Distance between speakers - and soundstage puzzle.

[Green Bow]

I am wondering if speakers with a large soundstage could work with a small distance between them.

E.g.

If speakers were normally two metres apart. A sound that was in the middle of the soundstage would be 1 metre from either speaker. However if you put the speakers one metre apart, where would that sound be. Would it still be in the middle? Or would it be a mess? Would the left speaker be projecting that sound one metre over still. If so it would be played where the right speaker was. Vice-versa too.

 

[abacus]

The soundstage is produced in the brain, not by the speakers. (If the same sound is produced by both speakers, then no matter how close they are the sound will always appear to come from between them)

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[Vladimir]

The distances from the floor, back and side walls are more important. They should all be different, ideally arranged by the golden ratio.

 

[Green Bow]

The soundstage is produced in the brain, not by the speakers. (If the same sound is produced by both speakers, then no matter how close they are the sound will always appear to come from between them)

Hope this helps

Bill

Well all experience happens in the brain. However it doesn't apply to how soundstage is produced by hardware. We experience what the hardware does.

Going back to the example of setting two speakers 2m apart. Instead of thinking about a sound in the centre of them, use another example. Think of a sound 1m to the right of the right speaker. Push the speakers closer with a 1m gap between. them Then the sound to the right is still 1m out to the right.

Therefor why would the sound 1M to left of the right speaker still appear in the middle. (Vice-versa too.) Meaning when the speakers were pushed together to a distance of 1m.

@ Vladimir, yes that's a good point that I keep forgetting.

 

[abacus]

A speaker radiates sound from a single point therefore it cannot create an image outside of this (Apart fron reflections off walls etc.), and any sound that appears to come from outside this range is purely an illusion created by the brain.

May be hard to grasp but thats the fact of the matter.

Bill

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Not sure that's correct.

A single speaker creates a 'mono' image - sound from a single point. a stereo pair creates a stereo image when placed equal distance to the listener - usually represented by the triangle were the sound 'overlap' is were the stereo image is created.

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

If sound is equal in both speakers you get the central (mono) illusion placement of instruments in that image is created by having different levels between the speakers in that a sound will appear to be left of centre if the bias is louder in the left speaker, or far left if the sound only comes from the left speaker only.

Stereo soundstage is deliberate and created at the mixing stage.

A single speaker will not create a stereo image full stop.

2 or more speakers are required to generate a stereophonic image.

Moving one speaker closer to the other skews the imag provided the listener is stationary.
The bias is to which ever speaker is moved.

If the speakers are placed side by side a near mono image will be created.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[andyjm]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears. Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers. This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow. The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Funny some can imagine a single loudspeaker can throw a sound off to the left or right. The simplest of physics is all that's required for a basic understanding.

That said, as mentioned, soundstage is mostly about speaker position in relation to walls and listener, toe-in and timing.

I would suggest, rather than state with certainty, the best soundstage will be achieved by speakers more able to appear point-source. A large multi driver speaker will struggle particularly when close. Hence Kefs UniQ and Tannoys. Additionally its mostly about treble/midrange so good timing and phase within the crossover is a factor. Feel free to challenge these basics but at the end of the day, the initial premise was flawed.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As the OP hasn't asked about stereo imaging outside of the stereo pair of speakers, let's concentrate on what happens between the speakers. The distance the speakers are apart is important - all manufacturers will provide a guideline as to how far to have them apart. The you move the speakers further towards each other, yes, the central image will stay where it is, but the imaging of everything else that isn't central tends to get messed up somewhat. A 1m apart doesn't really produce much of a stereo soundfield at all, and in this case I would recommend using some sort of mono mode, if available.

Personally, I prefer an equilateral triangle toed towards the listener with wide imaging speakers, and isosceles triangle with very little toe in with more narrow imaging speakers.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears.  Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers.   This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow.  The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.   

I challenge you to generate a stereo image with a single speaker - bounce the sound off walls and ceilings if you wish......

Take your most stereophonic recording and knock yourself.

 

[abacus]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears. Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers. This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow. The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.

I challenge you to generate a stereo image with a single speaker - bounce the sound off walls and ceilings if you wish......

Take your most stereophonic recording and knock yourself.

I think you have misunderstood what has been said, no one has said that you can create a stereo image from a single speaker, only that a speaker can only produce sound from a single point. If you have 2 loudspeakers then you have 2 point sources, neither of which can produce a sound outside of its own point source, hence andyjm's post is 100% correct.

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears.  Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers.   This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow.  The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.  ?

I challenge you to generate a stereo image with a single speaker - bounce the sound off walls and ceilings if you wish......

Take your most stereophonic recording and knock yourself.

I think you have misunderstood what has been said, no one has said that you can create a stereo image from a single speaker, only that a speaker can only produce sound from a single point. If you have 2 loudspeakers then you have 2 point sources, neither of which can produce a sound outside of its own point source, hence andyjm's post is 100% correct.

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

No he is not!

2 speakers producing the same sound at the same level equal distant from the listener will create a mono image between them.

No amount of 'brain activity' will turn it into stereo.....

Try it at home with your own speakers.

Use a test tone.

 

[andyjm]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears. Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers. This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow. The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.

I challenge you to generate a stereo image with a single speaker - bounce the sound off walls and ceilings if you wish......

Take your most stereophonic recording and knock yourself.

I think you have misunderstood what has been said, no one has said that you can create a stereo image from a single speaker, only that a speaker can only produce sound from a single point. If you have 2 loudspeakers then you have 2 point sources, neither of which can produce a sound outside of its own point source, hence andyjm's post is 100% correct.

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

No he is not!

2 speakers producing the same sound at the same level equal distant from the listener will create a mono image between them.

No amount of 'brain activity' will turn it into stereo.....

Try it at home with your own speakers.

Use a test tone.

Your brain certainly interprets it as a single sound image between the speakers, but of course it does not exist. There is no 'mono image' mysteriously floating between the speakers, it is all in your mind. The two speakers have fooled you, just as they do to create a stereo soundstage.

 

[jmjones]

Hi Green Bow,

Many moons ago, whilst in a single university room I temporarily put my old speakers on my desk, one either side, at distance of maybe 3 feet. The speakers were 3 feet tall and had three drive units including a 12" bass driver. Sitting between them (and turning them down) - perfect stereo. I remember listening to "Love is the Drug" and the footsteps moving across between them. Biggest pair of headphones ever.

Stereo imaging comes from your ears and brain being "fooled" by the illusion that two point sources can create. Doesn't happen very often in nature, i.e. the same noise comes from two different points at the same time.

 

[MeanandGreen]

A very convincing illusion I must admit because even when I had a dog she used to look at the centre of the soundstage when there was speech coming from the system.

When listening to headphones there is no hole in the middle of the sound. It sounds like it's in your head. That is a perfect example of a stereo illusion.

This topic has made me think of an album I have which was recorded with Qsound. It does a very convincing job of making you think that sound is emitting from specific points well outside of the speakers, not just in between them.

This album has successfully created this illusion with every amp, speakers and room combination I've ever had.

The album may not be most people's taste on here and it may be a bit of a surprise, but it's The Imaculate Collection by Madonna. It's one of the best sounding CD's I own and it's a CD of reference for me when setting speakers up in a room for the first time.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The album may not be most people's taste on here and it may be a bit of a surprise, but it's The Imaculate Collection by Madonna. It's one of the best sounding CD's I own and it's a CD of reference for me when setting speakers up in a room for the first time.

Roger Waters' Amused To Death, and Sting's Soul Cages also spring to mind regarding Q Sound.

 

[Electro]

Sting , Pink Floyd, and Roger Waters also released Q sound recording and the effect was astonishing with noises seeming to come from beside and behind the listener and the feeling of being enveloped in a soundfield a bit like a three dimensional bubble .

It is a pity more were not made, it was very entertaining .

http://www.qsound.com/corporate/chronology.htm

Edit , I see David beat me to it *smile*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Its not in the brain the stereo image is created - it's actually between the two speakers.

The brain performs audio spatial localisation by using timing and volume differences of the sound received by the ears.  Put crudely, if the sound arrives at the left ear before the right and is louder, then the brain figures the source is likely to be off to the left.

For those with AV processors, timing and loudness of the various speakers can be adjusted to take into account the positioning and performance of the speakers.   This is all to create the illusion of a sound that isn't just a point source located at the speaker positions.

Clearly a stereo image doesn't exist in reality, its all about fooling the brain into thinking that a sound source exists where it doesn't.

This is similar to a colour TV fooling viewers into thinking a colour is (say) yellow.  The TV can't produce yellow, what it does is stimulate the eye using the correct proportion of red, green and blue to make the brain think that the colour is yellow.

So, just like a colour TV picture, stereo image is all in the brain.  ?

I challenge you to generate a stereo image with a single speaker - bounce the sound off walls and ceilings if you wish......

Take your most stereophonic recording and knock yourself.

I think you have misunderstood what has been said, no one has said that you can create a stereo image from a single speaker, only that a speaker can only produce sound from a single point. If you have 2 loudspeakers then you have 2 point sources, neither of which can produce a sound outside of its own point source, hence andyjm's post is 100% correct.

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

No he is not!

2 speakers producing the same sound at the same level equal distant from the listener will create a mono image between them.

No amount of 'brain activity' will turn it into stereo.....

Try it at home with your own speakers.

Use a test tone.

Your brain certainly interprets it as a single sound image between the speakers, but of course it does not exist.  There is no 'mono image' mysteriously floating between the speakers, it is all in your mind. The two speakers have fooled you, just as they do to create a stereo soundstage.

No, that's still wrong.

Using a tone test.

Sit directly infront of a single speaker the sound comes from a single point - agreed.

Move to your right the location of the speaker will shift to your left - blind you can identify were the speaker sits. But you will identify it as a single speaker.

A two speaker set up in the classic stereo set up the sound appears to be in front from a single point also (mono) - but move to your right and the distance of the left speaker becomes apparent and the location of the right speaker localised.

Step outside the sweet spot and the location of both speakers become apparent to you.

Its not in the 'brain' it's a 'real' phenomenon caused by the 'overlap' of sound and the time the sound reaches your ears.

A person deaf in one ear will not hear stereo and will only hear 'mono' - the sound appearing in front of them. they will hear both speakers the same regardless of were they move. No stereo image. Like a one eyed person their depth perception is affected.

There is loads of stuff that explains this.....loads!

We don't hear in stereo our hearing is far wider than that - we hear in spherical 360degrees approx around, above and below our heads in fact.

Try placing one speaker in front of you and another behind and see what happens with the sound.

Once in the sweet spot walls etc have little bearing on your perception.

 

[jmjones]

Sorry Thompson that isn't right. Everything you state on positioning is explained by your brain's evaluation of position from the sounds coming into your ears.

And by the way, a person deaf in one ear can still perceive some aspects of stereo in the way that a one eyed person can still estimate depth from position. Follow the sound of a moving car with one ear plugged. Catch a ball with one eye shut. Your brain will conjure up what it can even in limited circumstances.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Sorry Thompson that isn't right. Everything you state on positioning is explained by your brain's evaluation of position from the sounds coming into your ears.

And by the way, a person deaf in one ear can still perceive some aspects of stereo in the way that a one eyed person can still estimate depth from position. Follow the sound of a moving car with one ear plugged. Catch a ball with one eye shut. Your brain will conjure up what it can even in limited circumstances.

No.....I am right.....

Be it sighted or blind everything I've said stands.

One of the reasons why stereo music sounds better in the dark is without the visual Que of speaker location the 'central' image no longer matters and the 'need' to sit in the sweet spot diminishes.

I agree people adapt but have a chat with someone deaf in one ear then talk to them about the wonders of stereo.

 

[jmjones]

To me, music sounds no different in the dark.

As for the latter point, I just did. My wife sat next to me is partially deaf and it's on the left side. She can identify a sound that traverses position, be it a stereo image or a real noise movement. She likes our system too, which is just as well or my expenditure would have been severely restricted in past years.

Anyway, one thing is for certain. In response to the OPs original question - it would work.

Happy listening.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To me, music sounds no different in the dark.

As for the latter point, I just did. My wife sat next to me is partially deaf and it's on the left side. She can identify a sound that traverses position, be it a stereo image or a real noise movement. She likes our system too, which is just as well or my expenditure would have been severely restricted in past years.

Happy listening.

Not fair...... I mean bringing in your wife..... You know I can't dispute what you say.

The levels some of you will go to....I swear.....

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

 

[jmjones]

Find a blind relative, regardless of arguments. Actually, I do agree that I find music more enjoyable when the lights are dimmed. Ambience and all that.

Have a good day.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

It is surprising the size of soundstage a pair of speakers can produce once you remove the confines of the room from your consciousness. I always prefer listening to music in the dark - seeing the speakers can severely bias what you hear, or at least how you perceive it, in my opinion.