Is vibration over rated in solid state electronics

[newlash09]

Hi all..

I read some reviews on equipment racks where the reviewer found that they tighten the image and some even found that they increase clarity.

Considering that both a streamer and amplifier have no moving parts, will they actually vibrate when in use. I understand that cd players vibrate, but without a cd player in the chain, is there still vibration.

What is the harm in placing one directly above the other. Apart from heat dissipation issues, is there something else in play hurting the sound. Some of those racks are as expensive as an amplifier themselves. So is it just all for aesthetics or is there sound reason to invest in one for sonic gains. Thanks for your time.

 

[Vladimir]

Engineers work all day innovating solutions. Marketing people work all day innovating problems. It's called creating a market niche. If the solution to the proposed problem is simple yet extremely expensive, then it's likely a scam/snake oil. Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Of course there will be people writing their thoughts in this thread who absolutely disagree from experience. Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

Or maybe I'm the fool enjoying the comfort of skepticism. Who knows. It's 1am and I'm commenting vibrations.

 

[newlash09]

Thats what I almost thought. I can understand that a rack can save space by vertical stacking and also provide cable management for that tidy look, and it helps if it can look good doing all that. But just because a peice of furniture is being used in a hifi setup, doesn't have to mean it has sonic benefits too. If using a spinning disc then maybe yes. But if not, then I fail to understand where the vibration comes from.

 

[davidf]

Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Oh I don't know, that could be quite a good example for the opposite. Big manufacturers don't really want to get involved in things like spikes that could lead to injury or maybe even a court case, so stick with normal feet, whether or not they're detrimental.

 

[tonky]

Engineers work all day innovating solutions. Marketing people work all day innovating problems. It's called creating a market niche. If the solution to the proposed problem is simple yet extremely expensive, then it's likely a scam/snake oil. Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Of course there will be people writing their thoughts in this thread who absolutely disagree from experience. Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

Or maybe I'm the fool enjoying the comfort of skepticism. Who knows. It's 1am and I'm commenting vibrations.

It is late - but a true comment

a +1 from tonky

 

[Al ears]

Engineers work all day innovating solutions. Marketing people work all day innovating problems. It's called creating a market niche. If the solution to the proposed problem is simple yet extremely expensive, then it's likely a scam/snake oil. Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Of course there will be people writing their thoughts in this thread who absolutely disagree from experience. Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.

Or maybe I'm the fool enjoying the comfort of skepticism. Who knows. It's 1am and I'm commenting vibrations.

Excellent, brave man. I admire your dedication to the cause... ;-)

 

[Al ears]

Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Oh I don't know, that could be quite a good example for the opposite. Big manufacturers don't really want to get involved in things like spikes that could lead to injury or maybe even a court case, so stick with normal feet, whether or not they're detrimental.

Surely most big manufacturers have a speaker range in which they are quite happy to include spikey things? ;-)

I might add that one of the reasons spikes are employed on a rack system it to stop those additional shelves sliding arbout.... ;-)

And that's about all they are doing.

 

[Leif]

Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Oh I don't know, that could be quite a good example for the opposite. Big manufacturers don't really want to get involved in things like spikes that could lead to injury or maybe even a court case, so stick with normal feet, whether or not they're detrimental.

Scissors manufacturers seems to survive, as do makes of kitchen knives. I have some spikey feet for my photographic tripod.

I have met countless sales and marketing wonks, and they are (in terms of their product related claims) collectively about as trustworthy as Harold Shipman. The clever ways that they suggest their product provides improvements without actually lying and hence breaking advertising rules is impressive.

If a HiFi rack looks nice,is well built, and not unreasonably priced, then it deserves to sell even if there are spurious claims about its extra-anti-wobble-ness. And who knows, when the San Andreas fault goes off, these fancy racks might save a few HiFi systems from being destroyed ...

 

[Al ears]

Example, simple spiked feet that prevent vibration in SS gear. If they made such a difference, big commercial manufacturers would have it in their offer, not just one man cottage hifi operations. If the niche market expands offers larger scale lucrative oportunity, it's common for big manufacturers to begin practicing audio woo themselves simply because it pays off and is in demand.

Oh I don't know, that could be quite a good example for the opposite. Big manufacturers don't really want to get involved in things like spikes that could lead to injury or maybe even a court case, so stick with normal feet, whether or not they're detrimental.

Scissors manufacturers seems to survive, as do makes of kitchen knives. I have some spikey feet for my photographic tripod.

I have met countless sales and marketing wonks, and they are (in terms of their product related claims) collectively about as trustworthy as Harold Shipman. The clever ways that they suggest their product provides improvements without actually lying and hence breaking advertising rules is impressive.

If a HiFi rack looks nice,is well built, and not unreasonably priced, then it deserves to sell even if there are spurious claims about its extra-anti-wobble-ness. And who knows, when the San Andreas fault goes off, these fancy racks might save a few HiFi systems from being destroyed ...

Now there's something the marketing departments apppear to have missed.... ;-)

 

[ellisdj]

Did a blind test. Heard consistent differences.

Turns out all that was being changed is the platform the cd player was sitting on.

Proved it to me that day

 

[chebby]

Get something solid and nice looking ...

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think there are sound technical reasons why isolation does make a difference even on items that have no moving parts, but the easiest thing in the world is to demo a rack and you will soon find out if it does. But I'm somewhat dubious spending a lot is necessary. But I'd suggest to the original poster with the system in question, that it's not likely to make a difference what rack you use.

 

[steve_1979]

Both with and without music playing give your amplifier a firm tap with two fingers. Can you hear anything through the speakers? No? Vibration isn't a concern then.

With the exception of things like record players and some valve amps you can physically pick up most hifi equipment and vigorously shake them while in use without it effecting the sound in the slightest (Yes I have tried it).

Unless you own a record player which do benefit from a sturdy virbation free shelf, virtually all other hifi equipment can be placed anywhere you like. Hifi rack reviews are a con.

 

[ellisdj]

Bamboo Rack gave the cleanest sound compared to glass and the concrete floor

Glass was no better than the floor really - the bamboo rack made an obvious difference but you need to appreciate that difference and not associates it with a losing of dynamics like I did that day.

It was removing dynamics that are not supposed to be there but thats not always easy for the brain to compute as being correct when you have had years of listening to it a certain way.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

 

[ellisdj]

It was a Cyrus CD6S being used to test it through a Moon Integrated Amp into MA PL300's in a largeish acoustically treated room

 

[Gazzip]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

+1

Most manufacturers from bottom to high end do engage in some kind of damping for their SS. On higher end gear it is not unusual to find stillpoint feet and full supension PCB assemblies as standard.

DACs are a great solid state example of where vibration can be a real issue. The oscillators (even "low noise oscillators") associated with the clock are extremely sensitive to vibration and shock. Any shock or vibration to these components can produce large phase deviations leading to congestion and improper queing, AKA jitter. Put simply the frequency of the clock becomes irregular. Vibration isolation is therefore of paramount importance for a DAC to operate faultlessly. The big question is always are the errors caused by oscillator vibration audible? I believe I can hear it, but everybody has a different point of view.

Then of course there is the question of capacitor microphonics, which if audible would be a much wider issue...

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

+1

Most manufacturers from bottom to high end do engage in some kind of damping for their SS. On higher end gear it is not unusual to find stillpoint feet and full supension PCB assemblies as standard.

DACs are a great solid state example of where vibration can be a real issue. The oscillators (even "low noise oscillators") associated with the clock are extremely sensitive to vibration and shock. Any shock or vibration to these components can produce large phase deviations leading to congestion and improper queing, AKA jitter. Put simply the frequency of the clock becomes irregular. Vibration isolation is therefore of paramount importance for a DAC to operate faultlessly. The big question is always are the errors caused by oscillator vibration audible? I believe I can hear it, but everybody has a different point of view.

Then of course there is the question of capacitor microphonics, which if audible would be a much wider issue...

thats interesting and I agree. Do you know in laymans terms how movement or vibration has the effects on a dac.

 

[Vladimir]

It was a Cyrus CD6S being used to test it through a Moon Integrated Amp into MA PL300's in a largeish acoustically treated room

CDP has moving parts and vibration affects resolution because of reading compensation circuitry. Sony used to make some of its ES CDPs without such circuitry to keep sound immaculate but it left responsibility to the owner to provide shock proof environment for the unit, otherwise it would cut out sound.

However, the topic is about SS gear with no moving parts. IMO the differences with and without vibration can be measured (and have been, they show negative effect on circuitry) but almost never can be reliably heard. Again Sony has done more than anyone else in this field, if you are familiar with ES amps, Gibraltar chasis etc. They really went bonkers on supressing vibration, using nonmagnetizing materials etc.

IME transformers are the oddball in this situation. If they aren't placed well, firmed to the casing, leveled and wires aren't tidy and flying all over like spaghetti, sound can be affected because of EMI. I recently experienced this with my vintage amp. I removed the transformer to do proper cleaning throughout, noticed it has been sitting slightly loose and unnoticeably humming. The chap that serviced it (recap, bias etc.) didn't do a good job on the wires either. I sorted everything out, tidy up with zip ties, looks like factory now and sounds better than prior to cleaning. Bass is tighter and more focused, also I hear less noise when I do the volume to 100% test. + no humm whatsoever. The transformer is mounted on its own small chasis, not screwed down directly on the main one. The way it is oriented and executed shows certain care and intention for this. Matsushita deemed it important part of the design.

If you read up on amplifier design, even at rudimentary component level, you will realize that two things have no business being inside an amplifier case - the transformer and the heatsink.

 

[Gazzip]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

+1

Most manufacturers from bottom to high end do engage in some kind of damping for their SS. On higher end gear it is not unusual to find stillpoint feet and full supension PCB assemblies as standard.

DACs are a great solid state example of where vibration can be a real issue. The oscillators (even "low noise oscillators") associated with the clock are extremely sensitive to vibration and shock. Any shock or vibration to these components can produce large phase deviations leading to congestion and improper queing, AKA jitter. Put simply the frequency of the clock becomes irregular. Vibration isolation is therefore of paramount importance for a DAC to operate faultlessly. The big question is always are the errors caused by oscillator vibration audible? I believe I can hear it, but everybody has a different point of view.

Then of course there is the question of capacitor microphonics, which if audible would be a much wider issue...

thats interesting and I agree. Do you know in laymans terms how movement or vibration has the effects on a dac.

The digital to analogue conversion process is cotrolled by a clock (oscillator). This is a computer timing circuit that controls the speed of the digital signal to analogue signal conversion process. The clock tells the audio DAC chip to operate 10's of thousands of times a second. When the DAC chip "fires" at the instruction of the clock it takes the next digital signal (sent from the transport) and creates an analogue voltage that matches it and which can be amplified by an analogue amplifer. This is the basic premise of digital to analogue conversion.

Now imagine that the clock's regularity has been effected by vibrations. The DAC chip fires inappropriately and fails to produce an accurate analogue representation of the digital information. These signal issues associated with "off timing" are known as jitter. Make sense now?

 

[Vladimir]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

+1

Most manufacturers from bottom to high end do engage in some kind of damping for their SS. On higher end gear it is not unusual to find stillpoint feet and full supension PCB assemblies as standard.

DACs are a great solid state example of where vibration can be a real issue. The oscillators (even "low noise oscillators") associated with the clock are extremely sensitive to vibration and shock. Any shock or vibration to these components can produce large phase deviations leading to congestion and improper queing, AKA jitter. Put simply the frequency of the clock becomes irregular. Vibration isolation is therefore of paramount importance for a DAC to operate faultlessly. The big question is always are the errors caused by oscillator vibration audible? I believe I can hear it, but everybody has a different point of view.

Then of course there is the question of capacitor microphonics, which if audible would be a much wider issue...

thats interesting and I agree. Do you know in laymans terms how movement or vibration has the effects on a dac.

The digital to analogue conversion process is cotrolled by a clock (oscillator). This is a computer timing circuit that controls the speed of the digital signal to analogue signal conversion process. The clock tells the audio DAC chip to operate 10's of thousands of times a second. When the DAC chip "fires" at the instruction of the clock it takes the next digital signal (sent from the transport) and creates an analogue voltage that matches it and which can be amplified by an analogue amplifer. This is the basic premise of digital to analogue conversion.

Now imagine that the clock's regularity has been effected by vibrations. The DAC chip fires inappropriately and fails to produce an accurate analogue representation of the digital information. These signal issues associated with "off timing" are known as jitter. Make sense now?

I wonder how avionics keep working with so much vibrations. One would think planes and satelites would drop like flies.

 

[lindsayt]

As already mentioned, TT's are microphonic and location and support are important for them. Valve amps can be microphonic too.

I have a solid state CD player that can skip if it's tapped. Sounds fine if it's located sensibly and not touched during play.

For my solid state amplifiers I've never noticed any sonic differences regardless of what they're placed on. I'm happy to plonk them on the floor. But that's my systems to my ears. All my amps are located a few metres from my speakers (to place them near my TT's). I'm happy to accept that there may be detectable differences due to vibration with solid state amps in other systems.

At a phono stage bake-off last week, there were phono stages that benefitted from being placed away from their power supplies and from power amplifiers. That was more to do with electro magnetic interference than mechanical.

It's possible that some reported improvements from changing solid state amplification support may be down to electro magnetic interferance instead of vibration. Whatever the cause, the main thing is to get the whole system working as well as you reasonably can.

 

[andyjm]

I fear you are straying into the 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' area.

At the limit, everything effects everything. Your coffee cup exerts a gravitational force on to the lens assembly of your CD player. Move the coffee cup and the force changes. Audible? almost certainly not.

All electronic components are susceptible to heat, and many are susceptible to vibration. Components that depend on mechanical properties (resistors, capacitors, inductors, valves) change parameters as stress is applied, and in audio circuits can lead to the circuit being microphonic.

Solid state electronics have thermal effects, but are generally free from vibration sensitivity. The quartz crystals used in oscillator circuits however are sensitive to both heat and vibration.

The challenge in engineering is if everything makes a difference, to find out what actually matters.

WIth modern surface mount components, (absent valves and turntables) audio equipment is generally immune to vibration effects. Turn the volume way up, tap the case with a pencil, nothing out the speakers? - not microphonic and therefore not sensitive to vibration. A fancy rack might make you feel better, but won't impact the sound to an audible degree.

Theoretically, a DAC could suffer phase variations in the clock if the crystal was subject to vibration - and this could lead to jitter artifacts in the DAC output. I did a bit of Googling, and the effects are tiny - measured in parts per million for very high rates of acceleration of the crystal. Important if you are following Elon Musk to Mars and are wondering about the accuracy of your guidance system during the launch, but frankly a complete waste of time for home HiFi.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That depends how susceptible the system is to vibration, and the quality of the system, but the fact that some forms of damping is on both the cheapest hi fi systems to the expensive systems tells you all you need to know from the perspective of damping and why used. But whether it makes a difference on budget systems, whose sound would be less noticeable, is I think the issue.

+1

Most manufacturers from bottom to high end do engage in some kind of damping for their SS. On higher end gear it is not unusual to find stillpoint feet and full supension PCB assemblies as standard.

DACs are a great solid state example of where vibration can be a real issue. The oscillators (even "low noise oscillators") associated with the clock are extremely sensitive to vibration and shock. Any shock or vibration to these components can produce large phase deviations leading to congestion and improper queing, AKA jitter. Put simply the frequency of the clock becomes irregular. Vibration isolation is therefore of paramount importance for a DAC to operate faultlessly. The big question is always are the errors caused by oscillator vibration audible? I believe I can hear it, but everybody has a different point of view.

Then of course there is the question of capacitor microphonics, which if audible would be a much wider issue...

thats interesting and I agree. Do you know in laymans terms how movement or vibration has the effects on a dac.

The digital to analogue conversion process is cotrolled by a clock (oscillator). This is a computer timing circuit that controls the speed of the digital signal to analogue signal conversion process. The clock tells the audio DAC chip to operate 10's of thousands of times a second. When the DAC chip "fires" at the instruction of the clock it takes the next digital signal (sent from the transport) and creates an analogue voltage that matches it and which can be amplified by an analogue amplifer. This is the basic premise of digital to analogue conversion.

Now imagine that the clock's regularity has been effected by vibrations. The DAC chip fires inappropriately and fails to produce an accurate analogue representation of the digital information. These signal issues associated with "off timing" are known as jitter. Make sense now?

but how is the dacs regularity affected by vibrations. I'm with you on the score vibrations affect non moving electrical circuits, as I understand it exclusively to be the case with circuit designers, but have never understood it. Thanks for trying to explain.

 

[lindsayt]

I wonder how avionics keep working with so much vibrations. One would think planes and satelites would drop like flies.

Mig fighters from the 1970's flew fine with valve based electronics. They were less susceptible to damage from electro magnetic bursts from nuclear strikes than the US solid state fighters of the time. There is no doubt that the performance of the Mig systems would be impaired to some extent by vibration.

With avionics it's important that the electronic systems work to certain specified limits. Beyond that it doesn't matter if they're working perfectly.

With audio it all depends. Sometimes the sort of limits that would be fine for an aircraft would not be so good for the human ear listening to music.