KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[davedotco]

I think that published THD+N figures for amps are completely useless for deciding which ones to buy. You never see distortion measured for amps in the micro watt to milliwatt range, which is where I spend most of my time listening to my amps.

The differences in frequency response in amps are swamped by the differences in frequency response between speakers, rooms, placement of speakers within the room, and listening position in the room. What's most important in an amp for me, is how good the amps is at disappearing. At sounding like there's nothing between source and speakers.

The -40db volume figure is pretty meaningless as it all depends how strong a signal you're getting from your source and to a lesser extent how much current the speakers are sucking from the amp (most amps can't double their power output as speaker impedance halves). To determine how much power you need you could measure the peak volumes you listen at (with a calibrated meter) then look at the efficiency of your speakers and how far you sit from your speakers. Chances are 100 watts are a lot more than you will ever listen at - apart from the odd party blast.

LS50's work best with good quality solid state amps. The quality of an amp is pretty much independent of: price, max power, distortion specifications. There's a corelation between bass grip and damping factor for speakers. Some speakers benefit more than others from having high damping factor amps. There's also a slight corelation between amplifier weight and sound quality. So, spec wise, as a very rough and ready start try a heavy, high damping factor solid state amp for the LS50's.

The most important specification of all, is how good you think the amp sounds with your speakers, for the price paid.

Nice work.

Who are you? And what have you done with the real LindsayT?.......*shok*

 

[lindsayt]

Thank you for the slightly insulting ad hominen comment davedotco.

 

[Vladimir]

I think that was a big compliment actually. *wink*

 

[ID.]

This was my motivation for posting criticism in this thread. Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

If you want a speaker made by an engineer, a tinkerer, go to Richard Allen. If you want the BBC heritage that much, buy from Harbeth or an original from ebay. If you want something revolutionary, go to Vivid Audio, Cabasse, MBL etc. Every manufacturer has a forte. *wink*

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

 

[Esra]

I am enjoying my LS50 in a small room as much as my Kef R900 in a big room and I would only consider to upgrade my LS50 to Maggies 1.7 (not really because of their size) or Sonus Faber Olympica 1 as a next step mainly because of the looks and more possibilities in synergy with components.LS 50 are also fantastic for HT supported by sub.Nothing beats same speakers for all channels in HT especially for multichannel music and LS50 set a very high standard for this purpose.

All the praise in reviews is true and not marketing hype if you appreciate studio like monitors which make fun, nearly perfect natural and authentic bass,crisp,very detailed in stereo imaging left right and depth and pleasant treble.

These are very versatile and revealing speakers.You can tweak the sound to your like.That´s why other components in your system need more attention for synergy.I found class D and neutral SS amps in general work best with them supporting their mainly neutral character.The slightly sounded character makes the fun which distinguish them from pro studio monitors.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

If it is the same in Japan as it is here, the LS50s are available via all KEF dealers, whereas R Series is more restrictive. Also, LS50s are available mail order, whereas R Series is collect in store only. As such, we see far more sales of R Series than we do the LS50.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I found class D and neutral SS amps in general work best with them supporting their mainly neutral character.

Agreed.

 

[ID.]

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

If it is the same in Japan as it is here, the LS50s are available via all KEF dealers, whereas R Series is more restrictive. Also, LS50s are available mail order, whereas R Series is collect in store only. As such, we see far more sales of R Series than we do the LS50.

Distribution is a bit more limited than something like B&W, so it doesn't have that brand recognition factor beyond audiophiles that some brands have. Still, not that hard to get if you want to buy or audition some. Easier than PMC, at least. Everything is available net/mail order from dealers.

Personally I thought they were good, but as I own PMC DB1is, the main thing that would drive me to upgrade would be bass that digs deeper, and the LS50s wouldn't provide that, so they felt like more of a sideways step. It would've been interesting to hear them on the end of my class D amplification.

I've never spoken to anyone who sold theirs here, so I can only speculate about the cause. Maybe they wanted more bass. Maybe they didn't pair them with a beefy enough amp. Who knows. Maybe they just wanted to check them out. Just because a relatively large number appear at 2nd hand dealers doesn't mean that they are bad. There are lots of B&W speakers too, because of the volume of sales. A lot of Sennheiser HD650s. It can also just be coincidence that several people got the upgrade bug at around the same time and sold them on.

 

[Vladimir]

This was my motivation for posting criticism in this thread. Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

If you want a speaker made by an engineer, a tinkerer, go to Richard Allen. If you want the BBC heritage that much, buy from Harbeth or an original from ebay. If you want something revolutionary, go to Vivid Audio, Cabasse, MBL etc. Every manufacturer has a forte. *wink*

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

Far East as in China, Japan, Singapore, Vietnam etc. the region. Alan A. Shaw publicly says his healthy sales are mostly in East and South-East Asia, and I can only trust his word or not. Take it as you wish personally.

My friend (an audiophile) in Indonesia says they are all gone haywire over vintage hi-fi. Tannoy, Rogers, JBLs, KEFs etc. I have his word to trust and I've seen some of their ads and seller websites. It's like a magnet sucking in all the hi-end vintage hi-fi at all prices, at all cost. They pay mad money for stuff people in Europe and USA chuck in recycling centers, thrift stores, charities and the curb.

This is all my personal opinion or even psychosis and delusions. Read at your own risk. *blush*

 

[shkumar4963]

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

If it is the same in Japan as it is here, the LS50s are available via all KEF dealers, whereas R Series is more restrictive. Also, LS50s are available mail order, whereas R Series is collect in store only. As such, we see far more sales of R Series than we do the LS50.

Would you say that in your store, R300 sell more than LS50. Both are priced about the same. What ratio
would you guess between R300 and LS50 sales?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Would you say that in your store, R300 sell more than LS50. Both are priced about the same. What ratio would you guess between R300 and LS50 sales?

Because of what I have mentioned above, we would sell more R300s than LS50s, but we find that most people prefer to go for the R500 instead, as they're more slimline, and have better bass depth. We definitely sell more R500s than LS50s.

As I've mentioned above, anyone wanting to buy LS50s can visit any KEF dealer, order via any KEF dealer with a website, so we don't find many people travel to us to buy them. R Series is different - as there's only about 50 R Series dealers, more people travel to us to buy them.

 

[Covenanter]

Would you say that in your store, R300 sell more than LS50. Both are priced about the same. What ratio would you guess between R300 and LS50 sales?

Because of what I have mentioned above, we would sell more R300s than LS50s, but we find that most people prefer to go for the R500 instead, as they're more slimline, and have better bass depth. We definitely sell more R500s than LS50s.

As I've mentioned above, anyone wanting to buy LS50s can visit any KEF dealer, order via any KEF dealer with a website, so we don't find many people travel to us to buy them. R Series is different - as there's only about 50 R Series dealers, more people travel to us to buy them.

To balance this, my dealer here in Birmingham told me he sold many more LS50s than any other speaker.

Chris

 

[shkumar4963]

Would you say that in your store, R300 sell more than LS50. Both are priced about the same. What ratio would you guess between R300 and LS50 sales?

Because of what I have mentioned above, we would sell more R300s than LS50s, but we find that most people prefer to go for the R500 instead, as they're more slimline, and have better bass depth. We definitely sell more R500s than LS50s.

As I've mentioned above, anyone wanting to buy LS50s can visit any KEF dealer, order via any KEF dealer with a website, so we don't find many people travel to us to buy them. R Series is different - as there's only about 50 R Series dealers, more people travel to us to buy them.

R300 more than LS50? Really. I thought LS50 was the newer and hopefully better version of R300. They are about the same size and the same price.

What comments do you hear from people choosing R300 over LS50 and what do you hear from customers choosing LS50? Would be very intersting to get that perspective from you.

 

[Frank Harvey]

R300 more than LS50? Really. I thought LS50 was the newer and hopefully better version of R300. They are about the same size and the same price.

The two are quite different speakers, in my opinion. The LS50 is a one off as far as a range is concerned, not replacing anything. There are pros and cons to both, which will suit different people. The LS50 is noticeably smaller.

What comments do you hear from people choosing R300 over LS50 and what do you hear from customers choosing LS50? Would be very intersting to get that perspective from you.

Some people prefer the slightly more laid back nature of the R Series, particularly those who aren't used to a more neutral sound, and are probably used to a fuller sound from larger bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. Obviously bass response is a bit different, and many like the extra bass output (depth and SPL) of the R300, particularly if they're into heavier music like D&B. Some might choose them on their listening distance - the LS50 allows you to sit as close as you like - a little more care is needed not to sit too close to the R300 as you have the separate bass driver covering 400Hz and below. Some just don't like the look or colour scheme of the LS50!

 

[BigH]

Would you say that in your store, R300 sell more than LS50. Both are priced about the same. What ratio would you guess between R300 and LS50 sales?

Because of what I have mentioned above, we would sell more R300s than LS50s, but we find that most people prefer to go for the R500 instead, as they're more slimline, and have better bass depth. We definitely sell more R500s than LS50s.

As I've mentioned above, anyone wanting to buy LS50s can visit any KEF dealer, order via any KEF dealer with a website, so we don't find many people travel to us to buy them. R Series is different - as there's only about 50 R Series dealers, more people travel to us to buy them.

R300 more than LS50? Really. I thought LS50 was the newer and hopefully better version of R300. They are about the same size and the same price.

What comments do you hear from people choosing R300 over LS50 and what do you hear from customers choosing LS50? Would be very intersting to get that perspective from you.

the ls50 is not a new version of the R300, the R300 is a 3 way speaker and the LS50 a 2 way, the R300 is of course somewhat larger, it's also about 25% more expensive. The LS 50 is Kef's Anniversary speaker, not sure if it was intended to be in production for so long.

 

[Native_bon]

All boils dwn to taste in the end. Cause I got a feeling looking at that line up it will unsettle my ears..

What, you think that an Elex-R and Apollo-R teamed with LS50s would be hard on the ears?

Last week I had a long listening session with Elex-R vs Naim 5si on Vienna beethoven and the Rega had more highs and the naim better bass and dynamics. That makes me think that Elex-R and Ls50 would also scratch my ears. Didnt you have to fiddle with cables because of that ? id surprised if you didnt look for a warm cable.

This is the problem, some think their ears like what other ears like. What sounds hard to one may sound good to another. SIMPLES!!

 

[Reijer]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike and immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it.

I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

 

[antskip]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike en immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it. I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

"childlike", immature", "unbelieveably ugly"?! Surely one can express dislike of something without personifying it and then using words of personal abuse.

 

[Reijer]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike en immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it. I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

"childlike", immature", "unbelieveably ugly"?! Surely one can express dislike of something without personifying it and then using words of personal abuse.

Just expressing my opinion in a Dutch way. Probably to direct for a British forum.....

 

[shkumar4963]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike and immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it.

I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

Not sure what you mean by adult speaker. Did you mean more complete speaker - meaning it covers more of the musical frequency band. Please explain...so that your thoughts are clear to me..

Also let me know what you meant from child like.

Fortunately, I understand the word "ugly"... and I can see how some people may feel that it is ugly... I frankly like the shape..

 

[shkumar4963]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike and immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it.

I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

Not sure what you mean by adult speaker. Did you mean more complete speaker - meaning it covers more of the musical frequency band. Please explain...so that your thoughts are clear to me..

Also let me know what you meant from child like.

Fortunately, I understand the word "ugly"... and I can see how some people may feel that it is ugly... I frankly like the shape..

 

[shkumar4963]

R300 more than LS50? Really. I thought LS50 was the newer and hopefully better version of R300. They are about the same size and the same price.

The two are quite different speakers, in my opinion. The LS50 is a one off as far as a range is concerned, not replacing anything. There are pros and cons to both, which will suit different people. The LS50 is noticeably smaller.

What comments do you hear from people choosing R300 over LS50 and what do you hear from customers choosing LS50? Would be very intersting to get that perspective from you.

Some people prefer the slightly more laid back nature of the R Series, particularly those who aren't used to a more neutral sound, and are probably used to a fuller sound from larger bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. Obviously bass response is a bit different, and many like the extra bass output (depth and SPL) of the R300, particularly if they're into heavier music like D&B. Some might choose them on their listening distance - the LS50 allows you to sit as close as you like - a little more care is needed not to sit too close to the R300 as you have the separate bass driver covering 400Hz and below. Some just don't like the look or colour scheme of the LS50!

Yes that makes sense. In my short audition at a dealer that had both speakers set up on a wall shelf (2 inches from the back wall), so not an optimum set up, R300 showed a bit more Loose bass then LS50. The bass was mudding the voice of the singer. R300 was sounding a bit Boxy or boomy. But like i said the set up was not very optimum and at home they may have sounded different.

 

[ID.]

This was my motivation for posting criticism in this thread. Not saying they are bad speakers, but that they are flawed equally as any other speaker of similar design and they do not imploy "revolutionary" engineering. It's all BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC, BBC... ad infinitum. The Far East loves the BBC story and apparently everyone else. It's all hype, meant to be from the day they sat in the board room and decided KEF deserves a piece of the BBC LS3/5A cake since they supplied the drivers to all iterations of the broadcasting van monitor. The LS50 is not a speaker that was made by an engineer and suddenly got all the hype accumulated because the people heard it and it was that good. Nope. It is a speaker born inside a marketing boardroom, not an engineering desk, just like everyone else.

If you want a speaker made by an engineer, a tinkerer, go to Richard Allen. If you want the BBC heritage that much, buy from Harbeth or an original from ebay. If you want something revolutionary, go to Vivid Audio, Cabasse, MBL etc. Every manufacturer has a forte. *wink*

I'd be interested to see regional sales figures. In Japan, the few dealers I spoke to said they didn't sell in such great numbers, and I've seen relatively high numbers of them for sale 2nd hand not long after release.

Far East as in China, Japan, Singapore, Vietnam etc. the region. Alan A. Shaw publicly says his healthy sales are mostly in East and South-East Asia, and I can only trust his word or not. Take it as you wish personally.

My friend (an audiophile) in Indonesia says they are all gone haywire over vintage hi-fi. Tannoy, Rogers, JBLs, KEFs etc. I have his word to trust and I've seen some of their ads and seller websites. It's like a magnet sucking in all the hi-end vintage hi-fi at all prices, at all cost. They pay mad money for stuff people in Europe and USA chuck in recycling centers, thrift stores, charities and the curb.

This is all my personal opinion or even psychosis and delusions. Read at your own risk. *blush*

No, I found it interesting because all I have to go on are the odd conversation with small dealers and what appears in stores, both new and 2nd hand. I wasn't trying to refute it. I would genuinely like to see figures that gave a clearer picture of the auidophile market here. The Japanese market is a strange one with the impact of small houses, but also some very hardcore purchasers of vintage and very large kit. If you ever recall some of the comments davedotco has made about vintage JBLs and Japan that might give you an idea. As far as speakers go, British brands seem to be held in the highest regard together with JBLs. I see a fair bit of interest in the classic BBC derived/inspired speakers (Harbeth, Spendor, etc.), which should work well in small spaces, but also a lot of love for really big, high-end B&W.

 

[Reijer]

To my ears the R300 is a much more complete and adult speaker. The LS50 is just to childlike and immature, dispite all the praises people sing about it.

I'd rather put my savings in the R300 than in the LS50 which is IMHO unbelievable ugly to.......

Not sure what you mean by adult speaker. Did you mean more complete speaker - meaning it covers more of the musical frequency band. Please explain...so that your thoughts are clear to me..

Also let me know what you meant from child like.

Fortunately, I understand the word "ugly"... and I can see how some people may feel that it is ugly... I frankly like the shape..

Hi Shkumar.

To me the LS50 is missing a lot in it's performance, it's not complete to my ears (child). The R300 has a more complete performance (adult).

I've heard both speakers on a Rotel pre-power setup and on the Arcam A19. In both cases the R300 were much better performing, more complete, greater scale, more adult.

And the looks; every man it's taste (and opinion)...

 

[Freddy58]

OK seems like the consensus from this group is that for a large room like mine (50 sq. meter), LS50 are not the right fit. R500 is not an option as it is too mig for my wife. So either R300 or LS50 with a sub. And to be honest, all reviews did hint at that, saying "For a small speaker, they have decent bass profile"

Lets hear from this esteemed panel what I should do. Going to R300 will cost me an additional $200 dollars as a return fee on LS50.

Dave, Harvey, Vladimir, others: what do you guys think?

I wouldn't presume to tell you which way to go, as speakers are very personal. I did though much prefer the R300's to the LS50's, which is why I went for them. To me, they have a much bigger sense of scale, are more refined, and go deeper. I also listened to the R500's, and to be honest, I didn't think there was much to choose between those and the 300's. It's worth bearing in mind that the 500's are harder to drive, so the 300's would be a better choice in this instance, imo.