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Is it just me? But Technics 300eur CDP is better than Naim CD5x

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idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
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Matthew, regarding your new signature:

Cambridge Audio 340C/MF V-DAC/Denon TU1800DAB
Cambridge Audio 740A
Mordaunt-Short Mezzo 2
Chord Company Chameleon Silver +/Rumour 2

This system is incredible!

What has made it incredible? Is it overall synergy, the addition of the DAC, the speakers, the detail you spoke of in your last post, can you put your finger on it?

P.S - which cable do you use to connect DAC to amp?
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2007
299
95
18,970
idc:
Matthew, regarding your new signature:

Cambridge Audio 340C/MF V-DAC/Denon TU1800DAB
Cambridge Audio 740A
Mordaunt-Short Mezzo 2
Chord Company Chameleon Silver +/Rumour 2

This system is incredible!

What has made it incredible? Is it overall synergy, the addition of the DAC, the speakers, the detail you spoke of in your last post, can you put your finger on it?

P.S - which cable do you use to connect DAC to amp?

I think its overall synergy and that everything has its part to play. I can't actually put it down to one aspect of the system, although the DAC is clearly important because, without it, I lose some of the spaciousness and sense of air in the soundstage. I think the amp is vital because it seems to power the Mezzos so effortlessly and, with all that current, they are an incredibly well balanced and insightful listen. Somehow I've hit upon a magic combination and I'm just listening to the music. The soundstage is huge and very stable/well defined, the dynamic range is bigger than I've ever had before and everything just sounds so natural and musical.

Cable-wise, I'm using a Prowire optical from the 340C to the DAC, then the Chord Chameleon Silver + from the DAC to the amp. I'm using Chord Crimson from the Denon tuner straight into the amplifier and that also sounds much better than I've ever heard it both on FM and DAB. The speakers are mounted on my Atacama Nexus 6 stands and are slightly toed-in, about 20cm from the rear wall and well away from any side-walls.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
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idc:Very interesting post. A few questions if you don't mind................

- how do you define 'high end'?For the purposes of my explanation, I'm defining high end as proper high end - you know those sorts of systems that you only hear at weird hi-fi shows! Also, higher end Naim systems, Linn systems, etc etc.

- is what you describe as the high end sound typical of all high end hifi, or are there particular brands you have in mind?The typical perceived sound of high end is quite dry, a little thin sounding...it's hard to put into words sometimes. There's no single high end sound really, I was talking about high end systems as most people tend to think of them.

- since high end is about detail, does it not suffer more from poorly recorded music?Yes. Badly recorded/mastered stuff will sound suitably bad on a high end system. I think we've all heard that. But some make them more listenable than others. Most of the time though, it can be down to the systems inability to read correctly or recreate correctly what's on the disc. There are so many variables here that you can't pin anything down to a single answer really.

- your comments about bass notes, do you mean that in high end hifi the bass is less deep sounding?This is where it gets interesting. Some systems as you go further up the scale do become very dry sounding, going for accuracy rather than a sugar coating. There are various speaker designs on the market that will bring out the bass more, or put more emphasis on the midrange. They all have their own sound. Many bigger speakers use much bigger bass drivers and cabinet volumes, their bass tending to come across better than on smaller, equivalently priced designs. But what you get out of a speaker depends on A/ what you put in, and B/ the amplifiers ability to properly drive that speaker. I've heard some KEF Reference speakers on the end of a Bryston 3b, no slouch, which sounded great. Replace those with 7b monoblocks and you suddenly have a completely different sounding speaker that suddenly has twice as much bass which reaches deeper, possesses better control, and kicks like a mule on Red Bull.

There really are too many variables to say one specific thing, and trying to explain them all will only confuse. But just to say, there are those that prefer their music presented in a nice package topped with a bow, and those that prefer their music naked, with an unrelenting edge. Which are you?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I don't have a "high end" system but I have always liked my music "neutral leaning to clinical", meaning I don't like warm, heavy bass notes, or fake-sounding cymbals or pianos (it is hard to explain but hope you get my drift). So I have gone with systems with a reputation for being "clinical or analytical" eg Audiolab for years before it became TAG, and now Cyrus. The latter has a reputation for being "slightly brighter than average" but to me that translates into more "clinical/analytical" and I love the sound my system produces with Spendor speakers which are quite neutral. Yes, the Cyrus kit produces less bass than my Audiolab/Mission 753 combo but to me the former sounds more accurate as there is definitely a better "start"/"stop" to the musical notes and everything is tighter, better separated and better controlled (especially with the Mono Xs). And yes, sometimes it "hurts" when someone loudly strikes a cymbal, and often I feel the force of the kick drum being kicked, but to hear how a piano should really sound like for example in a Diana Krall track is heaven.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Surely the point is to accurately represent the musician's intention, tone and touch. Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce, there's no denying that the Mark Knopfler's tone is sweet when he plays, as is that, though to a lesser extent, of Richard Thompson and Eric Clapton. Slash, Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck, however, generally have a lot harder, more attacking tone. In other words, the aim is neutrality throughout, and not to allow the electronics to get in the way of the intention.

It's the same with other genres, too. Taking classical, a solo violin when played by Hilary Hahn or ÿJuliet Fischer is accurate but colder in tone than when Janine Jansen plays the same piece, and that's what you should hear. Similarly with piano, where some players have a lighter tough than others. Again, it's the work of the hifi to enable the listener to hear the difference without putting a slant on it.

The problem is that lower end systems add a lot more than higher end ones, whether it be forwardness, which sounds detailed but at the cost of sweeter voicing, or warmth, which is taken to mean warm and woolly. Also, there's a group of listeners who love slam and lots of hard-hitting bass, because it sounds so exciting if not necessarily realistic.ÿ

There's also the misconception of 'clinical', 'ruthless' sound. That's fine, if you want to listen to music dissected to its component parts, but that's really not what groups, quartets, orchestras really want. You listen to the whole, and the solo component when the artist deems appropriate. This doesn't means, for example, that you shouldn't be able ÿto follow the bass lines in a Yes recording, for example, but that you should also be able to listen to it in context and together with the other instruments. ÿ

All of which means any system should sound truthful, and high-end systems doubly so. The problem is that to do so not only costs a lot of money, ÿbut also that individuals hear differently, so what is truthful to someone is grating to another. Another difficulty is that amplified music can sound vastly different from one exponent to another - it's fair to say the intention of Motorhead, for example, is different from that of Pink Floyd, so they adjust their electronics accordingly. Designers certainly bear this in mind, but it is hard especially for speaker designers to come up with compromises that cover all genres effectively. An example is Sonus Faber, whose speakers are designed primarily for classical music, and which means, though by no means warm, their voicing is less successful with Nirvana. It's by no means bad, by the way, and all the detail is there, but it's not thrown at you in the way which KC intended, because grating was a part of his intention. On the other hand, they do classics, jazz and rock in a way few other speakers can.

Iÿ
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Rock guitarists, not classical guitarists, is what I meant. It's been a long, hard day.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
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Tarquinh:Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce.....

Saying any classical music, guitar or otherwise, or ANY form of music is "for the nonce" is reprehensible no matter how hard a day you have had.
 

ElectroMan

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2008
30
0
18,540
I know there are other meanings, but the original one is this:

-noun
the present, or immediate, occasion or purpose (usually used in the phrase for the nonce).


Origin:
1150-1200; ME nones, in phrase for the nones, by faulty division of for then ones for the once (ME then dat. sing. of the 1 ; ones once )
 

manicm

Well-known member
May 1, 2008
598
67
18,970
AKL:I don't have a "high end" system but I have always liked my music "neutral leaning to clinical", meaning I don't like warm, heavy bass notes, or fake-sounding cymbals or pianos (it is hard to explain but hope you get my drift). So I have gone with systems with a reputation for being "clinical or analytical" eg Audiolab for years before it became TAG, and now Cyrus. The latter has a reputation for being "slightly brighter than average" but to me that translates into more "clinical/analytical" and I love the sound my system produces with Spendor speakers which are quite neutral. Yes, the Cyrus kit produces less bass than my Audiolab/Mission 753 combo but to me the former sounds more accurate as there is definitely a better "start"/"stop" to the musical notes and everything is tighter, better separated and better controlled (especially with the Mono Xs). And yes, sometimes it "hurts" when someone loudly strikes a cymbal, and often I feel the force of the kick drum being kicked, but to hear how a piano should really sound like for example in a Diana Krall track is heaven.

I lean toward the same :) - I appreciate good imaging and depth. I don't mind a bright sound as long as sibilance is not prevalent.
 

Craig M.

New member
Mar 20, 2008
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Tarquinh:Yes, that's exactly right. So why is Chebby so upset?

i understand why chebby got upset, i had no idea that could mean present! not sure you want to know another meaning!!
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
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BrandoBg:
Hi everyone!

I have recently bought a brand new Naim CD5X and I spent one whole day comparing it to my 10 years old Technics CD player which was about 300 eur. I kept on switching Naim/Technics/Naim/Technics at the same part of the song on two indentical CDs. There was NO DIFFERENCE in reproduction of these CDP!! Is it just a BIG fraud or are my ears deceiving? Is it because it still isn's run in because I got it 3 days ago.

I only hope that it will do better job after a while and after adding additional power supply (Flat Cap 2x).

My amp is Nait XS which is excellent compairing it to my old amp.

Only just come into this thread and I'd probably loose the will to live if I'd read every post. So if what I have to say has been mentioned already ... you know I'm right


Despite recent inclusion of RCA's, I doubt Naim conciously develop their components to be used outside their own systems and thus they tend to match well with their respectively priced partners in the companies portfolio, in your case the XS. If your old banger of player happens to sound similar, you've probably stroke pot luck, gratulations to you. But as the very same player will probably give it's ghost up somewhere in the near feature, if used regularely and ends up un-repairable because of lack of spares, a guess, it does'nt really matter does it?

Whether the CD5x is 'worth' over 1.5k in isolation ... I can't answer that. What I do know is that it makes very fine music with the XS, imo the best separates system under 3k excl. speakers and that drawer is is lovely.

As always my opinion only.
 

method man

New member
May 18, 2009
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Tarquinh:Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce.....
Eh? !!!!


tickled me too. my friend is a screw at belmarsh. he informs me that they are known as 'bacons'

amongst the inmates.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Still lost. Only know the one meaning, the original one, but something tells me I'd be better off staying that way!
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Tarquinh:Surely the point is to accurately represent the musician's intention, tone and touch.

Well that's the crux of the argument, isn't it? And many would argue to the contrary. If I go to a restaurant, order a dish, try it, and think it lacks salt, then I'm going to call the waiter over and ask for the cellar. It doesn't matter to me that what I've got in front of me is exactly what the chef intended; he's just the one who cooked it. I'm the one who's got to eat it.
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
1,039
10
19,195
FrankHarveyHiFi:...... But just to say, there are those that prefer their music presented in a nice package topped with a bow, and those that prefer their music naked, with an unrelenting edge. Which are you?

Thanks for the reply Dave. As for which one am I, I am not sure. Whenever I have gone to a hifi dealers and they have asked about the sound that I like my answer has always been clarity above all. I like to hear what is going on and to be able to pick out and follow different instruments. But I also like a bit of bass and drive. From what you have said the desire for clarity is high end, but the desire for an emphasis on bass is not. So I think that the answer is a bit of both, but clarity over drive.

I really liked your post as it helped to make sense of Antony Michaelson's description of the sound from Musical Fidelity kit and my new amp in particular;

' Just a few listening notes on the V8P compared to the V2. Because the V8P has no effective voltage or current limit it will never clip into any headphone and always remain completely linier. This has a counter intuitive effect of possibly making it sound less "exciting" or "rhythmic". Its just that unlike any other headphone amp it doesn't limit. Most audiophiles are so used to the sudden peaks of distortion caused by limiting and clipping that they think that that is a hi-fi sound. Little could be further from the truth'
 

SteveR750

New member
Mar 11, 2005
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FrankHarveyHiFi:
Let's take a look at that system. The SUA900 was well known for being stupidly powerful, but didn't really have any finesse to go with it. It was an overly warm sound (nice some might say, but when playing something loud when it's smooth is usually initially impressive), which lacked detail due to it's tonal balance, which would be made worse if people used the tone controls and loudness button. Other than this at the time there was Arcam's Alpha 9, which was also wam and smooth, but walked all over it with regards to out and out musicality. CD players were Technics strong point. They were excellent players for the money, and were always the most popular too, as they were all mostly under £200. This was the only thing that really held a Technics system together. It injected some life into their otherwise 'dull' sounding amplifiers. Many Technics users usually bought Wharfedale Modus or Valdus speakers with them, as it just added more of the same. Those who wanted to spend a bit more money bought B&W 600 series 1, again because it was more of the same, but sounded better than the 'Dales. The sound suited certain types of music, and certain types of customer, and no matter how much you pitted the Technics system against anything else, regardless of price, they'd never go for it. It was because the sound the system made was the sound they wanted - even if everything else in the shop sounded better in almost every way.

I hope all that doesn't get taken the wrong way, but I'm just pointing out a few things from my retail days at the same company as Rick. So I'm not talking from an inexperienced point of view here.

Also I'd like to say, having said what I've said above, the Technics sound is quite different from someone like Naim. You only have to do an A/B with some amplification to prove this. As far as CD players are concerned, I can understand this being closer, but I'll try and explain it in one way. Higher end hi-fi gives you a more accurate portrayal of what's on the disc. It's tighter, it's more detailed. Those last two things bring about certain changes that many people don't like. Tighter usually means a perceived reduction in bass - usually because bass notes are starting and stopping when they should do, rather than continuing when they really shouldn't. Also, with more detail comes more HF content. Or an opening up of. Depending on how you want to look at things. A drummer is playing a set of drums in the room you're sitting in. When he hits the crash cymbal, it's not smooth. It's not nice. That, to me, is accurate. Playing a well mastered CD on a high end system (although never really fully recreating that same drumming experience - physically impossible), you can hear the similarities. You know the system is doing it's job. Play that same CD on a cheaper, warmer system, and you'll get a supressed version of what went before it. It will have lost that elading edge, which to some is called accuracy, and to others is called soft/veiled, amongst a number of other things. Gone is the higher frequency detail, robbing it of it's spacial information and it's leading edge, and gone is the exacting kick of the original too. For many, this 'watered down' version is hi-fi bliss as it's easier on the ear, to others it's just a pale imitation of what should be there.

I totally agree with so much of this, and this is a perfect example maybe of how to judge an accurate system. Anyone with a drum kit in their house will know that after a while it hurts your ears, because a) its loud and b) its pretty crashy. A snare drum has such massive "attack" that frankly no hi fi system I ever heard yet comes close - and try this - record your drum kit, then record the playback of the recording and compare to the original recording. One of the things I apreciate about my system is that it makes a stab at differentiating between mediocre and class, both from the talent (or lack of) of the instrumentalists, and also of the producer. ***** CD's sounds just that, good ones are much much more impressive and *realistic*
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
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Thank you Steve.

As I mentioned in that post, it is physically impossible for a system to reproduce a drum track, for example.

Referring to your last line, it's a case of whether people want to hear the mix as it is intended, warts and all, or whether they want to smooth it al out, change it's tonal balance, lose it's attack abd detail, etc etc. For me, hearing it as it should be is how I like it. I don't want to hear Nevermind presented to me 'nicely', it's just not correct.
 

method man

New member
May 18, 2009
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chebby:method man:Tarquinh:Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce.....
Eh? !!!!






tickled me too. my friend is a screw at belmarsh. he informs me that they are known as 'bacons'

amongst the inmates.

Craig M.:i understand why chebby got upset, i had no idea
that could mean present! not sure you want to know another meaning!!

Exactly.

A 'nonce' is a very well known and commonly used term for a sex offender.

It reads as if you are eschewing classical music because you think it's for nonces.

or indeed that nonces dont like it. LOL

By the way, NONCE stands for Not On Normal Communal Exercise.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
chebby:method man:Tarquinh:Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce.....
Eh? !!!!

ÿ

ÿ

tickled me too. my friend is a screw at belmarsh. he informs me that they are known as 'bacons'

amongst the inmates.

Craig M.:i understand why chebby got upset, i had no ideathat could mean present!ÿ not sure you want to know another meaning!!

Exactly.

A 'nonce' is a very well known and commonly used term for a sex offender.

It reads as if you are eschewing classical music because you think it's for nonces.ÿ

No, it reads as though I'm not going to discuss classical music for the present, ÿimplying I will return to that later, which is precisely how the post was written. Any other interpretation ignores the context.
 

JoelSim

New member
Aug 24, 2007
767
1
0
Tarquinh:chebby:method man:Tarquinh:Using guitarists as an example, and eschewing classical music for the nonce.....
Eh? !!!!

ÿ

ÿ

tickled me too. my friend is a screw at belmarsh. he informs me that they are known as 'bacons'

amongst the inmates.

Craig M.:i understand why chebby got upset, i had no ideathat could mean present!ÿ not sure you want to know another meaning!!

Exactly.

A 'nonce' is a very well known and commonly used term for a sex offender.

It reads as if you are eschewing classical music because you think it's for nonces.ÿ

No, it reads as though I'm not going to discuss classical music for the present, ÿimplying I will return to that later, which is precisely how the post was written. Any other interpretation ignores the context.

You see what happens when you don't believe in mains cables...let that be a lesson to you

ÿ
 

glenaim

New member
Jun 16, 2006
0
0
0
You know NOTHING at all about hifi or music or good sound.you listen to music off of a laptop- what a joke.i have got an lp12/lingo 2/ ekos2/arkiva and a cdi cd player a 82 preamp,140 power amp and proac studio 140 speakers. The source will ALWAYS be the determining factor in the quality of your music system- what has not been extracted from the cd or the vinyl ,cannot be amplified by the amp or heard through the speakers.unless you are listening to 96/192 high quality streaming,you wont even be getting cd quality sound through your system,so all the rest of your system is useless.i heard a pair of hd800 and audeze headphones the other day,and trilogy and naim headphone amps,and they were very good with a naim cd player,but with arega planr 8 turntable package that was thevsame price as the cd player,they finally really sounded great.
 

glenaim

New member
Jun 16, 2006
0
0
0
You know NOTHING at all about hifi or music or good sound.you listen to music off of a laptop- what a joke.i have got an lp12/lingo 2/ ekos2/arkiva and a cdi cd player a 82 preamp,140 power amp and proac studio 140 speakers. The source will ALWAYS be the determining factor in the quality of your music system- what has not been extracted from the cd or the vinyl ,cannot be amplified by the amp or heard through the speakers.unless you are listening to 96/192 high quality streaming,you wont even be getting cd quality sound through your system,so all the rest of your system is useless.i heard a pair of hd800 and audeze headphones the other day,and trilogy and naim headphone amps,and they were very good with a naim cd player,but with arega planr 8 turntable package that was thevsame price as the cd player,they finally really sounded great.
 

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