Honestly, do you think Interconnects and Cables make a difference?

[MattSPL]

Ollie.:MattSPL:Ollie.:

Craig M.:maybe try through some more revealing kit? i thought the same as you until recently, maybe you need to grow up and stop posting unnecessarily aggressive posts.

What's aggressive about my posts? Maybe you need to grow up and stop believing all the hype.

Telling people to grow up and stop buyin power cables and challenging them to a duel is agressive.

You don't think the companies marketing strategies are aggressive? Telling people to buy something that we all know makes absolutely no difference whatsoever?

Yes i believe marketing and media are the devil, thats why i dont watch much tv. But nobody is telling me to buy anything. I decide id like to improve the sound of my system so i change something to do that. Sometimes its a cable, sometimes its the speakers or cd player.

The better the cable, the less restriction and distortion it applys to the system. So it essentially makes the system sound as good as is possible and doesn't add a sound of its own

 

[Anonymous]

What I'm saying is that it has been proven over and over again that there is no difference in ABX testing and in electrical measurements. I have no dispute with anyone that buys such cables, I would myself if I had the kit and cash to do so because if you can afford silly money kit, then you can definitely afford silly money cables so why not? They'll likely be of a very high manufacturing quality and last a lifetime. Like I said, to each his own.

 

[Anonymous]

Speaker cable if you are comparing copper to other metals like silver, and if you are comparing different gauges of speaker cable particularly with long cable runs, should have a perceivable difference. If you are comparing different brands of speaker cable using the same gauge of copper cable, then I would not expect audible differences.

Analogue line level audio inter connectors. RF noise can enter at line level inter connectors and if it does may effect sound quality. Some are purposefully designed to prevent ground noise or ground loops from traveling along the cable, so if they are problems they would be eliminated. In-line audio attenuation can effect sound quality, if the amp is for lack of understanding I will call it clipping at the input, hence dvd players with the option of audio attenuation and hifi in-line attenuators. Also any difference in current are going to then be amplified, so I do not see why there could not be a slight difference in volume between cables. So since a inter connector can have different levels shielding, some hi-end inter connectors are designed to act as in-line attenuators, and different inter connectors have slightly different electrical properties. Yes with inter connectors in some situations, although unlikely in most situations. With a level matched unclipping/distorting double blind test I do not think you would have any difference.

With digital optical very easy for there to be dust/scratches at the connector, or damage or too tight a bend in the cable. The amplifier will have interpolative error correction, so problem/faulty cables could sound different. Digital coaxial oddly on my setup benefited for audio attenuation, so if an inter connector had a unusually high attenuation and there was otherwise a problem, could sound different. No existing problem, in a controlled double blind test, I again do not think you would have any difference.

Power cords in a unusual environment with lots of RF interference, maybe due to better shielding. In normal situations, shield return current behavior and ground loop induced magnetic coupling on equipment could come into play depending on the components internal design. So maybe possible with power cords although unlikely and even more unlikely to be audible but not completely theoretically impossible.

Hdmi cables, yes it is well known that sometimes particularly with long cable runs, one cable will not work due to handshake issues or will work with sparkles, etc... While another cable will work with that equipment, and the same cable that had problems will work perfectly with different components. Some components post hdmi 1.3 have pre-emphasis of the signal and some do not and those pre hdmi 1.3 were forbidden to overshoot. On the receiving end some have better cable equalization circuits than others so are more adept at locking on to and holding the signal being received. While apparently some cable manufactures when asked to fax there hdmi standards compliance certification, suddenly stop wanting to sell the wholesaler/retail chain their cables. As for subtle differences, since according to the hdmi spec the audio side at the receiver/amp can depending on implementation use interpolated error correction when hdmi encoded error correction fails, primarily to prevent the still present errors from causing loud jumps and noise possibly damaging audio components or frightening the wits out of the listener, it is possible. For video since nothing is using interpolated error correction, so I do not think subtle differences are possible. So yes and probably going to be obvious, possible but very unlikely subtle audio differences.

 

[MattSPL]

qube2:What I'm saying is that it has been proven over and over again that there is no difference in ABX testing and in electrical measurements. I have no dispute with anyone that buys such cables, I would myself if I had the kit and cash to do so because if you can afford silly money kit, then you can definitely afford silly money cables so why not? They'll likely be of a very high manufacturing quality and last a lifetime. Like I said, to each his own.

This is where Sonic Flare's motto "Measurements mean jack" comes into play.

But yes, each to their own. No point spending money if you hear no difference. Trust your own judgement and enjoy the music

 

[Craig M.]

not really sure measurements tell us that much, most cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response. they certainly don't all sound the same.

 

[Craig M.]

Ollie.:Craig M.:Ollie.:
igglebert:To be serious for a second Olli, fair play to you. If different cables don't make different noises to you then it makes the hifi hobby easier. Each to their own experiences. My other half couldn't tell the difference between my Monitor Audio RS1s and Spendor SA1s. Everybody has a different ear.

Cheers Iggy. I respect your view too..My sister has the MA RS1's and they're unreal..

but iggys view is that they can make a difference, not the most consistent attacker of others opinions i've ever seen...

I can still respect another person's views without agreeing with them..

ahhh, so you express respect by telling people they should grow up. brilliant.

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:Ollie.:Craig M.:Ollie.:
igglebert:To be serious for a second Olli, fair play to you. If different cables don't make different noises to you then it makes the hifi hobby easier. Each to their own experiences. My other half couldn't tell the difference between my Monitor Audio RS1s and Spendor SA1s. Everybody has a different ear.

Cheers Iggy. I respect your view too..My sister has the MA RS1's and they're unreal..

but iggys view is that they can make a difference, not the most consistent attacker of others opinions i've ever seen...

I can still respect another person's views without agreeing with them..

ahhh, so you express respect by telling people they should grow up. brilliant.

No problem if you want to waste your money on cables. Any logical thinking person knows it's a con job..

 

[Anonymous]

EDITED BY MODS - House Rules

 

[SHAXOS]

A lot of people are up in arms about the OPs statement that cables make no difference. Instead of throwing a hissy fit why not take him up on the blind test offer? In fact why not try it yourself? Could be interesting....

 

[Anonymous]

ahhh, so you express respect by telling people they should grow up. brilliant.

Sorry I offended you igglebert. If you want to continue buying expensive cables, then go ahead. I'll let you in a little secret though - it makes no difference. Trust me..

 

[Anonymous]

SHAXOS:A lot of people are up in arms about the OPs statement that cables make no difference. Instead of throwing a hissy fit why not take him up on the blind test offer? In fact why not try it yourself? Could be interesting....

No offers yet SHAXOS.

 

[Frank Harvey]

If A/B/X testing is the be all and end all, has anyone here been part of an official, published, A/B/X cable test? Thought not....

I place this sort of opinion in the same category as those of the opinion that all amplifiers sound the same - rubbish. I've heard differences in cables, and differences in amplifiers. Not all granted, but I have heard differences.

If I can choose the cables to test on the equipment of my choosing, I'd happily do it. Cyrus solid core, QED Silver Aniversary XT, Chord Silver Screen and Chord Odyssey.

 

[Craig M.]

SHAXOS:A lot of people are up in arms about the OPs statement that cables make no difference. Instead of throwing a hissy fit why not take him up on the blind test offer? In fact why not try it yourself? Could be interesting....

i can't speak for others, but i was more annoyed with the way he expressed his opinion, not so much the content of it.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
If A/B/X testing is the be all and end all, has anyone here been part of an official, published, A/B/X cable test? Thought not....

I place this sort of opinion in the same category as those of the opinion that all amplifiers sound the same - rubbish. I've heard differences in cables, and differences in amplifiers. Not all granted, but I have heard differences.

If I can choose the cables to test on the equipment of my choosing, I'd happily do it. Cyrus solid core, QED Silver Aniversary XT, Chord Silver Screen and Chord Odyssey.

No problem. Any cable of your choosing anf you're on.

 

[Craig M.]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
If A/B/X testing is the be all and end all, has anyone here been part of an official, published, A/B/X cable test? Thought not....

I place this sort of opinion in the same category as those of the opinion that all amplifiers sound the same - rubbish. I've heard differences in cables, and differences in amplifiers. Not all granted, but I have heard differences.

If I can choose the cables to test on the equipment of my choosing, I'd happily do it. Cyrus solid core, QED Silver Aniversary XT, Chord Silver Screen and Chord Odyssey.

i may be wrong but didn't the mag do a blind cable test with three readers? in blind tests most people can't tell the difference between amps, making expensive things like m.f. amps a waste of money

 

[Frank Harvey]

Not sure, but I'd do any blind test where I get to choose the products and source material.

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:not really sure measurements tell us that much, most cd players have a perfectly flat frequency response. they certainly don't all sound the same.

Try sticking an in-line attenuator between a bright sounding cd player and the amp, and level matching the cd players. I am yet to be convinced that cd players sound intrinsically different, rather than differences just being caused by the output level of the line-outs. If the line output level is too high for the amp it results in bright/harsh treble, and needs in-line attention between cd player and amp to produce warm smooth. Due to the effects of clipping at the input causing distortion in the treble or possibly something to do with effecting the amps slew rate resulting in bloated bass and distortion in the treble. Different line level output levels also because they are then amplified result in different audio volume levels, higher volume is perceived as being more revealing than lower volume. This is due to the listeners relative sensitivity to different frequencies of sound getting smaller at higher volume levels. So higher volume makes the listener perceive more frequencies as being more equal in loudness and so easier to perceive, making it sound more revealing. Another cause of cd players sounding different could be interpolative error correction if such is used on cd players and their is a problem with the transport/laser tracking. If the aim of cd players is to be faithful to source, why would they intrinsically sound different, if making a cd player that produces a line-output that is faithful to the recording on the cd is so difficult that all cd players sound different the overall premise and design of the format must be seriously flawed.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
Not sure, but I'd do any blind test where I get to choose the products and source material.

I'd still challenge anyone to a blind test on cables and interconnects. It's all a load of bull...

 

[SHAXOS]

Look guys this is a ridiculous thread, it offers nothing constructive at all. For what its worth i agree that cables dont make that much difference. But there is absolutely no point at all in trying to argue or convince anyone to the contrary. Just state your opinion on the matter and move on. Its like arguing for the existence of God or the medical benifits of homeopathy. Believers "believe" non believers want "proof". Its just a load of nonsense that will go around in circles. So sod this and listen to hi fi like i am., Peace.

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi: I place this sort of opinion in the same category as those of the opinion that all amplifiers sound the same - rubbish. I've heard differences in cables, and differences in amplifiers. Not all granted, but I have heard differences.

Amplifier line input sensitivity seems to vary, so as I mention in my earlier post in this thread about cd players I think that can result in amps sounding different with different cd players due to possibly causing clipping or somehow effecting the slew rate of the amp due to the input level. Amplifier specs about watts output seem to be measured/calculated differently by different manufactures. Since they are measured against a set load of 8ohm or 4ohm they may also not be very indicative of performance under a speakers loads. Amplifier manufactures unfortunately seem to like to quote high watts as a selling feature while speaker specs quote their suitability to amps by using a general ohm rating as a guide and like to claim suitability with a wide variety of amps. In reality speakers present a complex load to the amplifier, and impedance/load varies greatly with frequency. This leads to a lot more clipping than I would have suspected. Which is why some people recommend using speakers with a watt ratting two thirds or half or less of what the amplifier claims to be capable of. Amplifier specs usually omit slew rate which I think is also effected by the impedance load presented by the speakers. If slew rate limited, then the amp is not going to be able to accurately track the input, it will fail to keep up, and will also be bandwidth limited, resulting in sine waves becoming triangular resulting in odd order harmonic distortion. So I think some amps are ill suited to some cd players and some speakers. In double blind tests cd-amp-speaker are checked to make sure they are not distorting, So I do not find it surprising they hear no differences as I suspect most differences are due to distortion caused by poorly matched components caused by lack of details or misleading details in manufactures specs.

I think everyone can agree valve amps obviously sound different and are less true to source, but often preferred for their sound quality. I also think everyone agrees that while monitors are design for audio fidelity, to be true to source, speakers especially floor standing speakers do sound different from one another. They often colour the music, in away listeners find pleasing. Lastly rooms sound different unless they are acoustically dead and studio recorded music sounds bad played back in an acoustically dead room. The listening room needs to add life to the music, with reverberation, etc... I think at least everyone can agree speaker choice and placement and room acoustics are key to getting a sound quality you like.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm well aware of the effects of rooms, different types of speakers (and the pros and cons of both types), and source component output levels and their effect

 

[Anonymous]

FrankHarveyHiFi: I'm well aware of the effects of rooms, different types of speakers (and the pros and cons of both types), and source component output levels and their effect

Do you believe the distortion effects I mentioned are the main causes of amplifiers sounding different, or are you aware of other causes I am ignorant off. I am currently reading about slew rates and would be interested in reading about any other possible causes of amps sounding different. Some people claim different manufactures amps are designed to sound different as a kind of house sound. I currently do not believe this, are you aware of any evidence this is true or is it a fallacy.

Another cause for amps sounding different I could add would be power supply, both in their ability to provide the amplification fast enough and with enough power, which could be the limiting factor in the amps ability, and in how clean the dc power they supply the amp with. If lots of mains pollution/noise was present it is possible that a amp with better power supply components/layout would sound better because it was more successful in removing the noise.

 

[Frank Harvey]

No evidence, but I do believe certain manufacturers 'produce' a certain sound intentionally. I think depending on how certain manufacturers tackle certain aspects of amplifier design does shape how they sound. Obviously this affects mid/higher end amps more so than budget ones, as the budget doesn't really allow for anything other than basic components and processes.

 

[Anonymous]

Two things:

1. Umm, based on your comment being technically correct, it's like saying people who buy expensive watches or cars really need to grow up - because they don't tell the time any better or get you to your destination any earlier. It's not about that. Hi fi's a hobby or passion - and if someone thinks their stuff sounds better with fancy/fat/gold plated cables, why not?

2. Secondly, so you're saying is the interconnects that come in the box will sound exactly the same as fancy ones that you pay heaps for. Right? I've switched between the two and it's made a massive, obvious difference to me (and my ears a slightly shot).

So at what point do you think different components (obviously not the cables to you) make a difference to sound?

 

[stephennic]

Ollie.:FrankHarveyHiFi:

Not sure, but I'd do any blind test where I get to choose the products and source material.

I'd still challenge anyone to a blind test on cables and interconnects. It's all a load of bull...

Hi Ollie,

I didnt use to be a cable believer but now I am. I have done blind listening tests on cables on my system with a few different people (even non hifi people) and they noted clear differences soundwise between cables . If your system is highly resolving or of high quality it easier to pick differences in cables .

Even cheaper hifi equipment I can tell the difference for eg a cambridge 340c amp and cd player when i put QED silver speaker cable on the sound signiture is bighter put the old QED 79 strand on the system is a lot duller sounding and loses some sparkle. The same can happen when trying out other hifi equipment (amps/speakers/cd players etc) etc.

Have a good day.

Cheers,

Steve.