Surely £5000 speakers or component is so much better than £1000 speakers or component? what do you think? So if one is not loaded with cash, like me, I will never truly enjoy hi-fi at it's best???
Is it true that money buys you quality?
- Thread starter gbhsi1
- Start date
I've heard it said that the improvements get smaller as you spend more.
You neednt spend a fortune to get great sound.
My system has cost me maybe £200 but with a few choice mods it sounds as good as if not better than my fathers Naim/linn setup.
You neednt spend a fortune to get great sound.
My system has cost me maybe £200 but with a few choice mods it sounds as good as if not better than my fathers Naim/linn setup.
As a very very general rule higher priced items do out perform cheaper models, with performance, looks and build quality. That said synergy is exceptionally important and there are entry level and mid priced systems that would trouble much more expensive set ups.
As long as you have some good music you will be alright.
Nick
As long as you have some good music you will be alright.
Nick
I think that in general, the better the performance the more people will pay. But this doesn't always translate to mean the more that a company charges, the better the performance.
For instance, pick a £5k set of speakers. Some will be very flexible and some very picky about being partnered correctly. An upgrade to your system in one case and a downgrade if you choose wrongly in another. So matching components into your system is vital.
Buying second hand, the right kit, can save you a fortune and keep residual values in your kit high. My Dali speakers should have cost £6k for the front 3 and I paid £2950 for less than one year old and in mint condition. Couldn't have afforded them otherwise, and really couldn't anyway, but as they'll hold their value I bought them. Best decision I ever made.
Occasionally a manufacturer brings out a piece of kit that is giant killing and effectively miss priced. I won't name any because I spend all my time harping on, but on the odd occasion it happens it brings quality into the realm of affordability. When that happens it's worth jumping on it. Not often though!
For instance, pick a £5k set of speakers. Some will be very flexible and some very picky about being partnered correctly. An upgrade to your system in one case and a downgrade if you choose wrongly in another. So matching components into your system is vital.
Buying second hand, the right kit, can save you a fortune and keep residual values in your kit high. My Dali speakers should have cost £6k for the front 3 and I paid £2950 for less than one year old and in mint condition. Couldn't have afforded them otherwise, and really couldn't anyway, but as they'll hold their value I bought them. Best decision I ever made.
Occasionally a manufacturer brings out a piece of kit that is giant killing and effectively miss priced. I won't name any because I spend all my time harping on, but on the odd occasion it happens it brings quality into the realm of affordability. When that happens it's worth jumping on it. Not often though!
Good system matching (and cable), speaker placement and near perfect room acoustics will yield far better results then spending more money.
I understood this even more when i compared my wharfedale evolution to a more expensive B&W 804.
Although the B&W's were a bit more refined at the topend, we agreed in the room that the Wharfedale's were even more musical.
Then we compared it to Dynaudio Excite and the Dynaudio was even better then both mentioned speakers with my amp.
I think you get the message?
I understood this even more when i compared my wharfedale evolution to a more expensive B&W 804.
Although the B&W's were a bit more refined at the topend, we agreed in the room that the Wharfedale's were even more musical.
Then we compared it to Dynaudio Excite and the Dynaudio was even better then both mentioned speakers with my amp.
I think you get the message?
Yes, the better the quality speakers will cost you a lot more cash (not always but most of the time) imo.
A pair of good crossover do cost a lot of money, then the cabinet matters, the more rigid cabinet will makes a bigger difference to speakers sound than the crossover, and can take weeks and weeks of labouring.
I remember visiting Bob at Neat Acoustic and see the process of speakers making, the more expensive range (Ultimatum) cabinets were a lot heavier than the lesser model and even the same or similar crossover/drivers were use, the Ultimatum did sound a lot better.
so there, in higher end of speakers world, your money is well spend even if doesn't seem it! (again, for most of the time).
A pair of good crossover do cost a lot of money, then the cabinet matters, the more rigid cabinet will makes a bigger difference to speakers sound than the crossover, and can take weeks and weeks of labouring.
I remember visiting Bob at Neat Acoustic and see the process of speakers making, the more expensive range (Ultimatum) cabinets were a lot heavier than the lesser model and even the same or similar crossover/drivers were use, the Ultimatum did sound a lot better.
so there, in higher end of speakers world, your money is well spend even if doesn't seem it! (again, for most of the time).
I think the homework a buyer does in finding the right synergy will yield more satisfactory results than nipping out and buying a pair of £5k speakers (or other item). It might work, but it might not. You'll get something that's well built, hopefully with high quality components but how that partners up with other equipment can sometimes be a lottery.
Here is my opinion, if I spend £100 on speakers, there going to sound ok, with £200, they will sound good. Now let's just say I spend £10,000 on speakers, they will sound fantastic, if I spend £10,200, it will sound just the same. If I spend £20,000, it won't be a huge improvement, the more you spend, the smaller the differences are, like if I spend £300 on a cable, it will sound just slightly better!
I forgot to mention that i also heard a pair of MBL speakers...
http://images.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/MBL_101X-treme.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/speakerlist.htm&usg=__vK0qcrFobL4e7Ib-26Z8OzAp-BU=&h=677&w=793&sz=110&hl=nl&start=1&um=1&tbnid=RwEf-4tNCjzYiM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmbl%2Bspeakers%26hl%3Dnl%26rlz%3D1T4DVXE_enBE304BE304%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
A live recording of the Eagles, Hotel California was playing.
They were very transparent but where was the musicality, the emotion???
http://images.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/MBL_101X-treme.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/speakerlist.htm&usg=__vK0qcrFobL4e7Ib-26Z8OzAp-BU=&h=677&w=793&sz=110&hl=nl&start=1&um=1&tbnid=RwEf-4tNCjzYiM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmbl%2Bspeakers%26hl%3Dnl%26rlz%3D1T4DVXE_enBE304BE304%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
A live recording of the Eagles, Hotel California was playing.
They were very transparent but where was the musicality, the emotion???
Great topic!
In general, the answer is yes, simply because better construction and parts are more costly. However, the real problem is with the definition of quality. Nobody in the audio hobby agrees on what constitutes quality.
If I gave £8000 to 10 different audio industry experts and asked for the best system they could purchase, they would all obviously create different systems, but what's really interesting is that all 10 systems would sound remarkably different.
The question you are really asking is: Do I need to spend a fortune to get amazing sound? The answer is no. I really don't believe there is much point in spending more than £6000 tops on a dream audio system (that's all in, cables and everything). And you can achieve most of that sound with just £3000.
The key IS money, but not the way you think. It's not about buying super expensive products, it's about system synergy and that requires buying many mid priced products and trying them until you find the special combination that works for you, your music tastes, and your environment. This approach will eventually create the most satisfying system in my opinion.
In general, the answer is yes, simply because better construction and parts are more costly. However, the real problem is with the definition of quality. Nobody in the audio hobby agrees on what constitutes quality.
If I gave £8000 to 10 different audio industry experts and asked for the best system they could purchase, they would all obviously create different systems, but what's really interesting is that all 10 systems would sound remarkably different.
The question you are really asking is: Do I need to spend a fortune to get amazing sound? The answer is no. I really don't believe there is much point in spending more than £6000 tops on a dream audio system (that's all in, cables and everything). And you can achieve most of that sound with just £3000.
The key IS money, but not the way you think. It's not about buying super expensive products, it's about system synergy and that requires buying many mid priced products and trying them until you find the special combination that works for you, your music tastes, and your environment. This approach will eventually create the most satisfying system in my opinion.
I remember being totally satify with my Acoustic Zen Adagio (£4000ish) I thought the speakers was a lot better than my previous (stop gap, must say) Tottem Arro (£800).
and then a dealer send me a pair of ART Emotion Signature (£9000) to try at home, the step up was massive. The overall sound was a lot better, so much so that my credit card was come out quicker than you can say "crunch" .
and then a dealer send me a pair of ART Emotion Signature (£9000) to try at home, the step up was massive. The overall sound was a lot better, so much so that my credit card was come out quicker than you can say "crunch" .
TheHomeCinemaCentre:
As a very very general rule higher priced items do out perform cheaper models, with performance, looks and build quality. That said synergy is exceptionally important and there are entry level and mid priced systems that would trouble much more expensive set ups.
As long as you have some good music you will be alright.
Nick
I agree. The more money I have spent, after testing & research of products that fit my system best, there has always been an improvement. Sometimes massive, sometimes small. They key is whether you can hear these differences to make it have a value for yourself.
As a very very general rule higher priced items do out perform cheaper models, with performance, looks and build quality. That said synergy is exceptionally important and there are entry level and mid priced systems that would trouble much more expensive set ups.
As long as you have some good music you will be alright.
Nick
I agree. The more money I have spent, after testing & research of products that fit my system best, there has always been an improvement. Sometimes massive, sometimes small. They key is whether you can hear these differences to make it have a value for yourself.
ajharris:Now let's just say I spend £10,000 on speakers, they will sound fantastic, if I spend £10,200, it will sound just the same.
But presumably only if you've just bought the exact same speakers and been charged an extra £200!
Greetings from the Pedants Corner (or is that Pedant's.....damn....)
But presumably only if you've just bought the exact same speakers and been charged an extra £200!
Greetings from the Pedants Corner (or is that Pedant's.....damn....)
Thaiman:
I remember being totally satify with my Acoustic Zen Adagio (£4000ish) I thought the speakers was a lot better than my previous (stop gap, must say) Tottem Arro (£800).
and then a dealer send me a pair of ART Emotion Signature (£9000) to try at home, the step up was massive. The overall sound was a lot better, so much so that my credit card was come out quicker than you can say "crunch" .
Yes, yes, yes.....
"Using up to the minute driver technology and Birchply and Hardwood construction techniques for the cabinets, we created a balance of ease of drive, efficiency and linear response.
There are 3 models which differ only in the components employed in the crossover network and the internal wiring used, the Emotion, the Emotion Signature and the Emotion Silver Signature. The cabinets and drive units are the same for each model which makes it possible to upgrade from one to the other thus keeping the initial investment intact."
You are having to get into really serious high end speakers to get the crossover and internal wiring quality...... Hand wound copper air core Inductors and Clarity Cap custom made SA series capacitors
Internal Wiring - Premium quality OFC copper internal wiring.
SignatureSeries....Jensen copper-foil inductors, Jensen copper-foil paper-inoil capacitors, Caddock non-inductive resistors and Kondo KSL SPC copper wiring.
They take your breath away with the naturalness with the music.
I am laughing all the way to the bank with the spec crossovers in my RS8's along with Kimberkable 4TC internal wiring and long wool fibre damping. Whilst they are probably not quite up to the Emotion Signatures I bet they are not far off them. 🙂)
They say knowledge is power, serious upgrades can be made on quality mid range items which can punch well above there price point if you know what to modify. So very good systems can be put together which sound outstanding.
I remember being totally satify with my Acoustic Zen Adagio (£4000ish) I thought the speakers was a lot better than my previous (stop gap, must say) Tottem Arro (£800).
and then a dealer send me a pair of ART Emotion Signature (£9000) to try at home, the step up was massive. The overall sound was a lot better, so much so that my credit card was come out quicker than you can say "crunch" .
Yes, yes, yes.....
"Using up to the minute driver technology and Birchply and Hardwood construction techniques for the cabinets, we created a balance of ease of drive, efficiency and linear response.
There are 3 models which differ only in the components employed in the crossover network and the internal wiring used, the Emotion, the Emotion Signature and the Emotion Silver Signature. The cabinets and drive units are the same for each model which makes it possible to upgrade from one to the other thus keeping the initial investment intact."
You are having to get into really serious high end speakers to get the crossover and internal wiring quality...... Hand wound copper air core Inductors and Clarity Cap custom made SA series capacitors
Internal Wiring - Premium quality OFC copper internal wiring.
SignatureSeries....Jensen copper-foil inductors, Jensen copper-foil paper-inoil capacitors, Caddock non-inductive resistors and Kondo KSL SPC copper wiring.
They take your breath away with the naturalness with the music.
I am laughing all the way to the bank with the spec crossovers in my RS8's along with Kimberkable 4TC internal wiring and long wool fibre damping. Whilst they are probably not quite up to the Emotion Signatures I bet they are not far off them. 🙂)
They say knowledge is power, serious upgrades can be made on quality mid range items which can punch well above there price point if you know what to modify. So very good systems can be put together which sound outstanding.
Hi Trevor.
Im not doubting you for one minute but are you
saying that your modded RS8s at around £850 will sound almost as good as a £9000 pair
of ART Emotions?
How much did the materials to do this cost? What sort of skills are required to do this?
Im not doubting you for one minute but are you
saying that your modded RS8s at around £850 will sound almost as good as a £9000 pair
of ART Emotions?
How much did the materials to do this cost? What sort of skills are required to do this?
Trevor, i am not gonna knock your RS8 as I never heard them but the standard Emotion is good but not great, the signature version though is properbly one of the best I have heard including few pair I have demo at home that cost twice the price (that's why i bought them). I have been a modder myself, that's how I start off my hobby so good luck and enjoy.
idc
Well-known member
- Jan 2, 2008
- 1,175
- 153
- 19,370
Yes more money can buy you better quality, but it is not guaranteed. As others have said, synergy and can your livingroom take that high end system are more important than cost. Diminishing returns set in quickly and very much so over £1000 per item IMO.
Thaiman, As well I am in no way knocking the superb reports you have made on them, far from it. I have been amazed over the last 30 years how really good kit can be modded onto totally new levels.
Stuff like Quad, Rogers, Meridian, even Ken Ishiwata's Marantz M6 Signatures Mono block amps!
With the ART Emotions range the only difference in the thousand of pounds cost is in the cross overs and internal wiring, the component costs being about 20% of the retail prices!
The skills to build Cross over units I would say are reasonable, certainly above starting out levels, but it is not rocket science if you know your away around circuit layouts and more importantly the right components to use.
When the music starts to grab your attention (and not the Hi Fi) you know you are getting onto something special.IMHO
Stuff like Quad, Rogers, Meridian, even Ken Ishiwata's Marantz M6 Signatures Mono block amps!
With the ART Emotions range the only difference in the thousand of pounds cost is in the cross overs and internal wiring, the component costs being about 20% of the retail prices!
The skills to build Cross over units I would say are reasonable, certainly above starting out levels, but it is not rocket science if you know your away around circuit layouts and more importantly the right components to use.
When the music starts to grab your attention (and not the Hi Fi) you know you are getting onto something special.IMHO
Bodfish:
ajharris:Now let's just say I spend £10,000 on speakers, they will sound fantastic, if I spend £10,200, it will sound just the same.
But presumably only if you've just bought the exact same speakers and been charged an extra £200!
Greetings from the Pedants Corner (or is that Pedant's.....damn....)
I didn't mean it literally like that!
ajharris:Now let's just say I spend £10,000 on speakers, they will sound fantastic, if I spend £10,200, it will sound just the same.
But presumably only if you've just bought the exact same speakers and been charged an extra £200!
Greetings from the Pedants Corner (or is that Pedant's.....damn....)
I didn't mean it literally like that!
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
Captain Destructo:
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
What has this got to do with music?
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
What has this got to do with music?
Captain Destructo:
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
I don't think I could stomach having a £10,000 system sitting in a room...
Why should you need to anyway? Are people saying they can't enjoy listening to music unless it's a close-to-perfect reproduction?
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
raym87:Captain Destructo:
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
I think the poster was referring to people that take the hobby to the extreme. It's a powerful question and one that everyone should think about at least for a minute. There is a lot of decadence in the (so called) wealthy contries and horrific poverty in the unwealthy countries.
The problem is that even if you live a frugal and austere life, donating most income to 3rd world causes, your selflessness does little to impact the problem. What is needed is for ALL people or at least most to give some reasonable portion of their earnings for 3rd world aid. Hey, that's a great idea. We could call it "taxes". What a minute...never mind...
I think the majority of people would in fact donate the bulk of their income if that act would truly stamp out world hunger or 3rd world disease.
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
I think the poster was referring to people that take the hobby to the extreme. It's a powerful question and one that everyone should think about at least for a minute. There is a lot of decadence in the (so called) wealthy contries and horrific poverty in the unwealthy countries.
The problem is that even if you live a frugal and austere life, donating most income to 3rd world causes, your selflessness does little to impact the problem. What is needed is for ALL people or at least most to give some reasonable portion of their earnings for 3rd world aid. Hey, that's a great idea. We could call it "taxes". What a minute...never mind...
I think the majority of people would in fact donate the bulk of their income if that act would truly stamp out world hunger or 3rd world disease.
jaxwired:raym87:Captain Destructo:
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
I think the poster was referring to people that take the hobby to the extreme. It's a powerful question and one that everyone should think about at least for a minute. There is a lot of decadence in the (so called) wealthy contries and horrific poverty in the unwealthy countries.
The problem is that even if you live a frugal and austere life, donating most income to 3rd world causes, your selflessness does little to impact the problem. What is needed is for ALL people or at least most to give some reasonable portion of their earnings for 3rd world aid. Hey, that's a great idea. We could call it "taxes". What a minute...never mind...
I think the majority of people would in fact donate the bulk of their income if that act would truly stamp out world hunger or 3rd world disease.
How do we define "extreme"? For some people, £135K (the price of the most expensive speakers I've encountered on the net) is loose change, for others it's 10 yrs pay. Either way, as someone else said, it's up to the individual to spend his cash however he likes.
As for donating the bulk of one's income, if you mean one person, then who gets to be the saviour? and if it's all of us, I doubt you'd find it a popular election platform. In the UK people never seem to vote in large numbers for parties that threaten (or promise, in some cases) to raise taxes, even if it is for "good" causes.
Back on topic. If a few £ worth of capacitors, a soldering iron and some knowhow is all it takes to transform some of the off-the-shelf speakers into something from another class, why don't the manufacturers of said speakers do it: I'm sure they'd recoup the outlay.
What I can't understand is how people can spend large amounts of money of Hi-fi when there are millions of people starving, dieing from diseases caused by unsanatory conditions etc.
You are obviously waiting for someone to bite so lets pretend I'm your first fish of the day. The way I see it is this....I have worked damn hard for the money I get and if I choose to spend it on hifi, a fancy car or even the nightshift lady standing on a street corner.....I will. If I want to support charities and give it all away to some good cause, I will. What I dont need is someone making, pressurising or moralising me into making decisions. I am old enough and ugly enough to be able to do that for myself and thats exectly what I'm going to do. You obviously have very stongly held views and thats a good thing. Voltaire would be poud of you but like the previous poster said.....'whats this got to do with music?'
I think the poster was referring to people that take the hobby to the extreme. It's a powerful question and one that everyone should think about at least for a minute. There is a lot of decadence in the (so called) wealthy contries and horrific poverty in the unwealthy countries.
The problem is that even if you live a frugal and austere life, donating most income to 3rd world causes, your selflessness does little to impact the problem. What is needed is for ALL people or at least most to give some reasonable portion of their earnings for 3rd world aid. Hey, that's a great idea. We could call it "taxes". What a minute...never mind...
I think the majority of people would in fact donate the bulk of their income if that act would truly stamp out world hunger or 3rd world disease.
How do we define "extreme"? For some people, £135K (the price of the most expensive speakers I've encountered on the net) is loose change, for others it's 10 yrs pay. Either way, as someone else said, it's up to the individual to spend his cash however he likes.
As for donating the bulk of one's income, if you mean one person, then who gets to be the saviour? and if it's all of us, I doubt you'd find it a popular election platform. In the UK people never seem to vote in large numbers for parties that threaten (or promise, in some cases) to raise taxes, even if it is for "good" causes.
Back on topic. If a few £ worth of capacitors, a soldering iron and some knowhow is all it takes to transform some of the off-the-shelf speakers into something from another class, why don't the manufacturers of said speakers do it: I'm sure they'd recoup the outlay.
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