Do you take this Logic, to be your lawful, wedded......

[admin_exported]

Enemy? When it comes to Hifi..

If so, why? It's one of the most fundamental thought processes, we use logic all the time in our daily lives, it's vitally important, yet when one uses logic on a forum in the context of Hifi, and poses questions as to why this should/could sound different/better than that, there are many people that either don't welcome the questions, are suspicious of the motives of the person asking them, or state that they're only asking/posing the questions because they've been brainwashed on another forum.

Why does using logic in Hifi cause such a stir? When it's used all the time in other areas of life by everyone here. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[The_Lhc]

It's one of the most fundamental thought processes, we use logic all the time in our daily lives,

Nonsense, most people don't use it at all! Almost nothing the average human does is based on logic, you've only got to look front page of the Daily Wail or the Di-aly Express to realise that. The logic that most people employ in their daily lives goes along the lines of: "Some Muslims are suicide bombers, therefore all Muslims are suicide bombers, let's send them home, no I don't care if they were born here, send them back anyway.".

Logic? Logic my arse, most humans couldn't even spell the word.

 

[fr0g]

It's one of the most fundamental thought processes, we use logic all the time in our daily lives,

Nonsense, most people don't use it at all! Almost nothing the average human does is based on logic, you've only got to look front page of the Daily Wail or the Di-aly Express to realise that. The logic that most people employ in their daily lives goes along the lines of: "Some Muslims are suicide bombers, therefore all Muslims are suicide bombers, let's send them home, no I don't care if they were born here, send them back anyway.".

Logic? Logic my arse, most humans couldn't even spell the word.

You're looking at it at the wrong level.

Everybody uses logic, all the time. Yes, the example you used is an example of bad logic...but.

Do you get up in the morning and go to the loo before pulling your pants down?

Do you brush your teeth with a fork?

Do you crack open a can of Special brew just before you get in the car?

Do you eat nothing but bacon because it's the nicest food?

Do you [EDITED BY MODS] at work at your desk because it feels good?

Everything you do requires a great deal of logic. (Logic you don't even have to think about.)

And then on a slightly higher level when you are at the supermarket, do you not go for the bigger packet because the per kg price is cheaper?

Do you not wait until a sale to buy certain goods?

Do you not hunt around the internet for the best price, rather than simply buying something at the first site you see it?

Do you not water the plants before you go on holiday?

Do you not open the windows when it's warm?

(Logic that requires a little thought.)

 

[plastic penguin]

Enemy? When it comes to Hifi..

If so, why? It's one of the most fundamental thought processes, we use logic all the time in our daily lives, it's vitally important, yet when one uses logic on a forum in the context of Hifi, and poses questions as to why this should/could sound different/better than that, there are many people that either don't welcome the questions, are suspicious of the motives of the person asking them, or state that they're only asking/posing the questions because they've been brainwashed on another forum.

Why does using logic in Hifi cause such a stir? When it's used all the time in other areas of life by everyone here. It doesn't make sense to me.

Got a bit of time on your hands, Max?

 

[Electro]

I use a combination of logic , instinct , experience , and luck in no particular order 🙂

Also I don't take anything anyone says at face value because there is always an agenda ( Human nature ) and never rush into anything without thinking it through first ( most of the time :roll: )

So far it has served me pretty well because my system is the best I have ever heard , my life is not too bad either

 

[idc]

For me it is the suspension of the rational scientific process that defies logic when discussing some aspects of hifi.

 

[The_Lhc]

For me it is the suspension of the rational scientific process that defies logic when discussing some aspects of hifi.

That's my point, most people don't employ any rational scientific processes in the rest of their lives (if they did nobody would be religious), so there is no suspension, most of fr0g's examples are learned behaviours (pretty sure I used to go to the toilet in my pants when I was a little kid but I don't anymore because I was taught not to by my parents).

 

[ID.]

Well, for most people it seems that logic = what seems reasonable to me.

i.e. it's highly subjective. e.g. It isn't logical that just an insifnificant rise in carbon dioxide could cause warming and climate change.

Now throw in a healthy dose of the Dunning-Kruger effect (a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing), and we have the classic internet forum downward spiral until the thread is locked.

 

[professorhat]

For one thing, we all think differently (and I mean that in the scientific, psychological sense). For me, my political beliefs are entirely logical, and, in many ways, I can't understand why other people would have different views to mine. Even if put all my arguments etc. into (what I would consider) reasoned and logical arguments, A.N. Other would not understand those arguments and they'd seem entirely illogical to them - just as I would probably consider their arguments illogical.

The fact that I do understand the above though does mean I can understand why they don't understand my arguments. I don't have to convince someone of my own political beliefs because I know in a lot of cases, this would be entirely impossible. Sure, I can state my beliefs and my reasonings behind them. And I can listen to other people's beliefs and their reasonings. And sometimes two people will agree, and other times they won't.

So even though some things people do and say don't make sense to you, if everyone can just remember the above, then we can probably all get along okay (most of the time anyway 🙂 ).

 

[Electro]

One thing that seems illogical to me is the amount of people that ask questions on the forum that they obviously already know the answer too :? 🙂

 

[BenLaw]

One thing that seems illogical to me is the amount of people that ask questions on the forum that they obviously already know the answer too :? 🙂

Agreed. And which put us on an inevitable path to toys being thrown out of prams. :wall:

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Enemy? When it comes to Hifi..

If so, why? It's one of the most fundamental thought processes, we use logic all the time in our daily lives, it's vitally important, yet when one uses logic on a forum in the context of Hifi, and poses questions as to why this should/could sound different/better than that, there are many people that either don't welcome the questions, are suspicious of the motives of the person asking them, or state that they're only asking/posing the questions because they've been brainwashed on another forum.

Why does using logic in Hifi cause such a stir? When it's used all the time in other areas of life by everyone here. It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sitting on the completely opposite side of the axis on this one here. I think that most of the time most of the people just follow subconscious patterns of behavior and instincts and sometimes the conscious part of our mind fools us into thinking that that's what we choose to do consciously. where in fact you're just following what body tells you to do in order to survive and pass on the spark of life. (you might read something on sociobiology in your spare time, like Edward O. Wilson)

 

[Ajani]

For one thing, we all think differently (and I mean that in the scientific, psychological sense). For me, my political beliefs are entirely logical, and, in many ways, I can't understand why other people would have different views to mine. Even if put all my arguments etc. into (what I would consider) reasoned and logical arguments, A.N. Other would not understand those arguments and they'd seem entirely illogical to them - just as I would probably consider their arguments illogical.

The fact that I do understand the above though does mean I can understand why they don't understand my arguments. I don't have to convince someone of my own political beliefs because I know in a lot of cases, this would be entirely impossible. Sure, I can state my beliefs and my reasonings behind them. And I can listen to other people's beliefs and their reasonings. And sometimes two people will agree, and other times they won't.

So even though some things people do and say don't make sense to you, if everyone can just remember the above, then we can probably all get along okay (most of the time anyway 🙂 ).

I think this argument best sums up what's wrong with talking about logic in HiFi.

Everyone employs some kind of logic. It's just that we don't all share the same opinion of what path is the most logical.

Some persons adhere to the straight wire with gain philosophy and hence want as simple a system is possible - no tone controls, feedback, etc etc etc....

Others want to use feedback and room correction to fix the problems inherent in their hifi gear.

Some persons focus almost entirely on eliminating the distortion of a crossover, so it's all about simple full range driver based systems for them.

Others believe the box enclosure (the dreaded 'monkey coffin') is the enemy of sound quality, so it's all about planars for them.

Some say that since music is analog the entire HIFI chain must be analog. Hence digital is the enemy.

Others are buying systems that keep the entire signal digital right up until the output stage of the amp to the speakers.

Some note that enough vibration will cause a turntable or even CDP to skip, hence they feel an investment in a HiFi rack is essential.

Others wonder if those persons live near a train station. As they question how much vibration is required to justify a fancy rack.

Some claim that the majority of the musical presentation is in the midrange so that is their focus.

Others think it particularly daft to buy an expensive HiFi that can't handle deep bass or high treble, as it limits your musical preferences.

I hear lots of logic based HiFi arguments daily. I believe the issue tends to be that most (if not all) of us focus too narrowly on a few areas and dismiss everything else as being irrelevant.

 

[John Duncan]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

 

[BenLaw]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

If you only did it for a year and your course was three years, you're arguably only one third tertiary qualified. Which equals....

 

[Ajani]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

You should get involved this thread is fun and likely to be short lived anyway....

 

[John Duncan]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

If you only did it for a year and your course was three years, you're arguably only one third tertiary qualified. Which equals....

Qualified?

Four years actually. Scottish education system. But it was the final year so it was hard logic.

 

[Alec]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

Oh please do, I'm sure we'd all benefit from you giving a definition of logic, for a start.

Please note, I'm not actually being sarcastic.

 

[Electro]

I think this quote rather sums it up

“Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”

 

[John Duncan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic

Primarily set theory, proof theory, propositional logic, first-order logic and completeness and incompleteness in logic systems.

 

[John Duncan]

But I prefer Electro's definition.

 

[BenLaw]

I'm not getting involved (even though, having studied logic for a year at Uni, I am tertiary qualified...)

If you only did it for a year and your course was three years, you're arguably only one third tertiary qualified. Which equals....

Qualified?

Four years actually. Scottish education system. But it was the final year so it was hard logic.

Just a joke.... I was actually hoping for a little flirting....

 

[Alec]

Me too but...whatever. Who cares?

idc...does that stand for "I don't care"?

 

[John Duncan]

Me too but...whatever. Who cares?

Maybe you should ask the OP.

 

[Alec]

Me too but...whatever. Who cares?

Maybe you should ask the OP.

Brilliant!