Hear how Mains Conditioning Improves your Hifi

[BigH]

If you open the box of most electronics and most things for that matter how much do the bits cost compared to the price you pay for someone making it for you. This is nothing new TrevC at all in fact it's totally irrelevant.

If you can make your own then you would obviously do it. However everyone has a putchasing choice but if they want it they have to pay for it same as anything else

Actually I would expect a bit more for £1,200. Thats why some of these products are poor value.

 

[ellisdj]

Actually I would expect a bit more for £1,200. Thats why some of these products are poor value.

Well looking inside and seeing the bits would give youi a negative expectation on the performance. Thats perfect for testing it out when you think about it.

Put it in - test it and then see if it warrants the cost.

If you look at the inside of a DCS Pucini U Clock for example - thats £4K roughly its mostly an empty box - how much did those bits cost?

However if it sounds £4k worth of upgrade - thats how it is

 

[RobinKidderminster]

£1200. I would like a little more electrons in the box. My £50 PureAV mains box is heavy, has multi coloured LED's and has lots of electrons in it.

 

[BigH]

Actually I would expect a bit more for £1,200. Thats why some of these products are poor value.

Well looking inside and seeing the bits would give youi a negative expectation on the performance. Thats perfect for testing it out when you think about it.

Put it in - test it and then see if it warrants the cost.

If you look at the inside of a DCS Pucini U Clock for example - thats £4K roughly its mostly an empty box - how much did those bits cost?

However if it sounds £4k worth of upgrade - thats how it is

I think that depends on your system and how much it costs, spending £4k on a £1k system does not sound good to me but £4k in a £100,000 then maybe its ok.

 

[ellisdj]

I think that depends on your system and how much it costs, spending £4k on a £1k system does not sound good to me but £4k in a £100,000 then maybe its ok.

Totally agreed on that.

But there was debate on value - look at the inside of the DCS clock - loads of google internal pictures. its £3,250 not £4k sorry. But there is hardly anything in the box for the money - I think DCS products are supposed to be excellent quality so what are you paying for design expertise or parts?

 

[ellisdj]

so why is that any different and one right and one wrong - I dont see it like that, I see it all as the same.

If I could do it myself it would save me money - but if I cant and I want it I have to pay whats asked. David hinted at production costs a few posts back. I think they are all made in the UK

 

[BigH]

I think that depends on your system and how much it costs, spending £4k on a £1k system does not sound good to me but £4k in a £100,000 then maybe its ok.

Totally agreed on that.

But there was debate on value - look at the inside of the DCS clock - loads of google internal pictures. its £3,250 not £4k sorry. But there is hardly anything in the box for the money - I think DCS products are supposed to be excellent quality so what are you paying for design expertise or parts?

I doubt it, you are paying a lot because not many people buy it, so low economies of scale, components are expensive as bought in small numbers or are bespook and its probably difficult to sell, so marketing and advertising costs. Is it any better than the clocks you can have fitted to your cd player for about £400?

 

[BigH]

so why is that any different and one right and one wrong - I dont see it like that, I see it all as the same.

If I could do it myself it would save me money - but if I cant and I want it I have to pay whats asked. David hinted at production costs a few posts back. I think they are all made in the UK

Its about value for money, you can spend £1,000s on these things and get a small improvement or you can spend on better value for money products that will give you greater improvement in sound quality for far less money. How much have you spent on mains conditioners and cables?

 

[andyjm]

Inside an Isotek Evo 3 Aquarius. How much is it worth? £50?

Ignoring the price, in of itself, it seems an OK design. A bunch of voltage dependent resistors to catch spikes, isolation transformer and then a common mode filter on each of the outputs. What isn't good is the long run of brown cable from the mains input, via an unidentified box (over current protection device?) then on the to circuit board. Same is true of the flying leads to the back panel fuse. These will act as aerials inside the box for RF and will undo much of the good work that the rest of the circuitry is trying to achieve. They should have been kept as short as possible.

Worth noting that you will find most of this circuitry (VDR, isolation transformer) in even the most budget of amplifiers.

 

[TrevC]

Inside an Isotek Evo 3 Aquarius. How much is it worth? £50?

Ignoring the price, in of itself, it seems an OK design. A bunch of voltage dependent resistors to catch spikes, isolation transformer and then a common mode filter on each of the outputs. What isn't good is the long run of brown cable from the mains input, via an unidentified box (over current protection device?) then on the to circuit board. Same is true of the flying leads to the back panel fuse. These will act as aerials inside the box for RF and will undo much of the good work that the rest of the circuitry is trying to achieve. They should have been kept as short as possible.

Worth noting that you will find most of this circuitry (VDR, isolation transformer) in even the most budget of amplifiers.

It looks blingy and is expensive, therefore it must work. That's the Ellis way of thinking.

 

[ellisdj]

It looks blingy and is expensive, therefore it must work. That's the Ellis way of thinking.

Nice Try TrevC

 

[ellisdj]

Its about value for money, you can spend £1,000s on these things and get a small improvement or you can spend on better value for money products that will give you greater improvement in sound quality for far less money. How much have you spent on mains conditioners and cables?

You dont want to know how much I have spent on cables and mains conditoners - thousands and I will be spending more when I can. I have also made a lot myself and its not cheap to make what I consider good quality ones, so money easily burnt.

But Its Not about me and what I have done - why are you directing it at me or even cables - thats not a good one to start on ??

However in my experiences I have changed boxes changed speakers changed lots of stuff and only heard incremental benefits not befitting the cost of the box so just changing boxes doesnt guarantee improvements befitting the cost of the box - laws of diminishing

However I have settled on a system for now and worked on it and worked on it and worked on it and improved the performance far more than I ever did just keep changing boxes. Higher Quality boxes are also very expensive - so its not like its a cheaper path to better sound

 

[BigH]

Its about value for money, you can spend £1,000s on these things and get a small improvement or you can spend on better value for money products that will give you greater improvement in sound quality for far less money. How much have you spent on mains conditioners and cables?

You dont want to know how much I have spent on cables and mains conditoners - thousands and I will be spending more when I can. I have also made a lot myself and its not cheap to make what I consider good quality ones, so money easily burnt.

But Its Not about me and what I have done - why are you directing it at me or even cables - thats not a good one to start on ??

However in my experiences I have changed boxes changed speakers changed lots of stuff and only heard incremental benefits not befitting the cost of the box so just changing boxes doesnt guarantee improvements befitting the cost of the box - laws of diminishing

However I have settled on a system for now and worked on it and worked on it and worked on it and improved the performance far more than I ever did just keep changing boxes. Higher Quality boxes are also very expensive - so its not like its a cheaper path to better sound

Just trying to understand your approach which seems to be at odds with most others, even audiophiles probaably do not spend nearly such a high proportion of their budget on mains conditioners and cables. Many in the music industry do not believe they make a big difference.

 

[ellisdj]

Agreed on that front - however there is a link on Isoteks page to a studio that uses their products so some do. I have seen other studios using other companies products - just like I am sure there are some that use none

I was chatting to a chap who used to work in music production a week ago - not sure to what level and he was saying I would be appauled at what goes on - cables everywhere, no attention to the details that stereotype hifi hobbyists like me do and he said look and at what is still produced in terms of quality

I agreed totally with him - but I also said does that make it right / the best thing to do?

 

[ellisdj]

Where here is a link to a CD or Vinyl produced by a guy who has paid attention to hifi details, high quality cabling, high quality mics etc. I am referring to chasing the dragon

Its a fantastic test CD very hifi in the content but in the main an excellent listen and very high quality

For example there is 2 songs of an identical Cello piece - one recorded indoor and one recorded outdoors - so how the system resolves the different acoustics and generally the size and power of the instrument and resolution of the playing is a great test that can be repeated system to system - or upgrade to upgrade etc.

This content tests how your good your system really is in loads of ways and if it doesnt truly shine playing this content you have a lot of work to do.

 

[Dom]

Hi,

thanks for the link, it sounds great, almost 3d sound stage.

Chasing The Dragon is a reference to opium smoking, however my drug days are over. On the straight and narrow now, and am enjoying it too.

I did buy my self a Mini Volt, clouds of harmless smoke with nicotine, amazing.

 

[ellisdj]

The sound on that cd is so good you can see it let alone hear it. Totally 3D
Cant imagine how good the vinyl is.

It's expensive but worth the investment

 

[TomSawyer]

Worth noting that you will find most of this circuitry (VDR, isolation transformer) in even the most budget of amplifiers.

And that's the crux of the debate for me. The premise behind selling mains conditioners seems to be that a perfect sine wave at the IEC socket will somehow translate into a better sound. But regardless of what appears at the back of the amp, it needs to be transformed and rectified before it's used and any circuit that can reduce natural ripple down to audio-equipment levels will easily cope with emilimintion of any distortion to the original sine wave by external factors.

As ever, happy to be educated otherwise.

 

[ellisdj]

Trying one out or hearing one is the only way - because you will always be argued against the technicals same as everything

However giving one a go or going to a demo where they show you the difference is even better. Then to be honest who gives a stuff what TrevC says - all due repsect that is how I feel.

I have a top quality Bryston Amplifier that should have all the basic circuitry to eliminate noise on the AC Line going by this thread - but powering it off the Isotek G2 Titan it sounds much better than off the wall and thats on a Dedicated spur and Furutech Mains Socket.

I have also demo'd my Titan and my home made mains extension block on my pals hifi system which incorporates one of the best made preamps ever a Kyln something or another and that system sounded like a different system powered from it as opposed to a well made Clearer Audio Power Block.

So there is no changing my mind on this as it stands and I try and get people to ignore TrevC and give the solttions proper consideration - there are loads of options from Isotek and different firms.

Then hopefully people can report back about the good ones they have found so we can all benefit collectivelyfrom the general feedback

But others want to stop this with constant thread Trolling which is madness and gets right on my man boobs

 

[andyjm]

Worth noting that you will find most of this circuitry (VDR, isolation transformer) in even the most budget of amplifiers.

And that's the crux of the debate for me. The premise behind selling mains conditioners seems to be that a perfect sine wave at the IEC socket will somehow translate into a better sound. But regardless of what appears at the back of the amp, it needs to be transformed and rectified before it's used and any circuit that can reduce natural ripple down to audio-equipment levels will easily cope with emilimintion of any distortion to the original sine wave by external factors.

As ever, happy to be educated otherwise.

Tom,

The argument (if there is one) is more about RF noise reduction than nicely shaped sine waves. A DC offset on the mains can cause the main transformer in the amp to saturate and buzz, but in the main (no pun intended) a linear power supply in an amp copes very well with wonky sine waves.

As I have banged on time after time on this forum, there is a very easy way to see if you have mains noise. Select an input on the amp that is connected but can generate a zero signal (a CD player with no CD playing for example). Turn the amp way up, hear snap crackle or pop? You may have mains noise finding its way in to the amp and it may be worth investigating. Sound OK (a shushing sound is thermal noise in the amp's components and is unavoidable), then spend your money on more music.

 

[BigH]

Worth noting that you will find most of this circuitry (VDR, isolation transformer) in even the most budget of amplifiers.

And that's the crux of the debate for me. The premise behind selling mains conditioners seems to be that a perfect sine wave at the IEC socket will somehow translate into a better sound. But regardless of what appears at the back of the amp, it needs to be transformed and rectified before it's used and any circuit that can reduce natural ripple down to audio-equipment levels will easily cope with emilimintion of any distortion to the original sine wave by external factors.

As ever, happy to be educated otherwise.

Tom,

The argument (if there is one) is more about RF noise reduction than nicely shaped sine waves. A DC offset on the mains can cause the main transformer in the amp to saturate and buzz, but in the main (no pun intended) a linear power supply in an amp copes very well with wonky sine waves.

As I have banged on time after time on this forum, there is a very easy way to see if you have mains noise. Select an input on the amp that is connected but can generate a zero signal (a CD player with no CD playing for example). Turn the amp way up, hear snap crackle or pop? You may have mains noise finding its way in to the amp and it may be worth investigating. Sound OK (a shushing sound is thermal noise in the amp's components and is unavoidable), then spend your money on more music.

Can't hear anything on mine with the volume right up.

 

[TomSawyer]

Andy,

I assume you are saying that a DC offset causes RF to be produced within the case rather than ambient RF causes a DC offset in the mains?

edit: just paused the streamer and turned the amp to full volume - no extraneous noise at all.

 

[BigH]

But RF is easy to get rid of? You don't need to spend loads of money on fancy cables.

 

[ellisdj]

Noone mentioned Cables BigH - you are trying to deliberately twist the thread off the positive topic.

And still noone is saying they are going to try one a device out - which is the only test.

Noise is manifested on the signal and generated from loads of places, it clouds actual clarity and organic character of what your listening to - if you think your listening to noise free sound you live in dream land - noone is

 

[pauln]

- if you think your listening to noise free sound you live in dream land -

You'll be bumping into them down the pub then...

btw: http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You're-and-Your