IMO, Best product of 2008

[jaxwired]

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/design.php

The new Wadia 170i Transport iPOD dock is revolutionary. Most people have digital music now. For me, streamers are not the way to go. First of all a streamer requires wifi or a hard network connection. They are fequently a hassle to setup and use. They rarely deliver hi-quality sound. They usually deal with compressed music. And my biggest gripe is that they are obsolete a week after you get them. The technology changes so fast. Oh, yeah, and the good ones are expensive.

Then you have the hard disc music servers. These are easy to use and can sound great if you buy a really good one like the new NAIM. HOWEVER, they are crazy expensive! AND, once again, the technology changes and they are obsolete in 10 minutes. Try selling one on ebay that is 2 years old.

The iPOD on the other hand has not changed much year to year. Your old iPODS are still supported and even if your iPOD did become obsolete, you can get a brand new one relatively cheap. iTunes is super easy to use. Plus, most people already have an iPOD, they just don't use it for their Hi Fi. I personally did not use it because it sounds so inferior to CD playback even with lossless data. That's because the iPOD is not meant to be a hi-end audio component. It has so-so DAC and analog electronics.

But WADIA has fixed this problem! Now your iPOD can be your entire hand held music server. Providing flawless digital content to your home HiFi. The WADIA takes a pure digital signal from your iPOD and will send it to your home audio CDP (if you have a digital input) OR a good quallity DAC. This will allow playback that is indistinquishable from CDP playback assuming you have lossless data on your iPOD. There is 1 and only 1 company doing this. Just WADIA. All other iPOD docks use the iPOD's own DAC and analog electronics which produce a very noticably inferior signal. This includes such hi-end products as the KRELL KID. For 10% of the price of the KRELL product you can have better sound.

To me, this makes all the other iPOD docks irrelevant.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Wow, you're obviously a fan

You can read our review of the WADIA 170i transport here.

Incidentally, WADIA aren't the only company bypassing the iPod's DAC - the new Chord Indigo (admittedly at an eye-watering £8K) goes even further.

 

[Anonymous]

For me, it's the Rega Fono Mini. Major upgrade for not much money.

 

[jaxwired]

Clare Newsome:

Wow, you're obviously a fan

Yes and no affiliation or kickbacks (at least not yet)...

Although, for some reason the WADIA is cheaper over here in the US. I expected it to be only £250 at most for UK. But it's still a great solution, especially if you already have a DAC or a good CDP with digial inputs. If you don't, the CA DacMagic is a fantastic DAC for only £200.

But the best part of this solution is that the only component that is technology sensitive is the iPOD itself. And if that technology changes, you just buy a new one since they are cheap.

 

[Anonymous]

First of all a streamer requires wifi or a hard network connection.
They are fequently a hassle to setup and use. They rarely deliver
hi-quality sound. They usually deal with compressed music. And my
biggest gripe is that they are obsolete a week after you get them. The
technology changes so fast. Oh, yeah, and the good ones are expensive.

I don't think so .................

 

[The_Lhc]

jaxwired:
Most people have digital music now. For me, streamers are not the way to go. First of all a streamer requires wifi or a hard network connection.

And? that's not a big deal.

They are fequently a hassle to setup and use.

Sonos, easy to set up, absolute piece of the proverbial to use (hey if Jaxwired can post a Wadia advert, I can post a Sonos one!).

They rarely deliver hi-quality sound.

Best sound I've ever heard from my sources, on my admittedly not very high-end system.

They usually deal with compressed music.

Nope, I refuse to have compressed music anywhere near me, Sonos deals with uncompressed formats, FLAC, ALAC, even WAV if you want.

And my biggest gripe is that they are obsolete a week after you get them. The technology changes so fast.

Nonsense, the Sonos system hasn't materially changed since it was released, the boxes have got slightly smaller but the technology and implementation is exactly the same. In fact if you go on the Sonos forums one of the biggest gripes that some users have is that Sonos don't update their hardware often enough! The simple answer to that is that it doesn't need updating because it just works so well.

Oh, yeah, and the good ones are expensive.

These things are relative, but I can't comment on that because you haven't mentioned how much the Wadia costs and I don't know. Sonos is also multi-room and infinitely (nearly!) expandable, so you're getting added functionality for your money compared to a simple dock.

The iPOD on the other hand has not changed much year to year. Your old iPODS are still supported and even if your iPOD did become obsolete, you can get a brand new one relatively cheap. iTunes is super easy to use. Plus, most people already have an iPOD, they just don't use it for their Hi Fi. I personally did not use it because it sounds so inferior to CD playback even with lossless data. That's because the iPOD is not meant to be a hi-end audio component. It has so-so DAC and analog electronics.

But WADIA has fixed this problem! Now your iPOD can be your entire hand held music server. Providing flawless digital content to your home HiFi. The WADIA takes a pure digital signal from your iPOD and will send it to your home audio CDP (if you have a digital input) OR a good quallity DAC. This will allow playback that is indistinquishable from CDP playback assuming you have lossless data on your iPOD. There is 1 and only 1 company doing this. Just WADIA. All other iPOD docks use the iPOD's own DAC and analog electronics which produce a very noticably inferior signal. This includes such hi-end products as the KRELL KID. For 10% of the price of the KRELL product you can have better sound.

To me, this makes all the other iPOD docks irrelevant.

I don't own an iPod, pretty big flaw in the Wadia plan there! I'll stick to the Sonos, cheers.

 

[jaxwired]

I agree that sonos is a good system. It's is also rather expensive.

Regarding setup, here's the wadia setup:

Step 1: Plug in.

Step 2: Enjoy.

Hard to beat that.

The iPOD is ubiquitous. You may not have one, most music listeners do.

5 years from now, iPODs will still be everywhere. Sonos will likely be either very different that it is now or in the dust bin of history along with 50 other no longer produced music servers.

But, I agree that Sonos is a good product. I prefer simple elegant solutions. The wadia is simple.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint Exup‚ry

 

[The_Lhc]

jaxwired:
I agree that sonos is a good system. It's is also rather expensive.

Not really, I paid £700, that's for TWO Zones and the Controller, the Wadia is £350 but as WHF said in their review:

While it works as a conventional dock, the 170 iTransport has a claim
to fame: it's the first dock to gain access the iPod's digital data
stream - so the internal DAC and audio stages can be bypassed for
something more exotic.

You'll need an outboard
digital-to-analogue converter - or one of the company's costly CD
players, which have digital inputs - and, in theory, you have a top
class audiophile sound. Except you don't. Even using an iPod with WAV
and Apple lossless files, the results aren't up to that of an
equivalently priced CD player.

So you need a DAC as well, ok really you do with Sonos as well but I guarantee the Sonos will sound better with the same DAC.

Regarding setup, here's the wadia setup:

Step 1: Plug in.

Step 2: Enjoy.

Hard to beat that.

True but it's not that much more to set up Sonos, it took me longer to get everything out of the boxes than it did to get it plugged in and working.

The iPOD is ubiquitous. You may not have one, most music listeners do.

Not convinced about most but I do know there are plenty of people who don't want to be tied to iTunes.

5 years from now, iPODs will still be everywhere. Sonos will likely be either very different that it is now or in the dust bin of history along with 50 other no longer produced music servers.

There's absolutely no justification or evidence to support that comment at all I'm afraid. I'd argue it's more likely that a high-end hi-fi company like Wadia is more likely to go bust in these times but I'd be basing that on just as little evidence as you're basing your comments.

But, I agree that Sonos is a good product. I prefer simple elegant solutions. The wadia is simple.

Sorry, but it really doesn't get much simpler than Sonos, read any review of it, it's the one comment that comes up over and over again. I can prove it's simple, my girlfriend can use it, and she's the biggest technophobe you've ever met, so it must be simple!

At the end of the day the two products are basically doing different things, but to write off all music streamers is just groundless nonsense, I apologise for having to say that, but it is.

 

[Anonymous]

Totally concur,

Also the Squeezebox which is an excellent product, especially when played digitally out into a dac, and your not relying on the ipods limited capacity...............

 

[Anonymous]

I know it was rhetorical but in my opinion the best product of 2008 is the Sooloos. It's hideously expensive but innovative, it's grandkids coming to a middle England home near you soon.

 

[John Duncan]

I voted for the Beresford if I remember. Bloody PS3 won it, of course........

 

[idc]

Jaxwired, your comments about the furture proofness of ipods does not to me seem correct. Firstly, the What hifi review of the dock states in disadvantages that older ipods do not have the same functionality and secondly apple changed the design of the port on the ipod a while back which meant that it did not fit some connectors, see a past thread on the RA GQ-24. You cannot guarantee ipods will remain exactly the same as they are now. What is to stop Apple producing an ipod with no DAC that is specifically for connecting into an external DAC? However, a port that bypasses the ipod's DAC means better flexibility and improved sound. But I will wait until it all gets cheaper as competition increases.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the Wadia dock and Sonos solutions are going to meet different needs.

Wadia: I seriously considered this being a Wadia fan and owner (861).
Advantage: all music in one place, sourced digitally, on a fairly cheap player that can also be used out of the house eg train.
Disadvantage: need a DAC, music is compressed or takes up alot of space compared to what's available (120GB), music available only in one place. Of course having an 861, I can plug the dock stright into the CD player which has digital I/O and pre amp.

Sonos: I was shown this setup by a friend who has just bought one. I was very impressed especially with the wireless capability.
Advanage: complete home "hifi" solution, multiple zones/system, just add speakers and/or connect to existing hifi, use online resources (radio, Napster etc), interface is great...wonder when the touch screen version will come out!
Disadvantage: needs a NAS box or similar and rip all your CDs to it (OK have to rip CDs with the iPod too), more expensive.

Each to his own. I don't have either solution (need a job first!) but will probably go with the Sonos as its a more complete solution, but the Wadia dock is cheaper and is great if you listen to music on a main hifi and on the move.

 

[The_Lhc]

Dr Lodge:
Sonos: I was shown this setup by a friend who has just bought one. I was very impressed especially with the wireless capability.
Advanage: complete home "hifi" solution, multiple zones/system, just add speakers and/or connect to existing hifi, use online resources (radio, Napster etc), interface is great...wonder when the touch screen version will come out!

Yes, you and everybody else that's bought one! I think that's why Sonos created the iPod Touch/iPhone software that allows you to use one of those as a controller (with certain provisos), but that's the main area they really could do with updating.

Disadvantage: needs a NAS box or similar and rip all your CDs to it

Hmm, that's not strictly true, if you have a PC that'll do the job, that's what I use, although I am considering a NAS just so I don't need to have the PC on all the time. Obviously if you're the type that has the PC on all the time anyway that isn't an issue. You don't need the PC or NAS on to listen to internet streaming guff (technical term...) incidentally.

(OK have to rip CDs with the iPod too), more expensive.

Yeah, but as you said it's doing a different job and the bundle gives you two rooms, if you wanted to do that with the Wadia dock you'd need two of them and that would bring you up to the same price as the Sonos bundle anyway.

 

[jaxwired]

idc:

Jaxwired, your comments about the furture proofness of ipods does not to me seem correct. Firstly, the What hifi review of the dock states in disadvantages that older ipods do not have the same functionality and secondly apple changed the design of the port on the ipod a while back which meant that it did not fit some connectors, see a past thread on the RA GQ-24. You cannot guarantee ipods will remain exactly the same as they are now. What is to stop Apple producing an ipod with no DAC that is specifically for connecting into an external DAC? However, a port that bypasses the ipod's DAC means better flexibility and improved sound. But I will wait until it all gets cheaper as competition increases.

My point is that the iPod is the cheapest piece of this system. In fact I consider them disposable. I plan to buy one every 2 or 3 years anyway. The other pieces of this solution are unlikely to be affected by short term technology changes. 5 years from now, my music will still be ripped in a lossless format on my PC. I will still be running the latest iTunes. I will own the latest iPod and I will dock it in my wadia. DACs aren't changing either.

There is no question that this solution is much more technology stable than any music streamer. Music streamers are all proprietary technology. There are many companies all doing their own thing. Also, they are smaller companies which are more vulnerable. Apple owns the market and they are giants.

But I really didn't mean to start a debat on iPod VS streamers anyway. I'll concede that streamers can provide great service. This really is an apple / orange comparison. Streamers don't fit my needs and I always wanted to use my iPod as a music source in my hi fi but was not happy with the quality. Wadia has solved that problem for me and I think it's a great product. Allowing CD quality playback from my iPod is a great advancement.

I also think that we are likely to see more similar offerings soon.

 

[John Duncan]

jaxwired:I also think that we are likely to see more similar offerings soon.

Oh there already are, at cheaper and way more expensive than the Wadia. But I counsel caution - as a poster said earlier, Apple have already changed the dock connecter spec a few times, so don't expect any ipod you buy in the future to be compatible with the iTransport. So maybe you need to start considering that disposable too....

 

[The_Lhc]

jaxwired:idc:
Jaxwired, your comments about the furture proofness of ipods does not to me seem correct. Firstly, the What hifi review of the dock states in disadvantages that older ipods do not have the same functionality and secondly apple changed the design of the port on the ipod a while back which meant that it did not fit some connectors, see a past thread on the RA GQ-24. You cannot guarantee ipods will remain exactly the same as they are now. What is to stop Apple producing an ipod with no DAC that is specifically for connecting into an external DAC? However, a port that bypasses the ipod's DAC means better flexibility and improved sound. But I will wait until it all gets cheaper asÿcompetition increases.

My point is that the iPod is the cheapest piece of this system. In fact I consider them disposable. I plan to buy one every 2 or 3 years anyway.ÿ The other pieces of this solution are unlikely to be affected by short term technology changes.ÿ 5 years from now, my music will still be ripped in a lossless format on my PC.ÿ I will still be running the latest iTunes.ÿ I will own the latest iPod and I will dock it in my wadia.

Unfortunately you CAN'T guarantee that last point.ÿ

There is no question that this solution is much more technology stable than any music streamer.ÿ Music streamers are all proprietary technology.

Internally perhaps, but look at it this way, going back to the Sonos system again, it plays MANY more formats than the iPod does, notably open formats like FLAC, which Apple don't support, it's connected using Ethernet, again an open technology, the fact that the internals are proprietary to Sonos is neither here nor there (and in fact I don't think it is anyway, AIUI most of the internals are off the shelf components anyway), it's connected to the PC using standard networking, it's connected to my amp using standard digital optical connections, to all intents and purposes it supports every standard you'd want.

There are many companies all doing their own thing.ÿÿAlso, they are smaller companiesÿwhich are more vulnerable.ÿ Apple owns the market and they are giants.

There are no guarantees in business, for ANY company, regardless of their size. Besides, Wadia aren't giants.ÿ

But I really didn't mean to start a debat on iPod VS streamers anyway.ÿ I'll concede that streamers can provide great service.ÿ This really is an apple / orange comparison.ÿ Streamers don't fit my needs and I always wanted to use my iPod as a music source in my hi fi but was not happy with the quality.ÿ Wadia has solved that problem for me and I think it's a great product.ÿ Allowing CD quality playback from my iPod is a great advancement.

Well that's all you had to say! I can't disagree with anything in that paragraph, you've found the product for you, happy listening!ÿ

 

[cse]

Actually, most music listerners still don't own an ipod. Still very much a young persons thing I'm afraid.

 

[manicm]

cse:Actually, most music listerners still don't own an ipod. Still very much a young persons thing I'm afraid.

Oooh that's a big statement there...

But anyway back on topic I think for the cost of an iPod + Wadia + DAC one could get a DAC + Storage at a lesser cost and with better sound quality - from the reviews I've read it's *not quite there* yet. In fact if you want to go the iPod Krell's solutions should sound better.

I think my next setup would be cheap as chips Netbook (dedicated to hifi duty only) + DAC + storage.

 

[jaxwired]

manicm:

cse:Actually, most music listerners still don't own an ipod. Still very much a young persons thing I'm afraid.

Oooh that's a big statement there...

But anyway back on topic I think for the cost of an iPod + Wadia + DAC one could get a DAC + Storage at a lesser cost and with better sound quality - from the reviews I've read it's *not quite there* yet. In fact if you want to go the iPod Krell's solutions should sound better.

I think my next setup would be cheap as chips Netbook (dedicated to hifi duty only) + DAC + storage.

Gotta object to this. The Krell is over price and inferior to the Wadia simply because it uses the analog signal from the iPOD. The signal is corrupt before the Krell ever gets it regardless of the magic the Krell might employ.

The wadia sends a digital stream to your selected DAC or CDP. It should be indistinquisable from CD sound in a CDP with digial inputs. What's left to perfect?

 

[Anonymous]

Original poster,

How is streaming tailored to compressed music any more or less than an iPod?

I'm sure the majority of people with music on their computer are using MP3 or AAC but probably don't know what a codec is.

I love that the Wadia dock allows a digital out from the iPod but what if Apple change their future design in a way that renders the Wadia obsolete?

Also, can you see an iPod screen from your sofa to vavigate effectively? No.

 

[cse]

I reiterate what I said earlier. Actually, most music listerners do not own an ipod. In fact most people listen to music on the radio and in their cars. Next most popular group, listen at home conventionally. Finally, a smaller, but ever increasing group, listen via some ipod/laptop/computer/internet source. I am of course taking the population as a whole and not just the What-Hifi forum. Recently, I canvassed a group of 14 professional people at a social gathering in a pub. Age range 32-63, men and women. Not any of them owned an ipod, although all of their children did. All, however professed to still enjoy music. Just because something is contemporary does not mean that it has sole claim on all prevailing wisdom. Remember, it is rare for people to gossip about the wisdom of others!

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but that's just not true. Just have a look around the streets, at the joggers, cyclists, dog-walkers, commuters etc. Not everyone travels by car.

Also, given the tiny size of your sample group and your comments about their children, then 100% of families taken as a unit own at least one ipod. I'd say that's good coverage.

 

[manicm]

jaxwired:manicm:

cse:Actually, most music listerners still don't own an ipod. Still very much a young persons thing I'm afraid.

Oooh that's a big statement there...

But anyway back on topic I think for the cost of an iPod + Wadia + DAC one could get a DAC + Storage at a lesser cost and with better sound quality - from the reviews I've read it's *not quite there* yet. In fact if you want to go the iPod Krell's solutions should sound better.

I think my next setup would be cheap as chips Netbook (dedicated to hifi duty only) + DAC + storage.

Gotta object to this. The Krell is over price and inferior to the Wadia simply because it uses the analog signal from the iPOD. The signal is corrupt before the Krell ever gets it regardless of the magic the Krell might employ.

The wadia sends a digital stream to your selected DAC or CDP. It should be indistinquisable from CD sound in a CDP with digial inputs. What's left to perfect?

The Krell also has a custom interface to the iPod, digital or not, but if you've read any of the reviews the Kid beats the Wadia 170i hands down - yes the Wadia is cheaper but I'm talking purely sound.

Also Krell take their iPod interfaces very seriously indeed as included in their new S300i integrated amplifier.

The Wadia 170i has got mixed reviews in ultimate sound quality terms. And for the price of the 170i I think the PC route is better and more flexible, esp. since Netbooks are coming down in price. I've seen an HP colour netbook in my country for the equivalent of 333 quid - that would be perfect for a PC based hifi, and teamed with a quality DAC I fail to see how the 170i would beat it in sound.

Further, Wadia curiously recommend ripping WAVs rather than ALAC for best results - this could be down to a number of reasons but I wouldn't know where to start and Wadia offer no official reason either. Lastly, I am not being critical as such of the 170i as I was tempted to get one myself. It just does not seem cost effective to me as for little more than the price of 170i + iPod Classic you can get a DAC + storage.

 

[jaxwired]

manicm:[

The Wadia 170i has got mixed reviews in ultimate sound quality terms. And for the price of the 170i I think the PC route is better and more flexible, esp. since Netbooks are coming down in price. I've seen an HP colour netbook in my country for the equivalent of 333 quid - that would be perfect for a PC based hifi, and teamed with a quality DAC I fail to see how the 170i would beat it in sound.

Further, Wadia curiously recommend ripping WAVs rather than ALAC for best results - this could be down to a number of reasons but I wouldn't know where to start and Wadia offer no official reason either. Lastly, I am not being critical as such of the 170i as I was tempted to get one myself. It just does not seem cost effective to me as for little more than the price of 170i + iPod Classic you can get a DAC + storage.

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the technology. The Wadia does not sound good or bad. It has no impact on the analog signal whatsoever. It sends a purely digital stream to an external DAC. Digital streams are a series of 1's and 0's. There is no room for variance. The values are either correct or incorrect and I can assure you that the Wadia can do the very simple job of bit perfect digital transfer to your external DAC or CDP. Once the signal hits your CDP's DAC it is identical to the stream of digital information that would come from a spinning compact disc within the CDP. There is no room for improvement. Only the quality of your DAC or CDP will impact the sound quality.

The KRELL which costs 5 times what the Wadia costs takes the poor analog signal that comes out of the iPODS DAC and intenal analog circuits. I don't know what it does with the signal at that point, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. No matter how good the Krell dock is, you cannot get around the fact that it is being fed a low fi signal from a cheap iPOD DAC. The Wadia is clearly superior AND cheaper. No contest.