Distance between speakers - and soundstage puzzle.

[Green Bow]

@jmjones, I think you said it when you said you tried it with three foot tall speakers on your desk.

That is my intention. I have some smallish active speakers on my desk. However I was wondering how other smallish bookshelf/smaller standmount speakers with a huge sound stage would perfom on my desk.

Reading the last twenty replies did make me think of one aspect I had not considered. Possibly the closer you sit to the speakers, the smaller the radiated image. As we think of sound radiating in an expanding cone from the speaker.

Anyway all this talk of how stereo works. Some folk correctly identified that volume helps the brain detect direction of sound. However there is another aspect of sound which tells the brain where sound is coming from. Higher frequency sounds have very short wavelenghts. If a high frequency sound was emitted evenly at an even distance, it would sound even. However with stereo a sound can come from one side more than the other. The high frequency sound waves can then be detected by the brain as being out of phase. Meaning the peakes and troughs of the sound wave etc are at different times. (It doesn't work with low frequency sound because the waves are huge. That is why sub-woofer unit placement need not be exact.)

 

[manicm]

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

It is surprising the size of soundstage a pair of speakers can produce once you remove the confines of the room from your consciousness. I always prefer listening to music in the dark - seeing the speakers can severely bias what you hear, or at least how you perceive it, in my opinion.

I do find that listening in the dark, at night, music seems to have a much greater impact, because you have much less visual distractions, and thus more time for your ears. The eyes are closed or just staring into space.

 

[Green Bow]

Someone managed to work out what I was asking here, on another of my threads. I never thought to write the reason why.

My question was about what would happen in you put speakers with a large soundstage on a desktop. Would the sound image from one speaker mess with the image of teh other speaker, being so close. However I didn't take inot consideration that when sitting at the desktop, the listener would be close up.

I still wonder how it would work over-all, listening close-up, and at fair distance. I think it would be OK. It's just hard to imaging that speakers that project sound so laterally would keep the image tight when placed together.

 

[Andrewjvt]

To me, music sounds no different in the dark.

As for the latter point, I just did. My wife sat next to me is partially deaf and it's on the left side. She can identify a sound that traverses position, be it a stereo image or a real noise movement. She likes our system too, which is just as well or my expenditure would have been severely restricted in past years.

Happy listening.

Not fair...... I mean bringing in your wife..... You know I can't dispute what you say.

The levels some of you will go to....I swear.....

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

Agree with you regarding the stereo imaging as i agree with the brain being fooled but i do agree that music sometimes sounds better in the dark but i dont know. Could be a more.relaxing atmosphere with nothing to distract you

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The brain is not fooled. The stereo image is actually created by the placement of a pair of speakers.

Because of what we know we expect a central image - say vocals to be dead centre between a pair of speakers given visual ques.

Take that away and it won't matter if the image is 'central' provided within the stereo image (the overlap) that triangle still appears left of centre in the mix with that piano far right behind the main vocalist.

Proof the stereo image is created is to simply swap your speakers around left and right - the image is reversed the triangle now being right of centre the piano far left. The vocalist still dead centre.

What more proof would you need to show that stereo is created (multiple mics via the mixing board etc) in the space between speakers and not in the brain.

Listening in the dark removes visual questions that we by nature use to identify our own position in our environment. Allow less worry if the image is off.....

But a single speaker is unable to generate a stereo image.

 

[MajorFubar]

The levels some of you will go to....I swear.....

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

Do you never ever twig that mostly it's just you that everyone else tries in vain to explain things to.

And yes I prefer listening to music at night or in the dark, or low light. Of course it doesn't sound better but the sensory depravation helps me to concentrate on the music without distractions.

Green bow: what you suggest is an interesting thery, but I don't think it will work. Feel free to try it and report back, though probably best start another thread for your results lol.

 

[jmjones]

We are flogging a dead horse here, but have a think about this. Dead right on a pair of speakers required to generate stereo, and singles can't.

A single speaker can't generate stereo, but a single microphone can. An engineer takes a single sound, splits the volume and plays it preferentially from one speaker to another. Your brain interprets that as movement (try a few early Beatles tracks). The source was not actually moving.

You can make a recording with multiple microphones. In my collection, I'm only aware of one. It is a multichannel mix by David Elias where the whole band was surrounded by mikes. Interesting. It does sound like you are in the middle of it. Most mixes though rely on an engineer. Try a multichannel "Dark Side of the Moon".

Last example. Car passes a stereo microphone set and the engineer plays back exactly what was recorded through two speakers. Sounds like a passing car. 2nd engineer takes a mono recording of a car and adjusts volume between two speakers and adds some Doppler effect. Sounds like a passing car.

Your brain isn't fooled, but it is interpreting.

 

[MajorFubar]

Mixing in mono...now there's an artform for you. I'm rubbish at it. Back in the day when there were more mono record players than stereo, it wasn't at all uncommon for an LP to have a dedicated mono mix, which sounded better on mono equipment than the stereo LP folded down (ie summed to mono). The Beatles mono LPs are perhaps the most famous examples, but they were by no means alone. There were loads.

 

[Petherick]

Actually something that no one has specifically mentioned is that the intent with 'stereo' equipment is to create a stereophonic image. This will give (or give the impression of) a 3D image in sound with width, height and depth. It's actually rarely accomplished but this is the aim. It's wonderful when it happens!

 

[steve_1979]

Someone managed to work out what I was asking here, on another of my threads. I never thought to write the reason why.

My question was about what would happen in you put speakers with a large soundstage on a desktop. Would the sound image from one speaker mess with the image of teh other speaker, being so close. However I didn't take inot consideration that when sitting at the desktop, the listener would be close up.

I still wonder how it would work over-all, listening close-up, and at fair distance. I think it would be OK. It's just hard to imaging that speakers that project sound so laterally would keep the image tight when placed together.

Give it a go it'll probably be fine. Near field listening works well with most speakers provided they are small to medium sized two way speakers.

 

[andyjm]

Your brain isn't fooled, but it is interpreting.

In a typical stereo setup, there are two point sources, a left speaker and a right speaker. If your brain was any good at spatial location, it would identify the two separate speakers as two separate sources. It doesn't (I guess because two point sources producing related sounds aren't found in nature) and instead produces an imaginary soundstage in the listener's head to rationalise the experienced sound.

You may call that interpreting, but where I come from it looks like the listener is being fooled.

 

[manicm]

Your brain isn't fooled, but it is interpreting.

In a typical stereo setup, there are two point sources, a left speaker and a right speaker.  If your brain was any good at spatial location, it would identify the two separate speakers as two separate sources.  It doesn't (I guess because two point sources producing related sounds aren't found in nature) and instead produces an imaginary soundstage in the listener's head to rationalise the experienced sound.

You may call that interpreting, but where I come from it looks like the listener is being fooled.

 

Not so sure about, what happens if you put a single speaker exactly in front of you but at a normal distance? Also some recordings have actual channel seperation i.e. some instruments on the left and some on the right.

 

[Vladimir]

Stereophonic sound

Stereophonic sound[/b] or, more commonly, stereo[/b], is a method of sound reproduction that creates an illusion of multi-directional audible perspective. This is usually achieved by using two or more independent audio channels through a configuration of two or more loudspeakers (or stereo headphones) in such a way as to create the impression of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing.

Stereo sound systems can be divided into two forms: The first is "true" or "natural" stereo in which a live sound is captured, with any natural reverberation or ambience present, by an array of microphones. The signal is then reproduced over multiple loudspeakers to recreate, as closely as possible, the live sound.

Secondly "artificial" or "pan-pot" stereo, in which a single-channel (mono) sound is reproduced over multiple loudspeakers. By varying the relative amplitude of the signal sent to each speaker an artificial direction (relative to the listener) can be suggested. The control which is used to vary this relative amplitude of the signal is known as a "pan-pot" (panoramic potentiometer). By combining multiple "pan-potted" mono signals together, a complete, yet entirely artificial, sound field can be created.

Duophonic

Duophonic[/b] is a term used to refer to a sound process by which a monaural recording is reprocessed into a kind of "fake stereo" by splitting the signal into two channels, delaying the left and the right channels by means of delay lines and other circuits, desynchronizing the two channels by fractions of a second, and cutting the bass frequencies in one channel with a high-pass filter, then cutting the treble frequencies in the other channel with a low-pass filter. The result was an artificial stereo effect, without giving the listener the true directional sound characteristics of real stereo. In some cases, the effect was enhanced with reverberation and other technical tricks, sometimes adding stereo echo to mono tracks in an attempt to fool the listener.

Monaural

Monaural[/b] or monophonic sound reproduction[/b] (often shortened to mono[/b]) is intended to be heard as if it were a single channel of sound perceived as coming from one position (unlike stereo, which uses two channels to convey the impression of sound coming from different places from left, middle, and right). In mono, only one loudspeaker is necessary, but, when played through multiple loudspeakers or headphones, identical signals are fed through each of the wires into each speaker, resulting in the perception of a one-channel sound, which "images" in one sonic space between the speakers (provided that the speakers are set up in a proper symmetrical critical-listening placement). Monaural recordings, like stereo, customarily use multiple microphones, fed into multiple channels on a recording console, but each channel is "panned" to be in the center. In the final stage, the various center-panned signal paths are usually mixed down to two identical tracks, which because they are identical, are perceived upon playback as representing a single unified signal in a single place in the soundstage. In some cases the multitrack source is mixed down to a one track tape becoming one signal. In the mastering stage, particularly in the days of mono records, the one-track or two-track mono master tape was then transferred to a one-track lathe intended to be used in the pressing of a monophonic record. However, today monaural recordings are usually mastered onto stereo and multitrack mediums, yet continue to retain their center-panned mono soundstage characteristics when played back.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The levels some of you will go to....I swear.....

Let's see if anyone else picks up on the music in the dark....

Do you never ever twig that mostly it's just you that everyone else tries in vain to explain things to.

And yes I prefer listening to music at night or in the dark, or low light. Of course it doesn't sound better but the sensory depravation helps me to concentrate on the music without distractions.

Green bow: what you suggest is an interesting thery, but I don't think it will work. Feel free to try it and report back, though probably best start another thread for your results lol.

Lol.....no Major, it's me explaining to them.......

As is usually the way with these things.....

Vlads last post is interesting.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

We are flogging a dead horse here, but have a think about this. Dead right on a pair of speakers required to generate stereo, and singles can't.?

A single speaker can't generate stereo, but a single microphone can. An engineer takes a single sound, splits the volume and plays it preferentially from one speaker to another. Your brain interprets that as movement (try a few early Beatles tracks). The source was not actually moving.?

You can make a recording with multiple microphones. In my collection, I'm only aware of one. It is a multichannel mix by David Elias where the whole band was surrounded by mikes. Interesting. It does sound like you are in the middle of it. Most mixes though rely on an engineer. Try a multichannel "Dark Side of the Moon".

Last example. Car passes a stereo microphone set and the engineer plays back exactly what was recorded through two speakers. Sounds like a passing car. 2nd engineer takes a mono recording of a car and adjusts volume between two speakers and adds some Doppler effect. Sounds like a passing car.?

Your brain isn't fooled, but it is interpreting.

No it's not - the image is engineered, re-read your own post.

It'd be easier to just say ok Thompson you're right......

 

[steve_1979]

Ok Thompson. You're right.

 

[MajorFubar]

Lol.....no Major, it's me explaining to them.......

As is usually the way with these things.....

Yeah most crazed lunatics think all the world's insane apart from them

 

[jmjones]

Thanks Vlad, very eloquently put. *clapping**clapping**clapping*

 

[jmjones]

..but I was trying to be polite.*dash1*