as wonderful as the reviews suggested - so detailed, so transparent, so honest; incredibly musical. That said, they are brutally honest of the equipment they are partnered with - and I have had to tweak that equipment to really allow the LS50's to sing. Better speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables, power supply, and integrated amplifier - every improvement made an immediate impact. My system as a whole has just got better and better. I have not yet reached its ceiling. If I wish to I can improve it further. Of course there are much better speakers out there - at a price. But a well-constructed system built around the LS50 is a musical wonder- and for me it is one I am happy to afford.

 

[shkumar4963]

I've been keeping life interesting spending far less time on the forum and whenever I look I can't believe how long this thread has trundled on. I'm very much of the opinion that if you enjoy listening to music through the LS50s that's great - go and enjoy listening to music on them. If not, don't buy them or listen using them - go with something you do like and listen to music on those instead. When you put it this simply the numbers are meaningless.

Anyway, back to my music.

I thought the purpose of this thread was not to enjoy music but to help others. In fact, the forum can not help you enjoy the music. That is something you would need to do at your home.

So if the purpose is to help prospective and current users of LS50, we need to discuss all positive and negative attributes of LS50, how marketing hype may have contributed to many people buying this, and what can bring the best in its quality.

This thread is almost at the top of the Google search for LS50. So anyone thinking of buying LS50 will read this thread if they want to know what "real" people who own the speaker feel about it. And that includes people who love them, people who want to love them and looking for ways to improve performance (like me) and people who think it was just a marketing trick.

 

[pyrrhon]

All boils dwn to taste in the end. Cause I got a feeling looking at that line up it will unsettle my ears..

What, you think that an Elex-R and Apollo-R teamed with LS50s would be hard on the ears?

Last week I had a long listening session with Elex-R vs Naim 5si on Vienna beethoven and the Rega had more highs and the naim better bass and dynamics. That makes me think that Elex-R and Ls50 would also scratch my ears. Didnt you have to fiddle with cables because of that ? id surprised if you didnt look for a warm cable.

 

[shkumar4963]

Just visited your website David. Incredible selection and great website. Congratulations...

I had a few questions about amps and how they are spec'ed. More importantly how one can narrow the field of amps to audition.... Few questions come to mind:

1. with most speakers having more than .4% distortion, how important are distortion specs in amps?

2. With most speakers having frequency response of + and - 3dB and with room interactions probably much larger, why to pay extra for an amp that has much lower frequency response than .5 db?

3. My 100 wpc amp shows that for my listening levels, its volume control is at -40dB. Does that mean 100 wpc is sufficient for my listening preference?

4. What specs should I look for to select an amp to audition for my LS50. It is a lot of effort so at best I can audition two amps.

I would really appreciate your advise on them.

 

[lindsayt]

I think that published THD+N figures for amps are completely useless for deciding which ones to buy. You never see distortion measured for amps in the micro watt to milliwatt range, which is where I spend most of my time listening to my amps.

The differences in frequency response in amps are swamped by the differences in frequency response between speakers, rooms, placement of speakers within the room, and listening position in the room. What's most important in an amp for me, is how good the amps is at disappearing. At sounding like there's nothing between source and speakers.

The -40db volume figure is pretty meaningless as it all depends how strong a signal you're getting from your source and to a lesser extent how much current the speakers are sucking from the amp (most amps can't double their power output as speaker impedance halves). To determine how much power you need you could measure the peak volumes you listen at (with a calibrated meter) then look at the efficiency of your speakers and how far you sit from your speakers. Chances are 100 watts are a lot more than you will ever listen at - apart from the odd party blast.

LS50's work best with good quality solid state amps. The quality of an amp is pretty much independent of: price, max power, distortion specifications. There's a corelation between bass grip and damping factor for speakers. Some speakers benefit more than others from having high damping factor amps. There's also a slight corelation between amplifier weight and sound quality. So, spec wise, as a very rough and ready start try a heavy, high damping factor solid state amp for the LS50's.

The most important specification of all, is how good you think the amp sounds with your speakers, for the price paid.