IMO, Best product of 2008

[manicm]

jaxwired:manicm:[

The Wadia 170i has got mixed reviews in ultimate sound quality terms. And for the price of the 170i I think the PC route is better and more flexible, esp. since Netbooks are coming down in price. I've seen an HP colour netbook in my country for the equivalent of 333 quid - that would be perfect for a PC based hifi, and teamed with a quality DAC I fail to see how the 170i would beat it in sound.

Further, Wadia curiously recommend ripping WAVs rather than ALAC for best results - this could be down to a number of reasons but I wouldn't know where to start and Wadia offer no official reason either. Lastly, I am not being critical as such of the 170i as I was tempted to get one myself. It just does not seem cost effective to me as for little more than the price of 170i + iPod Classic you can get a DAC + storage.

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the technology. The Wadia does not sound good or bad. It has no impact on the analog signal whatsoever. It sends a purely digital stream to an external DAC. Digital streams are a series of 1's and 0's. There is no room for variance. The values are either correct or incorrect and I can assure you that the Wadia can do the very simple job of bit perfect digital transfer to your external DAC or CDP. Once the signal hits your CDP's DAC it is identical to the stream of digital information that would come from a spinning compact disc within the CDP. There is no room for improvement. Only the quality of your DAC or CDP will impact the sound quality.

The KRELL which costs 5 times what the Wadia costs takes the poor analog signal that comes out of the iPODS DAC and intenal analog circuits. I don't know what it does with the signal at that point, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. No matter how good the Krell dock is, you cannot get around the fact that it is being fed a low fi signal from a cheap iPOD DAC. The Wadia is clearly superior AND cheaper. No contest.

I was not questioning whether the Wadia sounded good or bad, but formed my opinions from all reviews I've read, and my own logic from a price perspective. The Wadia is 'superior'? According to who? You? Have you auditioned both? Have you read any of the Krell reviews? If so you'd have to eat your words mate.

You're getting bogged down in the more esoteric technical details of the iPod interfaces from the two companies, but the digital/analogue argument does not convey how seriously Krell are taking the iPod.

From all the reviews I've read the Wadia only comes to life i.e. really compares to CD, if coupled with high-end DACs - in my mind that excludes the DACMagic and Beresfords. Anything above the former is a huge jump in price as far as I know - so if you're serious about the iPod then you're shelling out 1k (170i + DAC) - not so cheap now is it?

I want to repeat, I'm not being critical of the Wadia but just stating others' reviews and opinions.

 

[cse]

Tarquinh.. That still doesn't make it most. Most cyclists I see are not wired to ipods!! Most commuters still read the newspaper. Most dog walkers are solitary. Digital listening may be on the increase, but it is unlikely if it will ever be the majority who utilise it. Large parts of the country still do not have Dab radio, a mobile phone signal, speedy broadband or indeed gas mains!! All of this is largely determined by economic factors on behalf of those that choose not to provide the service. At any one given time the population of a country consists of many people of varied ages and experiences. All you are doing is expressing what you want, not what the majority of people necessary think or feel.

 

[manicm]

cse - point taken - but I'm willing to bet you top dollar there are a lot more audiophiles with iPods than one would care to imagine.

And with decent buds they are an enjoyable, credible audio experience indeed.

 

[idc]

Cse, I am an older ipod user who has taken the step of ditching a traditional hifi set up and going all ipod. It is a very simple set up that can be put together very cheaply. It sounds just as good as my previous hifi setups, with the exception of the last one, but I have not started to upgrade it yet, so lots of room for improvement. Number one being the totally free re-importing of my CDs losslessly. What you have been saying makes me feel like a trail blazing youngster and I thankyou for that. By your own small survey ipod (MP3) is the future and hifi will be based around PCs as the main source (using CDs and downloads) and speaker docks.

Jaxwired, you repeatedly state that an advantage of the Wadia is that it bypasses the ipod DAC. But how bad is the ipod DAC? Loads of companies, including some very audiophile high end ones like Krell do not see the need to bypass the DAC. Strikes me it is probably pretty good then.

 

[jaxwired]

idc:

Jaxwired, you repeatedly state that an advantage of the Wadia is that it bypasses the ipod DAC. But how bad is the ipod DAC? Loads of companies, including some very audiophile high end ones like Krell do not see the need to bypass the DAC. Strikes me it is probably pretty good then.

Well, that of course, is a matter of opinion. But when you factor in the cost of the rest of the iPod and what they are charging for the package, they cannot be spending much on the DAC or analog electronics. I can tell you that I have done side by side A/B comparisons of iPod playing lossless music in a tranditional iPod dock versus a CD player playing the same music and the difference is not subtle. I did not do it blind but I'd be very surprised if I could not ID the iPOD with great accuracy in a blind listening test using a standard analog dock.

All I can tell you is that I tried it, and it did not sound even close to acceptable to me. If you use that type of setup, you are wasting your money on high quality amp and speakers. Just my not so humble opinion.

The digital signal from the Wadia allows for pristine playback. Why not use it now that it's available?

I think we will see more docks like this soon and cheaper options as well...

 

[Anonymous]

You do realise you're arguing about an iPod. I don't like iPods. Some people do. Some even keep the cr***y white buds. The iPod is something of a good thing, though how much of a good thing I can't tell.

 

[idc]

jaxwired:idc:

Jaxwired, you repeatedly state that an advantage of the Wadia is that it bypasses the ipod DAC. But how bad is the ipod DAC? Loads of companies, including some very audiophile high end ones like Krell do not see the need to bypass the DAC. Strikes me it is probably pretty good then.

Well, that of course, is a matter of opinion. But when you factor in the cost of the rest of the iPod and what they are charging for the package, they cannot be spending much on the DAC or analog electronics. I can tell you that I have done side by side A/B comparisons of iPod playing lossless music in a tranditional iPod dock versus a CD player playing the same music and the difference is not subtle. I did not do it blind but I'd be very surprised if I could not ID the iPOD with great accuracy in a blind listening test using a standard analog dock.

All I can tell you is that I tried it, and it did not sound even close to acceptable to me. If you use that type of setup, you are wasting your money on high quality amp and speakers. Just my not so humble opinion.

The digital signal from the Wadia allows for pristine playback. Why not use it now that it's available?

I think we will see more docks like this soon and cheaper options as well...

I do not think that my comments about the ipod DAC is a matter of opinion, I was basing my question on the fact that many companies, including high end ones choose not to bypass the ipod dock. That is a matter of fact. Goodness knows what Apple spent developing the DAC for the ipod, potentially it was far more than many hifi companies spend on DACs for their CD players due to expected and achieved sales by Apple over many if not most hifi companies.

Your blind test proves that you prefer the sound of the CD player over the sound of an ipod and a traditional dock. I use my ipod with a cable that bypasses the volume and goes straight to the DAC, plugged into the back of my amp and it sounds just as good through headphones as my CD player did. The sound is different, it is more lively than the CD player, but I like that. I would not use an ipod as a source for high quality amps and speakers, I would use my PC via a DAC, but I do not have the finances for that. Or to buy the Wadia. But I will keep an open mind and in the future, as I said before, as such docks get cheaper I will look at one to replace my present cable.

 

[jaxwired]

idc:

I do not think that my comments about the ipod DAC is a matter of opinion, I was basing my question on the fact that many companies, including high end ones choose not to bypass the ipod dock. That is a matter of fact. Goodness knows what Apple spent developing the DAC for the ipod, potentially it was far more than many hifi companies spend on DACs for their CD players due to expected and achieved sales by Apple over many if not most hifi companies.

The companies that your talking about did not choose to use the analog signal from the iPOD DAC. They had no choice since the iPOD digital interface is licensed by Apple and is proprietary. They could not tap into the digial signal even if they wanted to. They were not licensed to do so. Wadia is the first company licensed by Apple to intereface in this way. The Hi End companies you speak of were making the most of a bad interface, trying to turn the mediocre analog signal into something great.

Companies like Krell see the writing on the wall, the next generation listens to MP3 players, be it iPod or not. There is big, big money catering to this active and growing market segment. Krell and many others want a piece of that pie.

Regarding what Apple spent on their DAC, they spent zero as they did not develop it. DACs are created by chip manufacturers like Texas Instruments, Wolfson Electronics and others. Apple does not make signal processing chips. Apple just buys an off the shelf DAC chip. But there is much more that goes into a quality CD player than just a DAC. Power supply, op amps, circuit layout, and more create quality sound. You just don't get all that with an iPOD. Apple did spend millions developing the iPOD and it's awesome, but the money was spend on the great interface and making the iPOD flashy and thin. The money was spent to make it marketable, not to make it sound the best (although it does sound good by MP3 player standards).

But it's really pointless to debate. I prefer not to use the analog iPOD signal. It does not sound good enough to me to use as a source for my Hi Fi. I think most so called audiophiles agree with this, but it is certainly a matter of opinion.

 

[idc]

Thanks for the response Jaxwired, I did not know about the Wadia being licensed or that Apple bought rather than developed it's DACs.

I don't think it is pointless to debate, I think that this debate, and many others are the whole point of the forum. I am an audiophile who has an ipod based system. I would happily have your comments on http://whathifi.com/forums/t/199247.aspx my set up, via the link.

idc

 

[jaxwired]

idc:

Thanks for the response Jaxwired, I did not know about the Wadia being licensed or that Apple bought rather than developed it's DACs.

I don't think it is pointless to debate, I think that this debate, and many others are the whole point of the forum. I am an audiophile who has an ipod based system. I would happily have your comments on http://whathifi.com/forums/t/199247.aspx my set up, via the link.

What a great response. You are a good man. Debating can often be pointless because people like you that will actually consider opposing views are rare.

I will take a look at your system and tell you what I think....but I'm no expert, just passionate about this Wadia topic...

 

[manicm]

idc - On the other hand I can confirm that ultimately Apple is only after the bottom line:

There was a time where reviews bore it out and Apple themselves admitted that the original Shuffle had the best sound quality of the whole damn lot - and that was down to its superior DAC.

And I, and not alone in this, can categorically state that my old iPod Mini sounded better than my 3rd gen iPod Nano - again due to Apple changing DACs - probably more 'cost effective' ones.

Personally I find it distasteful on Apple's part to say the least, and unfortunately that seriously damages its credentials in a hifi context, no matter how good third party peripherals may be.

Jaxwired - again I want to repeat, unless you've heard it and convince us otherwise, in all the 170i reviews I've read they've tested it with DACs way more expensive than DACMagics and Beresfords - so that means you're spending about 1k if you're serious. WHF's review also mentions 'high-end' DAC - which to mind excludes the above two.

And 1k should give one's ears a lot to vibrate on...