Do you take this Logic, to be your lawful, wedded......

[shooter]

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

Pah, what does he know :rofl:

 

[John Duncan]

Me too but...whatever. Who cares?

Maybe you should ask the OP.

Brilliant!

See, now you *are* being sarcastic.

 

[Exshopguy]

I think people are very logical when it comes to Hi-Fi, I mean even though your mains electricity has travelled miles and miles through bog standard copper wiring to get to your home it's obvious that last meter before it reaches your Hi-Fi is the all-important one. When electricity escapes from your plug socket it's put into a very hostile environment, there are spiders, kids, pets and all sorts of nasties that can upset it, that's why I bought a £500 mains cable to protect it and get the best sound into my hi-fi.

Rather than have a logical debate on this I figured I'd be sarcastic, just in-case that didn't come across. Seems any threads on a debate of this kind are trolled away pretty quickly anyway. Best stick to "What award-winner should I buy, take my money please!" topics if you want real answers. Similar responses came up in the thread about MP3 quality, which seems a pretty logical subject to discuss as it's becoming the most popular listening medium.

Ben.

 

[Alec]

I think people are very logical when it comes to Hi-Fi, I mean even though your mains electricity has travelled miles and miles through bog standard copper wiring to get to your home it's obvious that last meter before it reaches your Hi-Fi is the all-important one. When electricity escapes from your plug socket it's put into a very hostile environment, there are spiders, kids, pets and all sorts of nasties that can upset it, that's why I bought a £500 mains cable to protect it and get the best sound into my hi-fi.

Rather than have a logical debate on this I figured I'd be sarcastic, just in-case that didn't come across. Seems any threads on a debate of this kind are trolled away pretty quickly anyway. Best stick to "What award-winner should I buy, take my money please!" topics if you want real answers. Similar responses came up in the thread about MP3 quality, which seems a pretty logical subject to discuss as it's becoming the most popular listening medium.

Ben.

Oh you, you kidder.

 

[busb]

I think this quote rather sums it up

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

Translation: "If two products measure the same, they MUST sound the same!"

We will be debating the existance or not of Free Will next!

 

[fr0g]

I think this quote rather sums it up

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

Translation: "If two products measure the same, they MUST sound the same!"

We will be debating the existance or not of Free Will next!

If they don't, then they are simply the wrong measurements...

 

[shooter]

I think this quote rather sums it up

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

Translation: "If two products measure the same, they MUST sound the same!"

We will be debating the existance or not of Free Will next!

If they don't, then they are simply the wrong measurements...

Sorry but i dont buy into this at all I'd imagin you could easily have two products from different maufactures that measure identically but sound different. Simply because the way they were designed, power supplies, output stages etc. all influence sound quality.

If i had a set of graphes put in front of me there is no way i could tell how the product sounds or if i should buy it.

 

[Paul.]

 

[Alec]

HA!

 

[busb]

I think this quote rather sums it up

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

Translation: "If two products measure the same, they MUST sound the same!"

We will be debating the existance or not of Free Will next!

If they don't, then they are simply the wrong measurements...

Sorry but i dont buy into this at all I'd imagin you could easily have two products from different maufactures that measure identically but sound different. Simply because the way they were designed, power supplies, output stages etc. all influence sound quality.

If i had a set of graphes put in front of me there is no way i could tell how the product sounds or if i should buy it.

Agreed! I also agree with WHF's philosopy of not bothering with tests results 'cos I don't think they tell us how something will sound. The exception being when comparing digital storage media where I personally have difficulty believing that if the the bits don't get flipped that some other arcane unknown force cannot possibly influence the SQ. If jitter is high, I would expect bits to get flipped.

I've spent a lot of my working life repairing & calibrating spectrum analysers, audio analysers, distortion meters etc so have a reasonable idea how measurements are made & soon realised that measurements were great for verifying if I'd correctly fixed something & whether or not it met the specs. As for characterising SQ - nope! Measuring distortion at 1kHz into an 8 Ohm resistive load tells use very little about how an amplifier will sound into a real speaker load whose impedence varies with frequency & how hard it's being driven!

 

[jerry klinger]

I'm very disappointed. I thought we were going to get pictures of a lovingly upgraded early 80s turntable, challenger to the LP12. (http://www.vinylengine.com/library/logic/dm-101.shtml)

Actually I agree with everything that's been said. I listen, I deduce, then I try & figure out why.

 

[bigblue235]

I think people are very logical when it comes to Hi-Fi, I mean even though your mains electricity has travelled miles and miles through bog standard copper wiring to get to your home it's obvious that last meter before it reaches your Hi-Fi is the all-important one. When electricity escapes from your plug socket it's put into a very hostile environment, there are spiders, kids, pets and all sorts of nasties that can upset it, that's why I bought a £500 mains cable to protect it and get the best sound into my hi-fi.

Rather than have a logical debate on this I figured I'd be sarcastic, just in-case that didn't come across. Seems any threads on a debate of this kind are trolled away pretty quickly anyway. Best stick to "What award-winner should I buy, take my money please!" topics if you want real answers. Similar responses came up in the thread about MP3 quality, which seems a pretty logical subject to discuss as it's becoming the most popular listening medium.

*bite*

Maybe it's because the MP3 thread wasn't just about MP3, and if it was it'd have been more interesting.

Another logical question would be: Why are so many people on the What Hi-Fi forum so against the way What Hi-Fi do things?

 

[Ajani]

I think people are very logical when it comes to Hi-Fi, I mean even though your mains electricity has travelled miles and miles through bog standard copper wiring to get to your home it's obvious that last meter before it reaches your Hi-Fi is the all-important one. When electricity escapes from your plug socket it's put into a very hostile environment, there are spiders, kids, pets and all sorts of nasties that can upset it, that's why I bought a £500 mains cable to protect it and get the best sound into my hi-fi.

Rather than have a logical debate on this I figured I'd be sarcastic, just in-case that didn't come across. Seems any threads on a debate of this kind are trolled away pretty quickly anyway. Best stick to "What award-winner should I buy, take my money please!" topics if you want real answers. Similar responses came up in the thread about MP3 quality, which seems a pretty logical subject to discuss as it's becoming the most popular listening medium.

*bite*

Maybe it's because the MP3 thread wasn't just about MP3, and if it was it'd have been more interesting.

Another logical question would be: Why are so many people on the What Hi-Fi forum so against the way What Hi-Fi do things?

:rofl:

That is a great question. I've never understood why persons who think nothing of the review process of a hifi mag are some of the most frequent posters.

 

[Exshopguy]

I think people are very logical when it comes to Hi-Fi, I mean even though your mains electricity has travelled miles and miles through bog standard copper wiring to get to your home it's obvious that last meter before it reaches your Hi-Fi is the all-important one. When electricity escapes from your plug socket it's put into a very hostile environment, there are spiders, kids, pets and all sorts of nasties that can upset it, that's why I bought a £500 mains cable to protect it and get the best sound into my hi-fi.

Rather than have a logical debate on this I figured I'd be sarcastic, just in-case that didn't come across. Seems any threads on a debate of this kind are trolled away pretty quickly anyway. Best stick to "What award-winner should I buy, take my money please!" topics if you want real answers. Similar responses came up in the thread about MP3 quality, which seems a pretty logical subject to discuss as it's becoming the most popular listening medium.

*bite*

Maybe it's because the MP3 thread wasn't just about MP3, and if it was it'd have been more interesting.

Another logical question would be: Why are so many people on the What Hi-Fi forum so against the way What Hi-Fi do things?

I have nothing at all against the way What Hi-Fi do things. I just find whenever I pop back onto this forum there are very similar threads rather than interesting discussion, any attempt to do so - no matter what the original motive, results in the same inane chatter from the same parties. Rather than discuss a topic they put up many non-responses trying to ridicule the original poster. I didn't come here for quite a while but I remember it being a far friendlier place in the past.

 

[bigblue235]

I have nothing at all against the way What Hi-Fi do things. I just find whenever I pop back onto this forum there are very similar threads rather than interesting discussion, any attempt to do so - no matter what the original motive, results in the same inane chatter from the same parties. Rather than discuss a topic they put up many non-responses trying to ridicule the original poster. I didn't come here for quite a while but I remember it being a far friendlier place in the past.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting you had a problem with WHF, it was more just a general question about the original topic.

It was maybe a friendlier place in the past, the recent rule changes have led to rather a lot of stuff that wouldn't have been tolerated in the past. But hopefully it'll calm down when the novelty wears off. The issue is there's been rather a lot of 'just asking' kinda posts which seem innocent enough, but they haven't been 'just asking' at all, they've just been a veiled dig at the way of things here. Someone recently explained it a whole lot better than me, in another similar thread. But now it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Threads about traditional Hi-Fi, for a while, seemed to be taken over by suggestions and gushing praise for Active stuff. Threads about Active stuff have been spoiled by people questioning the claimed benefits. And so on, and so forth...

 

[John Duncan]

I have just looked up Dunning-Kruger on wikipedia, and I like it.

 

[bigblue235]

Having read a lot of CBT stuff for 'fun', I'd agree.

 

[6th.replicant]

... Why does using logic in Hifi cause such a stir? When it's used all the time in other areas of life by everyone here.

Umm...

 

[chebby]

Does it do what I need it to do? Fairly logical. If you have no LPs and no interest in getting any, don't buy a turntable. Does it have all the right connections and enough of them?

Does it look good? Aesthetic decision, so therefore not a lot of logic. Personal taste.

Can I afford it? (Logical decision.)

Does it sound good? I think this is based mostly on individual experience and taste with only a tiny bit of logic involved. Some will love a system with huge slamming bass that goes LOUD without distress. Some will love it LOUD with distress! Some others would equally love a polite, smooth, sound that excels at 'background' levels of volume.

Is it easy to use? Actually a lot of 'old school' hi-fi enthusiasts like their systems to be complicated (or seem so) so that it excludes others. The "Don't touch the hi-fi or your dad will freak" approach to hi-fi. Very 'hairy chested', very 'rack system with graphic equaliser', very 1970s. Not much logic. More about 'turf'.

 

[CnoEvil]

Logic Schmogic.

One person's "perfectly logical," is another's "incomprehensible". It's a word that's bandied about like the bible, and used to justify whatever angle is being pushed......logic dictates that bumble bees can't fly, but somehow they do (I know we have recently figured it out).

Logic is the stifler of imagination and creativity, it hems you in and prevents you from dreaming. It's not logic that took us to the moon, but aspiration and passion.

Logic is based on what we understand at the at the time, until we know better.

I'm Irish after all, so you seriously can't expect too much logic!

 

[chebby]

It's not logic that took us to the moon, but aspiration and passion.

And thousands of scientists, technicians, engineers, computers, missile designers, materials specialists, the might of the American Industrial Military machine, some very dodgy Germans, gazillions of dollars and the ever present Cold War imperative to beat the Russians to just about the only space 'landmark'/record the Russians hadn't got to first.

Oh, and some extremely 'heavy duty' logicians and mathematicians (like John Von Neumann and Alan Turing amongst others) without whom the computers - essential for getting to the moon and back - might never have been developed.

 

[fr0g]

Logic Schmogic.

One person's "perfectly logical," is another's "incomprehensible". It's a word that's bandied about like the bible, and used to justify whatever angle is being pushed......logic dictates that bumble bees can't fly, but somehow they do (I know we have recently figured it out).

Logic is the stifler of imagination and creativity, it hems you in and prevents you from dreaming. It's not logic that took us to the moon, but aspiration and passion.

Logic is based on what we understand at the at the time, until we know better.

I'm Irish after all, so you seriously can't expect too much logic!

oh dear. Where does one start?

 

[a91gti]

Even the title of this thread is illogical.

 

[John Duncan]

It's not logic that took us to the moon, but aspiration and passion.

And thousands of scientists, technicians, engineers, computers, missile designers, materials specialists, the might of the American Industrial Military machine, some very dodgy Germans, gazillions of dollars and the ever present Cold War imperative to beat the Russians to just about the only space 'landmark'/record the Russians hadn't got to first.

Oh, and some extremely 'heavy duty' logicians and mathematicians (like John Von Neumann and Alan Turing amongst others) without whom the computers - essential for getting to the moon and back - might never have been developed.

Yes, but *apart* from that...

I prefer Bertrand Russel's quote from that Dunning-Kruger thingie: "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision".

 

[Alec]

It's not logic that took us to the moon, but aspiration and passion.

And thousands of scientists, technicians, engineers, computers, missile designers, materials specialists, the might of the American Industrial Military machine, some very dodgy Germans, gazillions of dollars and the ever present Cold War imperative to beat the Russians to just about the only space 'landmark'/record the Russians hadn't got to first.

Oh, and some extremely 'heavy duty' logicians and mathematicians (like John Von Neumann and Alan Turing amongst others) without whom the computers - essential for getting to the moon and back - might never have been developed.

Yes, but *apart* from that... I prefer Bertrand Russel's quote from that Dunning-Kruger thingie: "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision".

But, rather than explain it's relevance here (it has very little if any), you'd rather just be snide with it.