Is upgrading Hi-Fi equipment a dance of diminishing returns?

[gigmagig]

I was not sure which section of the Forum to post this topic on but here goes....

Is upgrading Hi-Fi equipment a dance of diminishing returns?

By this I mean to realize a better sound, for say your vinyl then a decent amp and speakers
are vital, but then there's the room; is it configured for optimum sonics?

Of course speaker stands will help, but also a quality turntable is a must, yet without an acclaimed
cartridge and stylus most of the previous investments are a touch undermined. Right?

But let's say you invest in that Ortofon 2M Bronze there's another factor which may well contribute,
significantly, to a reduced audio outcome.

Yep, the condition of the vinyl you have! Which brings my rambling to a couple of questions:

Does assembling a fairly decent system, including top-rated cartridges and styli make
listening to any record less then mint, or near mint condition not quite the blissful audio
experience hoped for?

Is seeking the best reproduction and sound quality within our budget leading to that
diminished return?

I wonder. As always your insight, experiences and knowledge will be most appreciated.
and may well help me decide to stick with my humble OM cartridge

 

[Roger_A]

Yes - in answer to your original question. In addition, obtaining a quality turntable is by no means a 'must' for many hifi addicts these days.

 

[insider9]

Don't think is any different to other hobbies. As long as you operate at an enthusiast level you'll run into in most hobbies.

Say you're into cars law of diminishing returns still applies and instead of room acoustics and system synergy you deal with weather conditions, poor roads and picking the right tyres. As long as you have the right car in right condition.

If you play guitar it's about finding the right one (usually one of each 😂), setup, strings, picks, etc. not to mention if it's electric amps, cabs, cables and effects.

It's only as difficult as you make it to be. Word of caution, if you truly enjoy the discovery and what it gives you - great! But if you're doing it to either distract yourself from life's issues or to avoid dealing with what's really bothering you then my advice would be to take a long hard look at your life.

No judgement here, been there done that! A little bit of escapism is great, locking yourself in a dark room so you don't have to deal with a failing marriage (for example) is only making you miserable for longer. Hope you find this constructive as it's coming from a good place.

 

[davidf]

There are those who want accurate sound, for which they’ll go to any lengths to achieve that, and there’s those who just want a system to enjoy, who are more easily pleased and not really interested in room acoustics and fiddling around - they just want a good system, set it up, and enjoy it. It doesn’t matter which group you belong to, as long as you are prepared for the journey/rabbit hole if you choose the former.

Start with the source (as in the music format/medium), and work your way through the system to achieve the best you can.

 

[gigmagig]

Don't think is any different to other hobbies. As long as you operate at an enthusiast level you'll run into in most hobbies.

Say you're into cars law of diminishing returns still applies and instead of room acoustics and system synergy you deal with weather conditions, poor roads and picking the right tyres. As long as you have the right car in right condition.

If you play guitar it's about finding the right one (usually one of each 😂), setup, strings, picks, etc. not to mention if it's electric amps, cabs, cables and effects.

It's only as difficult as you make it to be. Word of caution, if you truly enjoy the discovery and what it gives you - great! But if you're doing it to either distract yourself from life's issues or to avoid dealing with what's really bothering you then my advice would be to take a long hard look at your life.

No judgement here, been there done that! A little bit of escapism is great, locking yourself in a dark room so you don't have to deal with a failing marriage (for example) is only making you miserable for longer. Hope you find this constructive as it's coming from a good place.

Well your kind response has set me off on a journey of philosophical musing now, is it really the music that fills my heart with joy or an unrecognized distraction. Most likely an interaction twixt the two, and other factors such as the beuatiful way that music connects to your experiences in life, so nostalgia come into it. But my post here, if reduced to its essence is asking does hi-end equipment emphasize poor quality vinyly, and if so it follows that it would be somewhat self-defeating to make such an investment without having albums of mint or near condition. Unless of course we can learn to love the crackles, pops and frying an egg accompaniment found with many an original vinyl

 

[gigmagig]

There are those who want accurate sound, for which they’ll go to any lengths to achieve that, and there’s those who just want a system to enjoy, who are more easily pleased and not really interested in room acoustics and fiddling around - they just want a good system, set it up, and enjoy it. It doesn’t matter which group you belong to, as long as you are prepared for the journey/rabbit hole if you choose the former.

Start with the source (as in the music format/medium), and work your way through the system to achieve the best you can.

Hear you on the source.

 

[Florestander]

The straight answer is yes, more than likely! As with any hobby, it is advisable to take a good hard look at the reasons for seeking an upgrade. It is extremely easy to get sucked in, - the next .new' thing can be a delight to some, but make no real discernible difference to others. Stick to a sensible budget and test before you buy. I suspect that you already know this - and on the vinyl matter, I am sure you are already aware of the old adage that goes for any mode of sonic re-production, that is of course, "C**p in = C**p out". This is probably, with rare exception, a truism too....

That being said, as long as one maintains a balanced approach, I have foun that tere is much fun to be had upon the journey of discovery! Enjoy.....

 

[gigmagig]

The straight answer is yes, more than likely! As with any hobby, it is advisable to take a good hard look at the reasons for seeking an upgrade. It is extremely easy to get sucked in, - the next .new' thing can be a delight to some, but make no real discernible difference to others. Stick to a sensible budget and test before you buy. I suspect that you already know this - and on the vinyl matter, I am sure you are already aware of the old adage that goes for any mode of sonic re-production, that is of course, "C**p in = C**p out". This is probably, with rare exception, a truism too....

That being said, as long as one maintains a balanced approach, I have foun that tere is much fun to be had upon the journey of discovery! Enjoy.....

Sound advice

 

[insider9]

Well your kind response has set me off on a journey of philosophical musing now, is it really the music that fills my heart with joy or an unrecognized distraction. Most likely an interaction twixt the two, and other factors such as the beuatiful way that music connects to your experiences in life, so nostalgia come into it. But my post here, if reduced to its essence is asking does hi-end equipment emphasize poor quality vinyly, and if so it follows that it would be somewhat self-defeating to make such an investment without having albums of mint or near condition. Unless of course we can learn to love the crackles, pops and frying an egg accompaniment found with many an original vinyl

I appreciate it. And thanks for indulging in debate that came out of a left field. The direct answer to your post is... it depends 😆 Can you see a pattern forming? 😂

Many who grew up with vinyl expect to hear pops and crackles. This nostalgia is a part of why vinyl is their preferred method of listening to music. It goes to a deeper meaning of why we like what we like.

If sound quality is your priority high end vinyl system can deliver that given high quality, clean pressings. If these aren't attainable and/or already part of your collection then digital front end might be the way to go.

I personally don't have the patience nor the budget to indulge in vinyl. And my ever developing listening habits means that I rarely listen to same record more than a few times. Constantly exploring new artist/genres.

If vinyl is your main source you can't go wrong with upgrading your cart, however it will only allow you to re-listen to what you already own. Have you considered spending that money expanding your collection?

 

[Florestander]

Sound advice

Ha - Sound advice! -I see what you did there 😊👍

 

[Oxfordian]

Have you considered spending that money expanding your collection?

I’m not the best to support this having changed my whole system after it came out of a 20 year hibernation in the loft and wasn’t as good as it should have been, so I started afresh.

But my aim now is to spend my hard earned cash on music, in vinyl or CD format, I love vinyl so tactile, so involving, it’s what I grew up with so I’ll put up with the odd pop and click. All my LP’s have been cleaned, put in anti static sleeves and inserted in external sleeves to keep them as clean as possible, so far it’s working.

Will I upgrade again, maybe, I might look at a new cartridge in a few years and adding a subwoofer will be considered. But now every spare moment is spent listening to music whilst SWMBO watches the soaps and desperate housewive.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

For shizzle my nizzle.

 

[Gray]

For shizzle my nizzle.

Are you OK gel?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Are you OK gel?

Yes, thanks. You?

 

[Ethics Gradient]

Unless of course we can learn to love the crackles, pops and frying an egg accompaniment found with many an original vinyl

I couldn't!

 

[idc]

The law of diminishing returns applies to pretty much everything, hifi included.

 

[aversaurus]

I think hifi is a journey .I enjoy changing my equipment and taking left turns .sometimes it's a small gain or a unexpected massive improvement .and once in a blue moon I buy a good reviewed item that's just rubbish .
I never see it as diminishing returns .I see it as a adventure discovery and wonder .but that's just me

 

[Gray]

I couldn't!

Nor me.
Always a case of tolerate, never could be love.
Perhaps the biggest advantage of converting vinyl to digital is the ability to remove the worst pops and clicks.
It's very satisfying to zoom right in on the waveform and eliminate them.

 

[Oxfordian]

Nor me.
Always a case of tolerate, never could be love.
Perhaps the biggest advantage of converting vinyl to digital is the ability to remove the worst pops and clicks.
It's very satisfying to zoom right in on the waveform and eliminate them.

Vinyl is so good, it is so therapeutic or at least it is for me.

Sure you can have a pop or crackle thrown at you but that is vinyl, when I grew up it was vinyl or cassette, there was no CD or streaming so you accepted the pops and clicks or the tape winding round a spindle inside the unit, now that was a nightmare.

But I love the interaction I get with vinyl, today I look after my vinyl investment a bit better the pops and clicks are greatly reduced.

Streaming, sorry but this just leaves me cold, it’s like radio without natter, good for background noise, I find it useful for researching what I might want to buy and add to the collection but not a serious listening format as there is no interaction.

 

[Edbostan]

Vinyl is so good, it is so therapeutic or at least it is for me.

Sure you can have a pop or crackle thrown at you but that is vinyl, when I grew up it was vinyl or cassette, there was no CD or streaming so you accepted the pops and clicks or the tape winding round a spindle inside the unit, now that was a nightmare.

But I love the interaction I get with vinyl, today I look after my vinyl investment a bit better the pops and clicks are greatly reduced.

Streaming, sorry but this just leaves me cold, it’s like radio without natter, good for background noise, I find it useful for researching what I might want to buy and add to the collection but not a serious listening format as there is no interaction.

It is a generation thing. Both my children who are now in their thirties and live in their respective houses with partners do not own a hi-fi system. Yes, my son listens to music streamed via Spotify onto his i-phone or Amazon Echo or Bose speakers while my daughter is not fussed about the music only the personality. If this is the trend hi-fi manufacturers are doomed.

 

[bigfish786]

I guess diminishing returns would relate to swapping boxes and getting no improvement in perceived sound quality. i Have yet to get to that point, but have had to educate myself as to what “better” actually means or delivers.
depending on product, you could be expecting any one of dozens of improvements, but if you are wanting more bass and the upgrade doesn’t do that, but it improved some other aspects, you could see that as a negative and believe you have hit the glass ceiling of money/Improvement.
I hope my next upgrade will continue the trend I’ve experienced, and upgrade the quality of musicality . its then down to me to understand and decide if it’s an improvement on my previous kit, and whether it was worth it.

 

[Oxfordian]

It is a generation thing. Both my children who are now in their thirties and live in their respective houses with partners do not own a hi-fi system. Yes, my son listens to music streamed via Spotify onto his i-phone or Amazon Echo or Bose speakers while my daughter is not fussed about the music only the personality. If this is the trend hi-fi manufacturers are doomed.

My two are 30 and 27, one buys records and loves his music the other doesn't even own a radio.

I know that when we were bringing the kids up money was tight and buying music was a luxury not often enjoyed, I certainly didn't have my music system out as just didn't have the space for it, kids stuff took precedence and my hifi went to the loft and stayed there for over 20 years.

My eldest is impressed with my new system and states that he will get himself one one day (or inherit mine!!), in the meantime he buys musics from artists he likes so that he has them and can play them at a later date, apparently the LP's he buys are collectors editions so he is buying when they are released not at a later date when he has his system.

Maybe HiFi is an oldies thing as we have other priorities as the kids grow up, can some youngsters chip in on this and add their 10c?

 

[Gray]

...can some youngsters chip in on this and add their 10c?

You'll be lucky.
Youngsters ask one question then go (can't blame them if they see cable threads).
No regular is under 40, although I think I am.

 

[Oxfordian]

You'll be lucky.
Youngsters ask one question then go (can't blame them if they see cable threads).
No regular is under 40, although I think I am.

 

[shadders]

Maybe HiFi is an oldies thing as we have other priorities as the kids grow up, can some youngsters chip in on this and add their 10c?

Hi,
I think there are two main factors, that Hifi is not an aspiration as it was in the 1970's or 1980's, and the internet means the young people can listen to any song they like for free (illegal) or subscription based, on any device such as a mobile.

It has become quantity over quality. Seems to be that music is something for the background, as opposed to just sitting and listening to the album as a specific hobby or event.

Youngsters ask one question then go (can't blame them if they see cable threads).

There is a thread on PFM about USB cables, and another on networks where a second hand Cisco switch is seen as a hifi bargain.

This is where enthusiasts have lost the plot. If i was a commercial hifi manufacturer, i would avoid those people in a face to face discussion.

Regards,
Shadders.