Moving up the Naim amp chain where the amps have progressively better internal circuitry and better power supplies, the improvements in sound quality were quite obvious to my unwashed and untrained ears. However switching to a pure class A amp and finding that it matched my speakers perfectly meant I had to abandon Naim.
oldric_naubhoff said:another forum thread (the one about nonexistence of a perfect amp) inspired me to start this thread. the answer to the question is yes. why is it so? the explanation can be found in the article I linked to below. quite lengthy but very educative IMO. please read if you haven't come across this article yet.
the Carver challenge
I don't want to spoil the fun of finding out what the article is about but it'll suffice to say I decided I'll never buy a piece of audio equipment judging only by my ears. if I don't see the graphs I'll remain unconvinced (I know this statement for most around here is simply unheard of!).
EDIT: just spotted an error in my post. maybe it was too late when I wrote it. that highlighted sentence should read "the answer to the question is no". however, they can be made to sound the same... read on.
excellent little article - thanks for sharing.
I have wondered myself why nobody is making inroads with regards to moddling amps/speakers within hifi. It's almost de-rigur for guitarists now, and there is a fantstic piece here http://www.emusician.com/techniques/0768/showdown-at-the-clubhouse--amp-software-vs-amps/141292 which gets some studio pros to see if they can tell the difference between a moddled system and the real thing.
Electro
Well-known member
- Mar 30, 2011
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the Carver challenge
Surely this article is absolute proof that all amplifiers do not sound the same . :?
Or is it just me :shifty:
Surely this article is absolute proof that all amplifiers do not sound the same . :?
Or is it just me :shifty:
the Carver challenge
Sorry I just read this article and honestly what a load of crud.
You mean to tell me that Bob took the two amps, stripped them more or less rebuilt their inards and then suggested they sound the same. I mean they even changed the sound on the reference amp to drag it down to the cheaper amp. This is pure and utter nonesense and has no place in real world listening. Were do you guys go to dig this stuff up?
I got to page 4 of the article and wondered why the author had not said...."hold on bob, what the hell you doing - did you understand the challenge, who in the real world is going to buy a £200 Rotel, take it home stripe it and then rebuild it to turn it into a Krell?"
or am I missing something? ( and I bet Bob does not work cheap ether)
I read the title and took it to mean do amps sound the same? i.e off the shelf plug in and play
To which the answer is no...... :rofl:
Sorry I just read this article and honestly what a load of crud.
You mean to tell me that Bob took the two amps, stripped them more or less rebuilt their inards and then suggested they sound the same. I mean they even changed the sound on the reference amp to drag it down to the cheaper amp. This is pure and utter nonesense and has no place in real world listening. Were do you guys go to dig this stuff up?
I got to page 4 of the article and wondered why the author had not said...."hold on bob, what the hell you doing - did you understand the challenge, who in the real world is going to buy a £200 Rotel, take it home stripe it and then rebuild it to turn it into a Krell?"
or am I missing something? ( and I bet Bob does not work cheap ether)
I read the title and took it to mean do amps sound the same? i.e off the shelf plug in and play
To which the answer is no...... :rofl:
Thompsonuxb said:
No, you miss-read, the reference amplifier was untouched.
A long time ago I worked with Bob Carver to supply some of his Phase Linear 750 amplifiers to Brittania Row, Pink Floyds live sound production company.
Somehow I came out of the job with one of his smaller PL 400 amplifiers that Bob modded for my by removing the protection circuit that was believed to compromise the sound significantly. On the basic test rig that we had, my amplifier measured 273 watts per channel on a 1khz sine wave, one channel driven. (we only had one dummy load of sufficient power)
I used this amp to drive my Spendor BC1 speakers, frightening the life out of my hifi buddies with the incredible dynamics and volume levels these normally low sensitivity, hard to drive speakers could produce.
Back on topic, The Carver article is really an excercise in amplifier voicing. The reference amplifier came from a company that had a very distinctive 'house' sound, primarily to distance it's product from that of Audio Research, it's big competitor.
That Bob could replicate the exact sound of the Premier 4 just shows what can be done, amplifiers can be made to sound pretty much however the designer wishes and producing a sound that somehow sounds 'more real than real' may be one of the the aim of some designers.
JMacMan said:"Speakers can only shine if matched to the appropriate amp (imo)."
LOL... you do realise you just made an irrefutably accurate pitch for active speakers?
I agree entirely, but feel both on technical grounds, and from personal practical experience over many years, that the task should be left to a highly qualified design or acoustic engineer, and not an amateur mixing and matching separates at a retail level - hence one of the many very much real world advantages of active speakers. And no, I'm not pushing AVI!...lol :O
JB 8)
Yup.....but that's somebody else's idea of a good "tonal match".
When they make Actives with full Class A amps, count me in. :shifty:
chebby said:
I know exactly what the point is. There's a tonal match which is subjective, and there's a technical match which isn't.
Even those "qualified somebody else's" don't agree, otherwise all actives would sound the same.....I bet you prefer some professional photogrophers work over others....why?.....because it's personal.
Electro said:I think there may be a few technical problems to overcome when designing a compact class A active speaker :shifty:
I know, and that's my point.
The good Actives I've heard have been so expensive, that I could have put something together that I'd like as much, for considerably less.
chebby said:
Active speakers are engineered to recreate music, the appreciation of which (tonally etc), is on the "Art" side of things.....so is subjective. ie. The sound the speaker makes, is like the photographers output. Cameras vary in ability, even though they are designed by technicians.
If you are talking about "technically matching" the amp to correctly drive a speaker....then I agree.
Naaah sorry, the amp Bob ended up with was not the same amp he started with so the whole argument 'do amps sound the same' becomes void in this context
In fact including his labour what I wonder would be the price of the 'new' amp rebuilt from the old considering how much of the amps inards he had to replace. Thats why so many of these tests to settle hifi debates are pointless.
The only valid test of this type would be to take two amps, one source and one pair of speakers and using nothing more than tone controls get these amps to sound lthe same - anything else is just a joke a better title is 'Can you build an amp to sound the same as another given unlimited resources in 48hrs whilst locked in an hotel room in the middle of nowhere.....'.....prrrft.'
In fact including his labour what I wonder would be the price of the 'new' amp rebuilt from the old considering how much of the amps inards he had to replace. Thats why so many of these tests to settle hifi debates are pointless.
The only valid test of this type would be to take two amps, one source and one pair of speakers and using nothing more than tone controls get these amps to sound lthe same - anything else is just a joke a better title is 'Can you build an amp to sound the same as another given unlimited resources in 48hrs whilst locked in an hotel room in the middle of nowhere.....'.....prrrft.'
CnoEvil said:JMacMan said:"Speakers can only shine if matched to the appropriate amp (imo)."
LOL... you do realise you just made an irrefutably accurate pitch for active speakers?
I agree entirely, but feel both on technical grounds, and from personal practical experience over many years, that the task should be left to a highly qualified design or acoustic engineer, and not an amateur mixing and matching separates at a retail level - hence one of the many very much real world advantages of active speakers. And no, I'm not pushing AVI!...lol :O
JB 8)
Yup.....but that's somebody else's idea of a good "tonal match".
When they make Actives with full Class A amps, count me in. :shifty:
I know you don't like to accept it, but ATC's actives are class A up to two thirds of their output. I defy you or anyone else to listen above that volume in a domestic setting.
CnoEvil said:
Actually the correct analogy is that the music is the image created by the photographer (the art, subjective) and the speakers are the display (or printing process), the purpose of which is to display the image as accurately and faithfully as possible. That's if you go along with the basis behind high fidelity, which you or anyone else is perfectly entitled to reject.
BenLaw said:
To get 35W of pure Class A requires an amp that weighs around 28 kg, and will reach at least 35 deg C. AB amps almost never sound like the real thing imo.
BenLaw said:
I see it like this:
Sound from speakers (music) = Photographers Output (images) ie.Subjective
Active Speaker = Camera ie. capture as accurately as possible through the design
Printing Process = Room acoustics ie. Pass on what was captured accurately
People buy Art / Music / Photographs / Hifi, because they like them....which may coincide with accuracy, or it may not..
@ Jmacman
why does it always have to be "actives are the best because they have amps inside which were stuffed in by qualified engineers and not by me"? surely, if you have an amp that feels comfortable driving a rock then it doesn't really mater which speakers you attach at the output? and it surely doesn't matter who connects the cables then? or am I missing something from your logic because that's what I believe you're on to. and in case you were wondering; yes, there are amps out there that are stable even into the wildest loads so they really don't care what speakers you throw at them. example? for instance class A Accuphase. you could surely find much cheaper options but Accu would be one of the better known.
why does it always have to be "actives are the best because they have amps inside which were stuffed in by qualified engineers and not by me"? surely, if you have an amp that feels comfortable driving a rock then it doesn't really mater which speakers you attach at the output? and it surely doesn't matter who connects the cables then? or am I missing something from your logic because that's what I believe you're on to. and in case you were wondering; yes, there are amps out there that are stable even into the wildest loads so they really don't care what speakers you throw at them. example? for instance class A Accuphase. you could surely find much cheaper options but Accu would be one of the better known.
oldric_naubhoff said:
I think Jmacman is talking about the principle that an active speaker is better than a passive version due to the employment of an active crossover and optimisation of the internal amps to match the requirements of the drivers.
Indeed such amps as you mentioned are available, much more so for sensibly sized speakers in a typical UK living room, for example, but then you still have the passive crossover to contend with.
Do all amps sound the same?
No.
Compare Cyrus to Quad.
Both well designed (maybe some would disagree).
They sound completely different!
I remember (vaguely as it was over 10 years ago!) demoing some AVR's.
A high end Denon (£2500.00) and a mid range Denon (£800.00).
The £2500.00 one sound amazing driving some Sonus Faber speakers.
I tried Sonus Faber speakers with the £800.00 Denon – they sounded awful!
Also, is the question just about power amps?
What about pre amps, integrated amps, AV amps?
With the various amps I have owned and demoed I have gone from the extreme of avoiding some CD's and tracks entirely because of listening fatigue to being able to play almost any CD (apart from rubbish one that I just don't like).
No.
Compare Cyrus to Quad.
Both well designed (maybe some would disagree).
They sound completely different!
I remember (vaguely as it was over 10 years ago!) demoing some AVR's.
A high end Denon (£2500.00) and a mid range Denon (£800.00).
The £2500.00 one sound amazing driving some Sonus Faber speakers.
I tried Sonus Faber speakers with the £800.00 Denon – they sounded awful!
Also, is the question just about power amps?
What about pre amps, integrated amps, AV amps?
With the various amps I have owned and demoed I have gone from the extreme of avoiding some CD's and tracks entirely because of listening fatigue to being able to play almost any CD (apart from rubbish one that I just don't like).
Overdose said:
sorry OD, but I get the impression you really don't get what I'm talking about. if you have an amp that drives equally well every load at every electrical phase angle than surely there's no more "optimisation" you could possibly think of. the only "advantage" (LOL!) those "optimised internal amps" might have over decently designed stand alone power amp is they can be severely compromised in many respects and still get away with it, mainly due to use of active xover as they wouldn't need to amplify the entire audible spectrum (but still the tweeter amp will need to be over-engineered compared to the woofer amp for best performance, a.k.a. to avoid high frequency TIM and transient saturation which causes distortion as well) and having known drivers with known electric properties (in most cases it means there's no need to cater for a 2 Ohm load). that's about it!
Overdose said:
that depends on what you think the bottle neck is in a hi-fi system. for me it's only the drivers. do you even realise what is the mass of a typical dome? or even more so - of a typical 6.5' cone? do you really think this can possibly follow electrical impulses accurately (even with the use of an electronic xover) knowing what level of inertia is caused making those diaphragms move? simply check THD measurements for dynamic speakers vs. ESLs to get the idea of what I'm talking about. sorry OD but the sad truth is active speakers are not the ultimate in hi-fi, they are only second best and only better from their passive counterparts. I really can't understand why so many around here herald actives to be the end game in hi-fi....
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