Is vibration over rated in solid state electronics

[Leif]

Nobody said that audio DACs arent operating at a high level of precision, even with jitter present. The issue is that slight deviations in audio precision may be audibly noticeable and therefore an issue, whereas a plane putting its wheels down 5mm away from where it should have done so is not noticable and is not an issue. What kind of comparison are you trying to make here Vladimir?

Gazzip,

I am afraid that there continues to be a lot of 'whataboutary' in your comments.

I don't doubt that vibration can cause phase jitter in a crystal oscillator, but have you come across any analysis that vibration of a crystal within a DAC in a domestic environment leads to phase jitter that is audible?

My post is entirely 'whataboutary', as is much of audiophilia. I know that jitter is present in our DACs as do you. The diference between our standpoints is that I don't want it there because there is no conclusive scientific evidence to suggest that it does not effect the audio signal, whereas you are hapy to allow it to live in your DAC until there is scientifically conclusive evidence to prove that it does effect the audio signal. You choose to ignore the anecdotal and personal experiences of those who claim to be able to detect jitter whereas I do not.

So each time a marketing wonk thinks up another possible cause of audio dissatisfaction, no matter how implausible, you will buy kit that includes suitable countermeasures?

You do realise that huge numbers of neutrinos and high energy particles are constantly raining down on us, causing potential damage to your hifi? You need to buy some lead shielding, and build a shelter deep in the ground, protected by a pond of cleaning fluid to absorb the neutrinos. Then there are gravity waves, not sure how you can shield those, but it must be possible. And of course thunder storms cause ionisation of the air, which is most damaging, so you will need to filter your air, to remove those damaging ions. And then there is humidity which affects the speed of sound, so you will need a special dehumidifier, to get the humidity just right. And we could not end without mentioning air pressure. To get the correct speed of sound you also need to get the ideal air pressure, so you will need to create a hermetically sealed listening room with constant air pressure.

Alternatively, forget all the nonsense, and just listen to a hifi without the audiophile rubbish, and realise that actually audio playback is a compromise. Firstly sound quality depends on the microphones and their placement, the nature of the recording and mixing equipment, and the choices made by the recording engineers. Secondly it is played back through a simple stereo system which by its very nature is a compromise. So you expect such perfection that tiny tiny jitter effects will destroy your enjoyment?

I have a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman, lovely quality except that at one point an audible hum appears for quite a long while. Eh?

 

[Native_bon]

Nobody said that audio DACs arent operating at a high level of precision, even with jitter present. The issue is that slight deviations in audio precision may be audibly noticeable and therefore an issue, whereas a plane putting its wheels down 5mm away from where it should have done so is not noticable and is not an issue. What kind of comparison are you trying to make here Vladimir?

Gazzip,

I am afraid that there continues to be a lot of 'whataboutary' in your comments. 

I don't doubt that vibration can cause phase jitter in a crystal oscillator, but have you come across any analysis that vibration of a crystal within a DAC in a domestic environment leads to phase jitter that is audible?

My post is entirely 'whataboutary', as is much of audiophilia. I know that jitter is present in our DACs as do you. The diference between our standpoints is that I don't want it there because there is no conclusive scientific evidence to suggest that it does not effect the audio signal, whereas you are hapy to allow it to live in your DAC until there is scientifically conclusive evidence to prove that it does effect the audio signal. You choose to ignore the anecdotal and personal experiences of those who claim to be able to detect jitter whereas I do not.

So each time a marketing wonk thinks up another possible cause of audio dissatisfaction, no matter how implausible, you will buy kit that includes suitable countermeasures?

You do realise that huge numbers of neutrinos and high energy particles are constantly raining down on us, causing potential damage to your hifi? You need to buy some lead shielding, and build a shelter deep in the ground, protected by a pond of cleaning fluid to absorb the neutrinos. Then there are gravity waves, not sure how you can shield those, but it must be possible. And of course thunder storms cause ionisation of the air, which is most damaging, so you will need to filter your air, to remove those damaging ions. And then there is humidity which affects the speed of sound, so you will need a special dehumidifier, to get the humidity just right. And we could not end without mentioning air pressure. To get the correct speed of sound you also need to get the ideal air pressure, so you will need to create a hermetically sealed listening room with constant air pressure. 

Alternatively, forget all the nonsense, and just listen to a hifi without the audiophile rubbish, and realise that actually audio playback is a compromise. Firstly sound quality depends on the microphones and their placement, the nature of the recording and mixing equipment, and the choices made by the recording engineers. Secondly it is played back through a simple stereo system which by its very nature is a compromise. So you expect such perfection that tiny tiny jitter effects will destroy your enjoyment? 

I have a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman, lovely quality except that at one point an audible hum appears for quite a long while. Eh? 

Every little helps, that's what I say.

 

[ellisdj]

Every little helps exactly - when you are in Pursuit Perfect System

 

[Andrewjvt]

As ive read the whole thread last night I have 2 questions.

If the dac is effected by vibrations (causing jitters) but most probably inaudible...

1. How come in other threads people have claimed vibration pads/feet have changed or focused the sound so that the user can clearly hear a difference? Please explain

2 wherethe hell are all these vibrations comming from?

I think there is an opportunity here to make and sell audiophile vibration meters to test vibration on equipment with avionic/military grade components

1. Some people in this thread claim the jitter is inaudible. I for one think it is audible and I am by no means alone.

2. The air (airborne soundwaves from your music) and the structure of your property (impact vibration from your music).

It saddens me that so much scorn is poured on these types of products. Issues with vibration in all equipment, both solid state and otherwise, is extremely well known and scientifically documented. The simple and obvious reason that mitigating measures such as this are not always included as factory fit items by lower/mid end manufacturers is because the cost of including them vs the tiny gain in audible improvement is not worth it to them or their customers, most of whom are not "audiophiles" (God I hate that word...). Why would you put £1000 worth of StillPoints on a £179 Denon DM40? You wouldn't now would you.

Audiophile (there it goes again) tweaks are usually about mitigation of unwanted artifacts. Preventing as well as possible vibration, jitter, electrical noise, RF interference etc. Mitigate enough of these "inaudible" issues and the sum of many small improvements may make an audible improvement, or so the theory goes.

I don't want to offend anybody on here (but I know I am going to with this statement, so sorry in advance), but most of your systems are simply not revealing enough to benefit from such small improvements, and your listening spaces are not acoustically up to it either.

 

Yes we know you have a nice expensive hifi (you may also have more money than common sense regarding hifi) but please explain me what is the signal to noise ratio of your dac? Ive looked and they don't reveal it.

So please explain how my benchmark dac 3 with one of the best signal to noise ratios of almost any dac with beyer dynamic headphones would not be revealing enough? Ive played the drums on the casework while playing and I've heard nothing bad. Ive also heard mistakes in certain songs that wernt meant to be in the mix so how come i can hear this on my cheap non revealing system?

Also on your main speakers are you using a special tweeter that only your speaker has (to make it better revealing) than the cheaper pmc book shelf monitors? Then is it only bass extention your gaining over smaller but equally quality monitors?

Just saying a system is not as revealing because of cost is dumb. Not saying you dont have a good setup though id want it

Andrew, c'mon mate. I didn't suggest for a second that more expensive = more revealing. I simply stated that listening to systems at the budget end of the spectrum with expensive anti-vibration measures in place, and then publicly slating them as Snake Oil because they are not getting positive results, is not a fair test.

We have corresponed outside the forum so I know you are a bright guy. I am genuinely surprised therefore that you buy in to the piffel spouted by supposed scientists on the forum who state that tapping a pen or finger on top of a component is some kind of litmus test for microphonia. It is not, and those that pedal this nonsense are as guilty of scientific Snake Oil as the power cord manufacturers that they vilify on a daily basis. You might get a result from a turntable or a valve amp if you do this but you won't get a result from anything else. Why not? It is not because the solid state components inside are in some way impervious to vibrations. It is because smacking a pen on the casework of your amp or DAC does not induce a sustained frequency to which components can resonate. A sustained 20Hz to 200Hz thrumming through your amp or DAC as a bassline, kickdrum or wind instrument may however hit the critical frequencies required to make caps generate electrical charges or the DAC resonators in your oscillators to, well, resonate! In a DAC this may lead to PM which may lead to jitter which may or may not be audible is all I have really said.

I have to say that having a pop at my system and the money I spend on it is a bit out of order. I have only recently put my system signature back on my profile because I got random abuse for declaring my system (and unavoidably its value) previously. For the record I am not a particularly wealthy guy. I choose to spend my pin money on hifi as opposed to cars, holidays, clothes and going out for expensive meals. I nearly always buy second hand and I try not to waste my money, so please try not to make it personal... *smile*

Sorry if I've come across personal, i apologise. I don't suffer envy and am genuinely interested in your kit, its great stuff. I really mean it.

The only point that grates me is when im told i wont be able to tell with my kit as its not revealing enough when I know it is. Thats all

So sorry if i came across like a jealous person. I did not mean itlike that

 

[Al ears]

Nobody said that audio DACs arent operating at a high level of precision, even with jitter present. The issue is that slight deviations in audio precision may be audibly noticeable and therefore an issue, whereas a plane putting its wheels down 5mm away from where it should have done so is not noticable and is not an issue. What kind of comparison are you trying to make here Vladimir?

Gazzip,

I am afraid that there continues to be a lot of 'whataboutary' in your comments.

I don't doubt that vibration can cause phase jitter in a crystal oscillator, but have you come across any analysis that vibration of a crystal within a DAC in a domestic environment leads to phase jitter that is audible?

My post is entirely 'whataboutary', as is much of audiophilia. I know that jitter is present in our DACs as do you. The diference between our standpoints is that I don't want it there because there is no conclusive scientific evidence to suggest that it does not effect the audio signal, whereas you are hapy to allow it to live in your DAC until there is scientifically conclusive evidence to prove that it does effect the audio signal. You choose to ignore the anecdotal and personal experiences of those who claim to be able to detect jitter whereas I do not.

So each time a marketing wonk thinks up another possible cause of audio dissatisfaction, no matter how implausible, you will buy kit that includes suitable countermeasures?

You do realise that huge numbers of neutrinos and high energy particles are constantly raining down on us, causing potential damage to your hifi? You need to buy some lead shielding, and build a shelter deep in the ground, protected by a pond of cleaning fluid to absorb the neutrinos. Then there are gravity waves, not sure how you can shield those, but it must be possible. And of course thunder storms cause ionisation of the air, which is most damaging, so you will need to filter your air, to remove those damaging ions. And then there is humidity which affects the speed of sound, so you will need a special dehumidifier, to get the humidity just right. And we could not end without mentioning air pressure. To get the correct speed of sound you also need to get the ideal air pressure, so you will need to create a hermetically sealed listening room with constant air pressure.

Alternatively, forget all the nonsense, and just listen to a hifi without the audiophile rubbish, and realise that actually audio playback is a compromise. Firstly sound quality depends on the microphones and their placement, the nature of the recording and mixing equipment, and the choices made by the recording engineers. Secondly it is played back through a simple stereo system which by its very nature is a compromise. So you expect such perfection that tiny tiny jitter effects will destroy your enjoyment?

I have a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman, lovely quality except that at one point an audible hum appears for quite a long while. Eh?

Wasn't the Townshend Seismic Sink developed to counter these? ;-)

 

[Leif]

Wasn't the Townshend Seismic Sink developed to counter these? ;-)

Lordy Lordy, praise be to the Gods, you're right, I now have something useful to buy:

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/index.php?manufacturers_id=80#.WZaKVOm1taR

Audio Nirvana is in reach ...

 

[ellisdj]

It might be one step closer to you now Leif

 

[Gazzip]

Nobody said that audio DACs arent operating at a high level of precision, even with jitter present. The issue is that slight deviations in audio precision may be audibly noticeable and therefore an issue, whereas a plane putting its wheels down 5mm away from where it should have done so is not noticable and is not an issue. What kind of comparison are you trying to make here Vladimir?

Gazzip,

I am afraid that there continues to be a lot of 'whataboutary' in your comments.

I don't doubt that vibration can cause phase jitter in a crystal oscillator, but have you come across any analysis that vibration of a crystal within a DAC in a domestic environment leads to phase jitter that is audible?

My post is entirely 'whataboutary', as is much of audiophilia. I know that jitter is present in our DACs as do you. The diference between our standpoints is that I don't want it there because there is no conclusive scientific evidence to suggest that it does not effect the audio signal, whereas you are hapy to allow it to live in your DAC until there is scientifically conclusive evidence to prove that it does effect the audio signal. You choose to ignore the anecdotal and personal experiences of those who claim to be able to detect jitter whereas I do not.

So each time a marketing wonk thinks up another possible cause of audio dissatisfaction, no matter how implausible, you will buy kit that includes suitable countermeasures?

You do realise that huge numbers of neutrinos and high energy particles are constantly raining down on us, causing potential damage to your hifi? You need to buy some lead shielding, and build a shelter deep in the ground, protected by a pond of cleaning fluid to absorb the neutrinos. Then there are gravity waves, not sure how you can shield those, but it must be possible. And of course thunder storms cause ionisation of the air, which is most damaging, so you will need to filter your air, to remove those damaging ions. And then there is humidity which affects the speed of sound, so you will need a special dehumidifier, to get the humidity just right. And we could not end without mentioning air pressure. To get the correct speed of sound you also need to get the ideal air pressure, so you will need to create a hermetically sealed listening room with constant air pressure.

Alternatively, forget all the nonsense, and just listen to a hifi without the audiophile rubbish, and realise that actually audio playback is a compromise. Firstly sound quality depends on the microphones and their placement, the nature of the recording and mixing equipment, and the choices made by the recording engineers. Secondly it is played back through a simple stereo system which by its very nature is a compromise. So you expect such perfection that tiny tiny jitter effects will destroy your enjoyment?

I have a recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman, lovely quality except that at one point an audible hum appears for quite a long while. Eh?

Do you use speaker stands? If you have floorstanding speakers do they have spikes? Is your system made up of separate components (amp/cd player etc.)? Do you have a hifi rack? Does your mains block have a filter? Have you got any (and I mean any here, so please be honest) after-market cables in your system?

Answer yes to any of the above then you are already balls deep in the world you seem to hate but don't seem to realise it.

 

[Gazzip]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence.

 

[Vladimir]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Gazzip? The clocks work at 24MHz or 48Mhz, jitter is in single digit nano or pico seconds. If the math doesn't add up, you get dropouts, pops and clicks, or worst case scenario, no sound. You don't get different timbre in violins. It's not analog.

 

[Andrewjvt]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this. 

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence. 

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Gazzip? The clocks work at 24MHz or 48Mhz, jitter is in single digit nano or pico seconds. If the math doesn't add up, you get dropouts, pops and clicks, or worst case scenario, no sound. You don't get different timbre in violins. It's not analog.

Those pops and clicks.
When i set the hegel up for dsd it made popping sounds when changing from a dsd file to a flac...

Was that the same thing as you described above?

 

[Vladimir]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Gazzip? The clocks work at 24MHz or 48Mhz, jitter is in single digit nano or pico seconds. If the math doesn't add up, you get dropouts, pops and clicks, or worst case scenario, no sound. You don't get different timbre in violins. It's not analog.

Those pops and clicks. When i set the hegel up for dsd it made popping sounds when changing from a dsd file to a flac...

Was that the same thing as you described above?

Yup. There was some issue with the setup.

 

[ellisdj]

The popping has got to be it reclocking to the new signal.

 

[Vladimir]

The popping has got to be it reclocking to the new signal.

It is, but the firmware should mute the pops during this. Maybe they haven't considered it in the design.

 

[Gazzip]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Gazzip? The clocks work at 24MHz or 48Mhz, jitter is in single digit nano or pico seconds. If the math doesn't add up, you get dropouts, pops and clicks, or worst case scenario, no sound. You don't get different timbre in violins. It's not analog.

...sigh... bit errors leading to data recovery errors cause clicks, pops and drop-outs. This is usually associated with interface jitter.

We are discussing clock induced jitter which is a completely different thing. Now I understand your confusion. You need to pay attention! *biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

It doesn't matter how much you shake or vibrate your DAC, in a decently designed hardware the AJC will sort the jitter out and there won't be audible artefacts. It's done with math, not gilded cables, caps and spikes. -133dB for daft old men listening to upsampled low res 60s jazz. Couldn't be any more engineering overkill than this.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Vladimir? PLL requires the use of two clocks. Two clocks = two oscillators. In theoretical bench conditions reclocking with a second clock reduces/eliminates jitter because neither oscillator is subject to vibration. Real world conditions will however expose both oscillators to the same vibrations. If both resonators have the same resonant frequency then the jitter will pass through uncorrected. If however they both have different resonant frequencies then the problem can be exacerbated as both clocks begin to work against each other creating further jitter.

Your assumption that other real world applications (navigation systems, aircraft etc.) are uneffected by jitter and work perfectly is incorrect. I have posted links in this thread which address this with hard scientific evidence.

You really are having trouble understanding this aren't you Gazzip? The clocks work at 24MHz or 48Mhz, jitter is in single digit nano or pico seconds. If the math doesn't add up, you get dropouts, pops and clicks, or worst case scenario, no sound. You don't get different timbre in violins. It's not analog.

...sigh... bit errors leading to data recovery errors cause clicks, pops and drop-outs. This is usually associated with interface jitter.

We are discussing clock induced jitter which is a completely different thing. Now I understand your confusion. You need to pay attention! *biggrin*

 

[ellisdj]

I have heard Will Smith is remaking an old classic tune of his.

And he is basing it on all the audiphiles who dont use isolation products under and on their dacs.

I have heard the tune it, it goes like this

"Getting Jitter with it - Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, nah nah nah"

 

[Vladimir]

I have heard Will Smith is remaking an old classic tune of his.

And he is basing it on all the audiphiles who dont use isolation products under and on their dacs.

I have heard the tune it, it goes like this

"Getting Jitter with it - Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, nah nah nah"

 

[Andrewjvt]

The popping has got to be it reclocking to the new signal.

It is, but the firmware should mute the pops during this. Maybe they haven't considered it in the design.

This should clear things up

https://youtu.be/OdFxa8EWRT8

 

[Vladimir]

The popping has got to be it reclocking to the new signal.

It is, but the firmware should mute the pops during this. Maybe they haven't considered it in the design.

This should clear things up

https://youtu.be/OdFxa8EWRT8

Ah. All is clear now. Audiophile District 9 can rest.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The popping has got to be it reclocking to the new signal.

It is, but the firmware should mute the pops during this. Maybe they haven't considered it in the design.

This should clear things up

https://youtu.be/OdFxa8EWRT8

Ah. All is clear now. Audiophile District 9 can rest.

I love that film

 

[plastic penguin]

In terms of residual vibration, What Hi-fi used to recommend you place a house brick (or something of that ilk) on top of the CD player. Have to say I've never tried it so...

 

[nopiano]

Years ago, when the original NAD 3020 reigned supreme in budget Hi-Fi, Misson made a basic device called the Isoplat. Four hemispheres of Sorbothane stuck to a board, with a black vinyl wrap I recall.

The NAD sounded significantly better supported on this. It was dead easy to demonstrate in the shop. We sold dozens. If you placed your ear near the NAD you could hear the casing buzzing slightly in time with the music. I imagined it was the transformer but my memory isn't that good! My conclusion at the time was that cheaper gear could be more improved than expensive.

 

[davedotco]

Years ago, when the original NAD 3020 reigned supreme in budget Hi-Fi, Misson made a basic device called the Isoplat. Four hemispheres of Sorbothane stuck to a board, with a black vinyl wrap I recall.

The NAD sounded significantly better supported on this. It was dead easy to demonstrate in the shop. We sold dozens. If you placed your ear near the NAD you could hear the casing buzzing slightly in time with the music. I imagined it was the transformer but my memory isn't that good! My conclusion at the time was that cheaper gear could be more improved than expensive.

We had a similar but opposite reaction. The Isoplat, when placed under amps or other components invariable sounded worse.

However, at that time, when demonstrating, each component was placed on it's own spiked SO table as a matter of course, adding the Isoplat caused a clear loss of focus and precision.

Fun eh?

 

[nopiano]

Years ago, when the original NAD 3020 reigned supreme in budget Hi-Fi, Misson made a basic device called the Isoplat. Four hemispheres of Sorbothane stuck to a board, with a black vinyl wrap I recall.

The NAD sounded significantly better supported on this. It was dead easy to demonstrate in the shop. We sold dozens. If you placed your ear near the NAD you could hear the casing buzzing slightly in time with the music. I imagined it was the transformer but my memory isn't that good! My conclusion at the time was that cheaper gear could be more improved than expensive.

We had a similar but opposite reaction. The Isoplat, when placed under amps or other components invariable sounded worse.

However, at that time, when demonstrating, each component was placed on it's own spiked SO table as a matter of course, adding the Isoplat caused a clear loss of focus and precision.

Fun eh?

Ha! We didn't have decent stands, just various shelf units and tables. Though I think I recall some Target tables similar to the SO, just without the umlauts! The Isoplat didn't seem to improve a typical Dual turntable though, just the NAD. However, I suppose whether better or worse, both outcomes support the original hypothesis of this thread about vibrations in an amp!

It's curious too that a common complaint about supports and things like power blocks is that they 'suck the life' from a component. I'm even more confused as to how that might happen!