Is it just me? But Technics 300eur CDP is better than Naim CD5x

[idc]

chebby:

I suggest leaving the OP to his own decisions without all this 'baying for blood'.

I may have come over a bit strong BrandoBg, but it is not 'baying for blood', it is down to surprise.

Chebby, 'leaving the OP to his own decisions', fine, but this is a forum and posters are looking for help with their decisions. I just feel in this case BrandoBg should take a step back a consider the money spent and possibly to be spent, which could turn out to be a huge waste of money. Remember the recent post on wasted spending on hifi? There were lots of contributers and a lot of admissions that money had been wasted.

 

[Anonymous]

The "no differnce2 bit supprises me! technic's and Naim have a very different sound to my ears...im not saying which is better becouse its a subjective thing but the technics player i would imagine is a lot warmer than a niam...Im not a beliver in digital is digital so they all sound the same, utter cobblers that one if you ask me!
I replaced a denon CD source for a roksan Kandy cdp a few months ago and it's a compleatly differnt sound (a lot better 😉

But then the op is the guy who's been able to do a sideby side of the two players...i havnt 🙂

 

[Anonymous]

chebby: I suggest leaving the OP to his own decisions without all this 'baying for blood'..... but lets not start shunting the discussion into DacMagics vs The World when his decision is between two CDPs.

Hi chebby, the OP asked for comments/feedback on this forum. I was neither "baying for blood" -- just surprised as I said in my post, nor was I starting a DACMagic vs the World discussion. I happen to own a DACMagic and was merely illustrating the fact that I did not spend ££££ on a £1,200 CDP because I did not hear enough difference.

 

[Anonymous]

PS... I spent some of the "savings" from not buying the CDP on upgrading to a pair of Mono Xs and they DID make a significant difference AND improvement. Loving the SQ from my system. I tend to think amps and speakers (rather than source) make the biggest difference. Again my personal experience only. YMMV.

 

[Anonymous]

AKL:PS... I spent some of the "savings" from not buying the CDPÿon upgrading to a pair of Mono Xs and they DID make a significant difference AND improvement.ÿLoving the SQ from my system.ÿ I tend to think amps and speakers (rather than source) makeÿthe biggest difference.ÿAgain my personal experience only. YMMV.

Absolutely spot on. The only question I have is: what does YMMV mean? I've been in France too longÿ

 

[Anonymous]

This is what surprised me too! The difference wasn't obvious! I kept on testing them but it is the same sound! Beautiful sound (just to make it clear again) but now I am begining to think that it is due to the Nait XS and the speakers and not CD5x. So I agree with you, AKL.

It's not that I don't like the sound of the combo. I adore it!! But expected more out of CD5x in comparison to Technics.

I just have to wait and see if there is any difference.

One more thing, Naim is a company which suggests using external power supply and everybody from Naim forum have said that Flat Cap or Hi Cap made a real difference to their system (talking mostly about XS and CD5x).

The model of Technics is SL-PG 590. I thought it as irrelevant since it is the budget we are talking...

 

[idc]

Brando, so despite the lack of difference in sound between Technics and Naim are you going to stick with the Naim and buy the power supply, despite the apparent lack of value for money?

What is your whole system anyway, cables, speakers etc?

 

[Anonymous]

Tarquinh: [Absolutely spot on. The only question I have is: what does YMMV mean? I've been in France too long

Sorry for "net speak" - Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby: Sorry. I just felt the villagers were gathering outside with flaming torches, chanting "Burn the Naim! Burn the Naim!"

No need to apologise chebby, but you were right, the villagers were gathering but their placards read "Save the Money! Save the Money!"

 

[MUSICRAFT]

BrandoBg:

This is what surprised me too! The difference wasn't obvious! I kept on testing them but it is the same sound! Beautiful sound (just to make it clear again) but now I am begining to think that it is due to the Nait XS and the speakers and not CD5x. So I agree with you, AKL.

It's not that I don't like the sound of the combo. I adore it!! But expected more out of CD5x in comparison to Technics.

I just have to wait and see if there is any difference.

One more thing, Naim is a company which suggests using external power supply and everybody from Naim forum have said that Flat Cap or Hi Cap made a real difference to their system (talking mostly about XS and CD5x).

The model of Technics is SL-PG 590. I thought it as irrelevant since it is the budget we are talking...

Hi BBG

Technics SL-PG590. I sold many of these. Great player and fantastic VFM.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

BrandoBg: Naim is a company which suggests using external power supply and everybody from Naim forum have said that Flat Cap or Hi Cap made a real difference to their system (talking mostly about XS and CD5x).

You can see my kit below and Cyrus also recommends the use of their external power supply PSX-R (of similar price to the Flatcap 2x), and everyone on the Cyrus forum says they make a real difference. I agree that they make a "real" (as opposed to "imagined"), but the difference is marginal, not significant. Anyone thinking of spending over £1000 on two of those PSX-Rs (or indeed Flatcap 2Xs) will be better off spending the money on upgrading amp or speaker! (or even speaker cable/interconnects!). That is why I sold one of mine and got some very nice speaker cables!

 

[Anonymous]

I meant "... over £1000 on two of those PSX-Rs (or indeed TWO Flatcap 2Xs)..." I should have made that clearer. Good for Naim to produce a power supply to feed 2 units, I didn't know that. And that is about the only Naim item which costs less than the equivalent Cyrus item, shock horror!

!

 

[SteveR750]

so is the debate about whether Naim can build a better sounding player than a Japanese super company, or whethere there is any logic in spending more money (and lots and lots of it) when thus far there is no perceived improvement?

I just wish I had a couple of old Technics CDP's lying around...

 

[idc]

SteveR750:

so is the debate about whether Naim can build a better sounding player than a Japanese super company, or whethere there is any logic in spending more money (and lots and lots of it) when thus far there is no perceived improvement?

Definitely the latter as there is little doubt that Naim make good kit.

 

[SteveR750]

idc:SteveR750:

so is the debate about whether Naim can build a better sounding player than a Japanese super company, or whethere there is any logic in spending more money (and lots and lots of it) when thus far there is no perceived improvement?

Definitely the latter as there is little doubt that Naim make good kit.

Aah but didn't Technics also do that? I guess it just shows that even when our ears tell us something, our brains/hearts tell us a different story; and not necessarily a bad thing if you are a purveyor of the expensive stuff of course!

I'd love to know what margins Technics were making out of that particular model (though I susect that they didnt really know that themselves at that time), and what Naim make on each Nait - measured as a RoS rather than a simple gross margin number.

 

[JoelSim]

Try an Arcam, much nicer than Naim in every way. And Technics.

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

idc:

Brando, so despite the lack of difference in sound between Technics and Naim are you going to stick with the Naim and buy the power supply, despite the apparent lack of value for money?

What is your whole system anyway, cables, speakers etc?

Yep!

First: it took a month until the Nait XS became pleasant for my ears. So, I guees the same thing will happen with CD5x.

Second: It that doesn't happen, I will try to make it sound better with additional power supply as I have already said.

Third: I love the music comming out of those boxes anyway. Even though it's not a WFM situation.

Forth: It simply matches my amp and can control it via R - com remote control. (it's not all about how it sounds, it's also the feel when you control it with THAT remote!!) Of course, If the sound was THAT bad, this reason would be the least important why to keep the CDP.

Last, but not the least: Lots of posibilities to upgrade with better interconnect and power cables form Naim and already mentioned power supply.

I use ProAc Studio 110, Atacama stands, NACA5 speaker cables (recomended by Naim and Naim forum loves it), as for interconnect, I use DIN cable that came with the CD5x (good choice according to the forum) Will also demo the new Hi Line interconnect, as well as power cables from Naim.

And I used RCA cables for Technics - Chord Crimson. (Another way to add oil to the fire - How can RCA be better than DIN, because according to Naim, DIN is the best way to connect the source).

 

[idc]

BrandoBg:idc:

Brando, so despite the lack of difference in sound between Technics and Naim are you going to stick with the Naim and buy the power supply, despite the apparent lack of value for money?

What is your whole system anyway, cables, speakers etc?

Yep!

First: it took a month until the Nait XS became pleasant for my ears. So, I guees the same thing will happen with CD5x.

Second: It that doesn't happen, I will try to make it sound better with additional power supply as I have already said.

Third: I love the music comming out of those boxes anyway. Even though it's not a WFM situation.

Forth: It simply matches my amp and can control it via R - com remote control. (it's not all about how it sounds, it's also the feel when you control it with THAT remote!!) Of course, If the sound was THAT bad, this reason would be the least important why to keep the CDP.

Last, but not the least: Lots of posibilities to upgrade with better interconnect and power cables form Naim and already mentioned power supply.

I use ProAc Studio 110, Atacama stands, NACA5 speaker cables (recomended by Naim and Naim forum loves it), as for interconnect, I use DIN cable that came with the CD5x (good choice according to the forum) Will also demo the new Hi Line interconnect, as well as power cables from Naim.

And I used RCA cables for Technics - Chord Crimson. (Another way to add oil to the fire - How can RCA be better than DIN, because according to Naim, DIN is the best way to connect the source).

A convincing case Brando. Your kit obviously gives you immense satisfaction, pleasure and in its own way value for money. I just wish I had your budget!

 

[manicm]

garethwd:The "no differnce2 bit supprises me! technic's and Naim have a very different sound to my ears...im not saying which is better becouse its a subjective thing but the technics player i would imagine is a lot warmer than a niam...Im not a beliver in digital is digital so they all sound the same, utter cobblers that one if you ask me! I replaced a denon CD source for a roksan Kandy cdp a few months ago and it's a compleatly differnt sound (a lot better 😉 But then the op is the guy who's been able to do a sideby side of the two players...i havnt 🙂

My old Technics CDP (no remote control!) was anything but warm, can guarantee you that, and still no hint of sibilance etc, just very clear and detailed as well with superb imaging, if not the most musical - a trait of most early CDPs. I enjoyed it immensely.

 

[manicm]

bretty:

I think the old Technics stuff was brilliant, so maybe there isn't much between it and the Naim.

I recently heard an old technics integrated amp. It was 'Class AA', and it was absolutely beautiful sounding. I had a chat with the dealer about it. He said a lot to say about it, which all went over my head, but I remember him saying that something in the amp was made from bamboo. Yes, bamboo!

Anyway, point being, it was £135 second-hand, but sounded like it cost a hell of a lot more!

Bretty, I had an old Technics SU-V4X 'New Class A' amp circa 1985 - I guarantee you it sounded even better than the later 'AA' variants cos mine was actually a true Class A amp - 60w and heated the room with it as well. In fact the 'AA's were no match for the 'A's and marked the decline of Technics amps and their other hifi, bar the A900.

My amp lasted me 19 years! Could not find replacement ICs so had to bin it.

 

[Anonymous]

I still have a technics su-a900mk2 with the sl-pg490 plugged into a pair of tannoy R1 bookshelfs and in all honesty gives me a very enjoyable sound. I have now upgraded to a home cinema system as my main system but often listen to the old system in another room and still love the sound of it.

Yes I agree I have heard a naim setup at a highly regarded retailer and it was beautiful but taking the price difference in equation im not sure I could justify it. I also had a SU-V4 about 15 years ago with some old missions and that system was very nice until the amp went wrong. If your happy with the sl-pg590 keep it, though i will admit it probably looks abit budget compared to some of the kit available now.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Let's take a look at that system. The SUA900 was well known for being stupidly powerful, but didn't really have any finesse to go with it. It was an overly warm sound (nice some might say, but when playing something loud when it's smooth is usually initially impressive), which lacked detail due to it's tonal balance, which would be made worse if people used the tone controls and loudness button. Other than this at the time there was Arcam's Alpha 9, which was also wam and smooth, but walked all over it with regards to out and out musicality. CD players were Technics strong point. They were excellent players for the money, and were always the most popular too, as they were all mostly under £200. This was the only thing that really held a Technics system together. It injected some life into their otherwise 'dull' sounding amplifiers. Many Technics users usually bought Wharfedale Modus or Valdus speakers with them, as it just added more of the same. Those who wanted to spend a bit more money bought B&W 600 series 1, again because it was more of the same, but sounded better than the 'Dales. The sound suited certain types of music, and certain types of customer, and no matter how much you pitted the Technics system against anything else, regardless of price, they'd never go for it. It was because the sound the system made was the sound they wanted - even if everything else in the shop sounded better in almost every way.

I hope all that doesn't get taken the wrong way, I'm just relating what I know of these systemsas I used to work for a retailer that stocked them.

Also I'd like to say, having said what I've said above, the Technics sound is quite different from someone like Naim. You only have to do an A/B with some amplification to prove this. As far as CD players are concerned, I can understand this being closer, but I'll try and explain it in one way. Higher end hi-fi gives you a more accurate portrayal of what's on the disc. It's tighter, it's more detailed. Those last two things bring about certain changes that many people don't like. Tighter usually means a perceived reduction in bass - usually because bass notes are starting and stopping when they should do, rather than continuing when they really shouldn't. Also, with more detail comes more HF content. Or an opening up of. Depending on how you want to look at things. A drummer is playing a set of drums in the room you're sitting in. When he hits the crash cymbal, it's not smooth. It's not nice. That, to me, is accurate. Playing a well mastered CD on a high end system (although never really fully recreating that same drumming experience - physically impossible), you can hear the similarities. You know the system is doing it's job. Play that same CD on a cheaper, warmer system, and you'll get a supressed version of what went before it. It will have lost that elading edge, which to some is called accuracy, and to others is called soft/veiled, amongst a number of other things. Gone is the higher frequency detail, robbing it of it's spacial information and it's leading edge, and gone is the exacting kick of the original too. For many, this 'watered down' version is hi-fi bliss as it's easier on the ear, to others it's just a pale imitation of what should be there.

 

[jaxwired]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

A drummer is playing a set of drums in the room you're sitting in. When he hits the crash cymbal, it's not smooth. It's not nice. That, to me, is accurate.

Sounds really bad, but man is it ever accurate. LOL. I've got say, I have heard expensive systems that are hard on the ears. So if your goal is to achieve the scientifically most accurate sound reproduction without regard to musical enjoyment, then spend away! I'd personally rather have a totally coloured, in-accurate, distortion filled system that is thrilling, gobs of fun, and can be enjoyed for hours at a time. But that's just me...call me crazy...

 

[matthewpiano]

I must admit my opinions on all this are changing at present. I've gone to a much more neutral, accurate set-up with the 740A amp and I'm actually enjoying the music more as a result.

The music just sounds more real. Gone is the bass frequency padding that was annoying me previously. Instead the bass is there but its more like the bass levels you actually get in a real-life musical situation. The treble is beautifully open and detailed, and percussive instruments sound properly percussive instead of it sounding like the engineer placed cotton wool over the microphone.

Vocals have also benefitted. Instead of that awful hotspotting that makes voices seem impossibly massive, (depending on the recording) I now get much more of a sense of the vocals coming from a person or group of people.

Jaxwired - Nobody should call you crazy for liking what you like. Hi-fi and music is such a personal thing and its all down to individual taste.

 

[idc]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

.... Higher end hi-fi gives you a more accurate portrayal of what's on the disc. It's tighter, it's more detailed. Those last two things bring about certain changes that many people don't like. Tighter usually means a perceived reduction in bass - usually because bass notes are starting and stopping when they should do, rather than continuing when they really shouldn't. Also, with more detail comes more HF content. Or an opening up of. Depending on how you want to look at things. A drummer is playing a set of drums in the room you're sitting in. When he hits the crash cymbal, it's not smooth. It's not nice. That, to me, is accurate. Playing a well mastered CD on a high end system (although never really fully recreating that same drumming experience - physically impossible), you can hear the similarities. You know the system is doing it's job. Play that same CD on a cheaper, warmer system, and you'll get a supressed version of what went before it. It will have lost that elading edge, which to some is called accuracy, and to others is called soft/veiled, amongst a number of other things. Gone is the higher frequency detail, robbing it of it's spacial information and it's leading edge, and gone is the exacting kick of the original too. For many, this 'watered down' version is hi-fi bliss as it's easier on the ear, to others it's just a pale imitation of what should be there.

Very interesting post. A few questions if you don't mind................

- how do you define 'high end'?

- is what you describe as the high end sound typical of all high end hifi, or are there particular brands you have in mind?

- since high end is about detail, does it not suffer more from poorly recorded music?

- your comments about bass notes, do you mean that in high end hifi the bass is less deep sounding?

Thanks