Is vibration over rated in solid state electronics

[andyjm]

It saddens me that so much scorn is poured on these types of products. Issues with vibration in all equipment, both solid state and otherwise, is extremely well known and scientifically documented.

Perhaps a link to a study would help the discussion?

http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2328.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AKjnOnhGDXYC&pg=PA460&lpg=PA460&dq=DAC+oscillators+vibration&source=bl&ots=S8zPdWNb1L&sig=E2xjxxUHAu54swBld4ZWJpT_gKs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCmvr_79jVAhVhCsAKHUdSBDwQ6AEIPTAD#v=onepage&q=DAC%20oscillators%20vibration&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_noise

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Of course vibration effects equipment, and in extreme specific cases can generate phase noise / jitter in crystal oscillators (I note the paper you linked to was using GHz oscillators with multiple G accelerations in airbourne early warning radar as an example).

I meant can you link to a study that shows that these effects can produce audible artifacts in a domestic environment.

I am afraid that this is typical of questionable marketing in HiFi - find a scientific sounding term (skin effect is a good example), that while real, makes absolutely no difference in a domestic audio environment - and then sell something to fix it.

 

[Vladimir]

Vlad & Al ears: just out of curiosity would it be mental to place a small subwoofer on a suspended wooden floor or can some form of decoupling work (sorbothane feet, auralex sub dude)?

Suspended wooden floors are horrendous bass resonators. I'd use thick bitumen sheet under the sub.

 

[davedotco]

I expected someone to bring this up as this is pretty much the percieved wisdom.

Unfortunately it is also quite contrary to my experience, spiking equipment in the way I describe invariable reduces induced viration (from the music say) as expected, but it also reduced structural born vibration such as footfall.

The effect was simply to tighten up the bass which became faster and more articulate, obviously record players benefited most but there appeared to be real differences to CD players such as top end Micromega and ARC models that cycled through my system.

I have never heard resilient supports such as sorbothane make a worthwhile contribution yet the top of the line siesmic sinks of various generations all seem to fork well. I think this subject is rather more complex than it seems.

 

[Leif]

I am afraid that this is typical of questionable marketing in HiFi - find a scientific sounding term (skin effect is a good example), that while real, makes absolutely no difference in a domestic audio environment - and then sell something to fix it.

Exactly. It also helps to make the unit look incredibly stylish, with loads of lovely shiney CNC machined ,metal, making it look really well made and designed. I bet some of these things could be housed in a biscuit tin and they'd sound the same.

 

[Leif]

I expected someone to bring this up as this is pretty much the percieved wisdom.

Unfortunately it is also quite contrary to my experience, spiking equipment in the way I describe invariable reduces induced viration (from the music say) as expected, but it also reduced structural born vibration such as footfall.

The effect was simply to tighten up the bass which became faster and more articulate, obviously record players benefited most but there appeared to be real differences to CD players such as top end Micromega and ARC models that cycled through my system.

I have never heard resilient supports such as sorbothane make a worthwhile contribution yet the top of the line siesmic sinks of various generations all seem to fork well. I think this subject is rather more complex than it seems.

My understanding is that although spikes couple a speaker to the ground, they significantly reduce the area of contact, hence they reduce the coupling when compared to simply resting the item on the surface.

 

[Gazzip]

It saddens me that so much scorn is poured on these types of products. Issues with vibration in all equipment, both solid state and otherwise, is extremely well known and scientifically documented.

Perhaps a link to a study would help the discussion?

http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2328.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AKjnOnhGDXYC&pg=PA460&lpg=PA460&dq=DAC+oscillators+vibration&source=bl&ots=S8zPdWNb1L&sig=E2xjxxUHAu54swBld4ZWJpT_gKs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCmvr_79jVAhVhCsAKHUdSBDwQ6AEIPTAD#v=onepage&q=DAC%20oscillators%20vibration&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_noise

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Of course vibration effects equipment, and in extreme specific cases can generate phase noise / jitter in crystal oscillators (I note the paper you linked to was using GHz oscillators with multiple G accelerations in airbourne early warning radar as an example).

I meant can you link to a study that shows that these effects can produce audible artifacts in a domestic environment.

I am afraid that this is typical of questionable marketing in HiFi - find a scientific sounding term (skin effect is a good example), that while real, makes absolutely no difference in a domestic audio environment - and then sell something to fix it.

Andyjm, I am not selling anything.

The report concludes that structure bourne vibration causes an increase in phase modulation noise in oscillators which can lead to system failiure, and that it is therefore very important to select components that show low phase changes under vibration in order to build a system with low vibration sensitivity. This was not in multiple G applications as your "headline grabbing" statement seems to imply, but in low velocity situations. Airborne noise vibration pick up in a stationary object is a "low velocity situation" in acceleration terms. System failiure in this context was "blurring of targets". Still working but blurring. Sounds strangley familiar... like a description of audio jitter perhaps?

Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the engineering reports prepared by audio DAC manufacturers to confirm that their oscillators are not vibration sensitive? Funnily enough I haven't seen any of that data? Perhaps they don't test them for that and maybe that is why jitter is always measurable and audible in domestic DACs. Perhaps there is little to no engineering involved in them at all and you get what you are given with an off the shelf DAC chip and oscillator.

 

[Vladimir]

I expected someone to bring this up as this is pretty much the percieved wisdom.

Unfortunately it is also quite contrary to my experience, spiking equipment in the way I describe invariable reduces induced viration (from the music say) as expected, but it also reduced structural born vibration such as footfall.

The effect was simply to tighten up the bass which became faster and more articulate, obviously record players benefited most but there appeared to be real differences to CD players such as top end Micromega and ARC models that cycled through my system.

I have never heard resilient supports such as sorbothane make a worthwhile contribution yet the top of the line siesmic sinks of various generations all seem to fork well. I think this subject is rather more complex than it seems.

We had this discussion when I was trying out solutions for my JBL LSR305s in a desktop setup. I went with coupling, which made the desk 'sing along' and you suggested loose decoupling with sorbothane and such, even though there is some minor bluring of stere imaging, treble softening etc. I solved the problem by using sand, which spends the excess energy on its way from the speakers, thus less vibration ends in the desk.

If you had suspended floors you'd also experience the 'sing along' effect. If you had very microphonic tube amp and undamped TT stacked on a spiked rack, your speakers will send vibrations through the floor to the rack and your vibration sensitive equipment, since everything is now coupled together.

You using granite slab and spikes and experiencing tighter bass is because of geometry change, not because of coupling to the floor. You raised the height, making sound reflections in the room change patterns, in this case to your preference. I did the same with 3 layers of marble so I can reduce boom I get from the ceiling and corner reflections. (8ft ceiling, 70Hz boom standard) This is completely different topic altogether, room reflections and vibration.

 

[Al ears]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

 

[davedotco]

I expected someone to bring this up as this is pretty much the percieved wisdom.

Unfortunately it is also quite contrary to my experience, spiking equipment in the way I describe invariable reduces induced viration (from the music say) as expected, but it also reduced structural born vibration such as footfall.

The effect was simply to tighten up the bass which became faster and more articulate, obviously record players benefited most but there appeared to be real differences to CD players such as top end Micromega and ARC models that cycled through my system.

I have never heard resilient supports such as sorbothane make a worthwhile contribution yet the top of the line siesmic sinks of various generations all seem to fork well. I think this subject is rather more complex than it seems.

We had this discussion when I was trying out solutions for my JBL LSR305s in a desktop setup. I went with coupling, which made the desk 'sing along' and you suggested loose decoupling with sorbothane and such, even though there is some minor bluring of stere imaging, treble softening etc. I solved the problem by using sand, which spends the excess energy on its way from the speakers, thus less vibration ends in the desk.

If you had suspended floors you'd also experience the 'sing along' effect. If you had very microphonic tube amp and undamped TT stacked on a spiked rack, your speakers will send vibrations through the floor to the rack and your vibration sensitive equipment, since everything is now coupled together.

You using granite slab and spikes and experiencing tighter bass is because of geometry change, not because of coupling to the floor. You raised the height, making sound reflections in the room change patterns, in this case to your preference. I did the same with 3 layers of marble so I can reduce boom I get from the ceiling and corner reflections. (8ft ceiling, 70Hz boom standard) This is completely different topic altogether, room reflections and vibration.

The desktop situation is quite unique as you are sitting close, I used rubber Audio Engine stands under my Seiwin desktop speakers which worked well, so I guess that is an example of resilient supports working well.

I was really talking about the use of resilient support vs spikes on electronic components rather than speakers, where I have never heard the resilient supports be effective.

Regarding my speakers, when I got them I had to have a bit of a play with them. I brought them out into the room and toed them in to focus the sounstage, to protect the wooden floor I used the granite boards. Replacing the spikes with the rubber feed I planned to use for 'normal' use there was a slight loss of bass tightness general focus.

Since I could neither leave the speakers in their optimum position nor sit in the 'sweet spot', I placed the speakers in their normal position either side of the tv (rubber feet, not spiked and no granite) and adjusted the balance to suit this and my 'usual' listening position close to the back wall. There is no soundstage bar a bit of left to right, but the sound opens out nicely into the room and is tight and rhythmic across all genres. Although only about 8 inches from the back wall, there is no discernable overhang in the bass and boom is under control unless turned up to levels I would simply not use.

 

[ellisdj]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

When I got Sorbuthane it was very cheap ones off ebay - but how much did you pay so I can suggest on the price?

 

[Electro]

Is this the sound of jitter and can you hear it?

http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like

Well I got 2 of the originals right first time and second time on the third one so I supose I can hear it and that is on computer speakers !

 

[Al ears]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

When I got Sorbuthane it was very cheap ones off ebay - but how much did you pay so I can suggest on the price?

Cannot recall as purchased so long ago. Just wondered what you were going to suggest that wouldn't break the bank.

 

[Pedro]

@Vlad: Thanks...that's what I thought. I wasn't planning on buying a sub but I was offered one...

I'll use the money to buy more music instead

 

[Andrewjvt]

As ive read the whole thread last night I have 2 questions.

If the dac is effected by vibrations (causing jitters) but most probably inaudible...

1. How come in other threads people have claimed vibration pads/feet have changed or focused the sound so that the user can clearly hear a difference? Please explain

2 wherethe hell are all these vibrations comming from?

I think there is an opportunity here to make and sell audiophile vibration meters to test vibration on equipment with avionic/military grade components

1. Some people in this thread claim the jitter is inaudible. I for one think it is audible and I am by no means alone.

2. The air (airborne soundwaves from your music) and the structure of your property (impact vibration from your music).

It saddens me that so much scorn is poured on these types of products. Issues with vibration in all equipment, both solid state and otherwise, is extremely well known and scientifically documented. The simple and obvious reason that mitigating measures such as this are not always included as factory fit items by lower/mid end manufacturers is because the cost of including them vs the tiny gain in audible improvement is not worth it to them or their customers, most of whom are not "audiophiles" (God I hate that word...). Why would you put £1000 worth of StillPoints on a £179 Denon DM40? You wouldn't now would you.

Audiophile (there it goes again) tweaks are usually about mitigation of unwanted artifacts. Preventing as well as possible vibration, jitter, electrical noise, RF interference etc. Mitigate enough of these "inaudible" issues and the sum of many small improvements may make an audible improvement, or so the theory goes.

I don't want to offend anybody on here (but I know I am going to with this statement, so sorry in advance), but most of your systems are simply not revealing enough to benefit from such small improvements, and your listening spaces are not acoustically up to it either.

 

Yes we know you have a nice expensive hifi (you may also have more money than common sense regarding hifi) but please explain me what is the signal to noise ratio of your dac?
Ive looked and they don't reveal it.

So please explain how my benchmark dac 3 with one of the best signal to noise ratios of almost any dac with beyer dynamic headphones would not be revealing enough? Ive played the drums on the casework while playing and I've heard nothing bad. Ive also heard mistakes in certain songs that wernt meant to be in the mix so how come i can hear this on my cheap non revealing system?

Also on your main speakers are you using a special tweeter that only your speaker has (to make it better revealing) than the cheaper pmc book shelf monitors? Then is it only bass extention your gaining over smaller but equally quality monitors?

Just saying a system is not as revealing because of cost is dumb.
Not saying you dont have a good setup though
id want it

 

[CnoEvil]

Exactly what I had to do with my floorstanders....as I cannot afford those Townshend Seismic Sinks... ;-)

Like you, I couldn't afford Townshend, or the beautifully made Track Audio solutions.....so went (very effectively) with Auralex Grammas (placed on Granite Worktop Savers and surrounded by wooden strips (for stability). Transformed the bass (I have a suspended wooden floor over a 4' space).

 

[Al ears]

Exactly what I had to do with my floorstanders....as I cannot afford those Townshend Seismic Sinks... ;-)

Like you, I couldn't afford Townshend, or the beautifully made Track Audio solutions.....so went (very effectively) with Auralex Grammas (placed on Granite Worktop Savers and surrounded by wooden strips (for stability). Transformed the bass (I have a suspended wooden floor over a 4' space).

Thanks Cno I have looked into those but, due to size, the Iso Series Mopad XLs seem to be the ones I may invest in.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Exactly what I had to do with my floorstanders....as I cannot afford those Townshend Seismic Sinks...   ;-)

Like you, I couldn't afford Townshend, or the beautifully made Track Audio solutions.....so went (very effectively) with Auralex Grammas (placed on Granite Worktop Savers and surrounded by wooden strips (for stability). Transformed the bass (I have a suspended wooden floor over a 4' space).

Thanks Cno I have looked into those but, due to size, the Iso Series Mopad XLs seem to be the ones I may invest in.

CnoEvil and Al

I've just moved into a new house with suspended wooden floors.

I have Partington broadsides.
Please tell me best set up as above

I have not fitted the spikes yet or filled the columns with atabites.
Thanks

 

[Al ears]

Exactly what I had to do with my floorstanders....as I cannot afford those Townshend Seismic Sinks... ;-)

Like you, I couldn't afford Townshend, or the beautifully made Track Audio solutions.....so went (very effectively) with Auralex Grammas (placed on Granite Worktop Savers and surrounded by wooden strips (for stability). Transformed the bass (I have a suspended wooden floor over a 4' space).

Thanks Cno I have looked into those but, due to size, the Iso Series Mopad XLs seem to be the ones I may invest in.

CnoEvil and Al

I've just moved into a new house with suspended wooden floors.

I have Partington broadsides. Please tell me best set up as above

I have not fitted the spikes yet or filled the columns with atabites. Thanks

Perhaps then you and I, and Cno are in a similar situation. The Partingtons may or may not benefit from atabites, in my case I found they made little difference but was, at the time, using them downstairs on a solid floor. They are now under my home-theatre front speakers.

You don't say what speakers you have on your stands but I would suggest that some form of isolation material material underneath would be beneficial but it could prove awkward trying to support a stand-mount rather than a floorstanding speaker.

The difference in height of this material may effect sound quality as the tweeter would be raised compared to the position you currently use it in. The solution I am looking at adds two inches but, in my case, that may prove beneficial.

I would suggest you first try replacing your spikes with large 'half-balls' of sorbothane as this will, under compression, only add about 1cm to the height of your speakers.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Exactly what I had to do with my floorstanders....as I cannot afford those Townshend Seismic Sinks...   ;-)

Like you, I couldn't afford Townshend, or the beautifully made Track Audio solutions.....so went (very effectively) with Auralex Grammas (placed on Granite Worktop Savers and surrounded by wooden strips (for stability). Transformed the bass (I have a suspended wooden floor over a 4' space).

Thanks Cno I have looked into those but, due to size, the Iso Series Mopad XLs seem to be the ones I may invest in.

CnoEvil and Al

I've just moved into a new house with suspended wooden floors.

I have Partington broadsides. Please tell me best set up as above

I have not fitted the spikes yet or filled the columns with atabites. Thanks

Perhaps then you and I, and Cno are in a similar situation. The Partingtons may or may not benefit from atabites, in my case I found they made little difference but was, at the time, using them downstairs on a solid floor. They are now under my home-theatre front speakers.

You don't say what speakers you have on your stands but I would suggest that some form of isolation material material underneath would be beneficial but it could prove awkward trying to support a stand-mount rather than a floorstanding speaker.

The difference in height of this material may effect sound quality as the tweeter would be raised compared to the position you currently use it in. The solution I am looking at adds two inches but, in my case, that may prove beneficial.

I would suggest you first try replacing your spikes with large 'half-balls' of sorbothane as this will, under compression, only add about 1cm to the height of your speakers.

Will look into this when the wife stops slave driving me

Can you post pictures?

Im using jbl studio monitors atm

 

[ellisdj]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

When I got Sorbuthane it was very cheap ones off ebay - but how much did you pay so I can suggest on the price?

Cannot recall as purchased so long ago. Just wondered what you were going to suggest that wouldn't break the bank.

I have lost the conversation trail here - what do you want them for speakers or kit? It makes a difference

 

[andyjm]

It saddens me that so much scorn is poured on these types of products. Issues with vibration in all equipment, both solid state and otherwise, is extremely well known and scientifically documented.

Perhaps a link to a study would help the discussion?

http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2328.pdf

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AKjnOnhGDXYC&pg=PA460&lpg=PA460&dq=DAC+oscillators+vibration&source=bl&ots=S8zPdWNb1L&sig=E2xjxxUHAu54swBld4ZWJpT_gKs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCmvr_79jVAhVhCsAKHUdSBDwQ6AEIPTAD#v=onepage&q=DAC%20oscillators%20vibration&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_noise

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Of course vibration effects equipment, and in extreme specific cases can generate phase noise / jitter in crystal oscillators (I note the paper you linked to was using GHz oscillators with multiple G accelerations in airbourne early warning radar as an example).

I meant can you link to a study that shows that these effects can produce audible artifacts in a domestic environment.

I am afraid that this is typical of questionable marketing in HiFi - find a scientific sounding term (skin effect is a good example), that while real, makes absolutely no difference in a domestic audio environment - and then sell something to fix it.

Andyjm, I am not selling anything.

The report concludes that structure bourne vibration causes an increase in phase modulation noise in oscillators which can lead to system failiure, and that it is therefore very important to select components that show low phase changes under vibration in order to build a system with low vibration sensitivity. This was not in multiple G applications as your "headline grabbing" statement seems to imply, but in low velocity situations. Airborne noise vibration pick up in a stationary object is a "low velocity situation" in acceleration terms. System failiure in this context was "blurring of targets". Still working but blurring. Sounds strangley familiar... like a description of audio jitter perhaps?

Perhaps you could point me in the direction of the engineering reports prepared by audio DAC manufacturers to confirm that their oscillators are not vibration sensitive? Funnily enough I haven't seen any of that data? Perhaps they don't test them for that and maybe that is why jitter is always measurable and audible in domestic DACs. Perhaps there is little to no engineering involved in them at all and you get what you are given with an off the shelf DAC chip and oscillator.

Gazzip,

I don't know if you have designed stuff for a living, but one of the first things you find out as an engineer is everything makes a difference, but not every difference matters. The trick is designing something at a price buyers can afford where the bits that matter have been taken care of.

Just because jitter is real, can effect the the audio output of DACs, and that crystal oscillators are susceptible to vibration induced jitter does not mean that vibration can effect the output of a DAC in an audible manner in a domestic setting. Equally, that no manufacturer has produced a report confirming the vibration sensitivity of their equipment means nothing - am I to assume that a DAC is sensitive to altitude, just because no manufacturer has produced a report on the sensitivity of their DAC to air pressure?

 

[Vladimir]

If you boys have stands with hollow stems, definitely fill them up at least half way with dry play sand. I've never used atabites but people say they are more efficient than sand and lead shots. You get a bucket for 30 quid on amazon.

Important for suspended wooden floors - you want to DECOUPLE speakers from the floor, otherwise the bass energy transfers to the floor which acts as a bass resonator (has acavity, flexible wood). It becomes a third speaker in the room.

 

[Al ears]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

When I got Sorbuthane it was very cheap ones off ebay - but how much did you pay so I can suggest on the price?

Cannot recall as purchased so long ago. Just wondered what you were going to suggest that wouldn't break the bank.

I have lost the conversation trail here - what do you want them for speakers or kit? It makes a difference

We, or I have decided that they are not required for equipment. I was talking floorstanding speakers.

 

[Al ears]

CnoEvil and Al

I've just moved into a new house with suspended wooden floors.

I have Partington broadsides. Please tell me best set up as above

I have not fitted the spikes yet or filled the columns with atabites. Thanks

There is a bit of trial and error involved.

Your main goal is to prevent vibrations being transmitted through the stands, into the floor.....so:

1. Filling - Fill (or part fill) the stands with a material which will absorb vibrations. I agree with AE....you don't need to add lots of extra mass with Atabites (which could make the sound a bit bass heavy and plodding)....your stands are already very heavy.

IMO. Rice is a good choice, as it won't add lots of extra mass; kiln-dried sand (which you may have to further dry in the oven) also works very well. It's what I use, but I wanted to add a bit of extra mass to my stands. With sand you have to experiment with how far to fill (make sure you weigh it, so you have the same amount in each stand.

2. Base platform - I use 2 Granite Worktop savers under each stand.....it gives the option of putting a Sorbothane shhet between the two if have a very ingrained problem.

3. Bottom of stand - I tuse 4 thin slabs of Blu-Tac (in each corner), to stick the bottom of the stand to the Granite (so no spikes). This makes the whole thing very stable....much more so than spikes into spike-shoes sliding about on the Granite.

4. Bottom of Speaker - I use Valhalla Technology isolation pads (1 in each corner) between the speaker and the stand, plus 1 blob of Blu-Tac (centre of speaker), to stop the speaker sliding off. You chose the Valhalla product based on the weight of the speaker.

http://valhalla-technology.dk/en/3-speaker-feet

This is trial and error....you might, for example be happy with 1 Granite slab under each speaker and no Valhalla Pads. Sometimes you want to dump as much vibration from the speaker as possible into the Stand (so it can be absorbed); and sometimes it works better to isolate the speaker from the stand as much as possible.

(I use Auralex under my Floorstanders)

Interesting. I would consider this overkill. if you have those pads isolating your speakers from the stands why would filling the stands make any differnce?

I would have thought a better, and cheaper, approach would be to actually couple speakers and stands together as one unit and then simply isolate this (as you have from base of stand down to floor). Have you tried this option?

APOLOGIES: I missed reading the last part of your post..... I would favour this approach but whatever works for you....... ;-)

 

[ellisdj]

Sorbuthane is rubber there are much better solutions than this.

Can you list some of similar cost that I might try?

When I got Sorbuthane it was very cheap ones off ebay - but how much did you pay so I can suggest on the price?

Cannot recall as purchased so long ago. Just wondered what you were going to suggest that wouldn't break the bank.

I have lost the conversation trail here - what do you want them for speakers or kit? It makes a difference

We, or I have decided that they are not required for equipment. I was talking floorstanding speakers.

What I would recommend I dont think is correct for speakers necessarily as they are not fixed to them in any way.

However ruling out the use on kit is up to you -I would say go to / or next time you are at a decent dealer get a demo of stillpoints - have your view changed that day forever