hi bigair,in my experience cabling makes a difference,whether it be speaker,interconnect or mains,i have played with them all here in australia,cabling can alter the sound of your equipment,however these changes are not always obvious,the biggest effect is more often than not in my experience the room you are playing your hifi in and i suspect the many doudters have more problems with room effect and therefore find it dificult to differentiate,remember the room has possibly the greatest effect on your hifi and the sound it reproduces.
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JoelSim:jaxwired:one off: jaxwired:I agree with Joel on this one. Interconnects and speaker cable make a noticable difference and anyone that cannot hear it is probably wasting their money on expensive hifi.
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
gpi:one off:
hey it works now excellentSo how did you do that? I have a Mac too and tried to use an emoticon the way I thought it would work but it didn't appear in my post.
chose anything other than quick reply and there it was but its stopped working now
you can copy and paste which is ok
chose anything other than quick reply and there it was but its stopped working now
you can copy and paste which is ok
one off:JoelSim:jaxwired:one off: jaxwired:I agree with Joel on this one. Interconnects and speaker cable make a noticable difference and anyone that cannot hear it is probably wasting their money on expensive hifi.
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
I was talking about the 'OMG she's in the room', ie the subtle difference
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
I was talking about the 'OMG she's in the room', ie the subtle difference
JoelSim:one off:JoelSim:jaxwired:one off: jaxwired:I agree with Joel on this one. Interconnects and speaker cable make a noticable difference and anyone that cannot hear it is probably wasting their money on expensive hifi.
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
I was talking about the 'OMG she's in the room', ie the subtle difference
thats a major difference to me im talking about slightly better definition on a high hat type difference
apologiues their should have been a smiley in the earlier post but it went missing again
so since i can only hear a tiny tiny bit with speaker cable and none with interconnects does that mean i should downgrade to a budget or a midrange setup
youll have to imagine the smiley cant do them on a mac
In my opinion, cables can be the difference between "sounds great" and "OMG! She's In The Room!" If a person can't hear cable differences, than I would question the wisdom in spending many times what a budget system costs for what you may not be able to hear.
It is subtle, but I think you have the difference down to a tee
thats pure snobbism
next thing youll want people to take hearing tests before their allowed to buy hifi like apartheid but aparthifi
you have to allow that it might be a psycological thing ive hear the difference for speaker cable and its tiny anyway
I was talking about the 'OMG she's in the room', ie the subtle difference
thats a major difference to me im talking about slightly better definition on a high hat type difference
apologiues their should have been a smiley in the earlier post but it went missing again
I'm in the camp of cables do make a difference but with some obvious caveats.
1. The spend should be in proportion to your overall system budget.
2. IME the closer to the speaker the bigger the effect from upgrade with the reverse being true.
3. Sometimes what you get from changing cables falls more in the camp of 'different' rather than 'better'.
4. If you really want to hear a significant difference, save your pennies and buy yourself a new box or speakers!
5. In the right system balanced cables can give you just that little bit more.
1. The spend should be in proportion to your overall system budget.
2. IME the closer to the speaker the bigger the effect from upgrade with the reverse being true.
3. Sometimes what you get from changing cables falls more in the camp of 'different' rather than 'better'.
4. If you really want to hear a significant difference, save your pennies and buy yourself a new box or speakers!
5. In the right system balanced cables can give you just that little bit more.
logically it should make a difference.
but for our case, we could not hear any significant difference. (anyways, my units are just m-cr502 marantz and bose 301, and my cables are only 2-3mtrs per chanel). i was interchanging 3 sets of different cables (2 were borrowed from my friends) of different thickness and quality (base on price) then played them one by one several times while four of my friends were blind-folded in the middle of my room. everytime i changed the cable (sometime i did not change actually), i asked my friends if they hear any difference. there were different comments. some said no difference when i actually changed the cables. there were occasions when one was saying that the previous is better, while the other one preferred the later one, when in fact i really did not changed the cables.
well, this is just based on our experience. maybe it will be a totally different story for higher-end sound system, and maybe for longer cables.
but for our case, we could not hear any significant difference. (anyways, my units are just m-cr502 marantz and bose 301, and my cables are only 2-3mtrs per chanel). i was interchanging 3 sets of different cables (2 were borrowed from my friends) of different thickness and quality (base on price) then played them one by one several times while four of my friends were blind-folded in the middle of my room. everytime i changed the cable (sometime i did not change actually), i asked my friends if they hear any difference. there were different comments. some said no difference when i actually changed the cables. there were occasions when one was saying that the previous is better, while the other one preferred the later one, when in fact i really did not changed the cables.
well, this is just based on our experience. maybe it will be a totally different story for higher-end sound system, and maybe for longer cables.
How can you possible know which mains cable to buy. There are hundreds to choose from Which is the best for your system? We all have different systems, different rooms, different music etc. The biggest myth is that the mains cable supplied isn't any good. This is clearly not the case, as they provide an excellent trouble free signal. By spending say £50 on something chunkier and brightly colured, is almost certainlly a waste of money.
cse:How can you possible know which mains cable to buy. There are hundreds to choose from Which is the best for your system? We all have different systems, different rooms, different music etc. The biggest myth is that the mains cable supplied isn't any good. This is clearly not the case, as they provide an excellent trouble free signal. By spending say £50 on something chunkier and brightly colured, is almost certainlly a waste of money.
As I've said before, it's about refining and hearing more of a sound you already like. Like all products there are some good examples and some not so good. I found a Merlin Tarantula and a Russ Andrews Powerkord made negligible difference, but a Nordost Shiva was superb.
Unfortunately it was this Shiva that turned me into a cable fanatic and it's cost me a lot of money. Beware!
As I've said before, it's about refining and hearing more of a sound you already like. Like all products there are some good examples and some not so good. I found a Merlin Tarantula and a Russ Andrews Powerkord made negligible difference, but a Nordost Shiva was superb.
Unfortunately it was this Shiva that turned me into a cable fanatic and it's cost me a lot of money. Beware!
RCduck7:
I always try to find and buy some very good cheaper alternatives that are presented by critics and forum posters.
£74 on fleabay. Good value to me as it was like upgrading my CDP.
I always try to find and buy some very good cheaper alternatives that are presented by critics and forum posters.
£74 on fleabay. Good value to me as it was like upgrading my CDP.
My cables are...
Speaker cables:
The Anti cable (very cheap if you buy the wire without plugs per meter from the roll).
http://www.anticables.com/
AG audio interconnects...
http://cgi.ebay.com/AG-AUDIO-SILVER-FOIL-RCA-INTERCONNECT-CABLES-1-25M_W0QQitemZ180421961866QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item2a01fca88a
WireWorld mains conditioning cables, the Aurora and Electra...
http://www.wireworldcable.com/categories/power_cords.html
With my mains cables i did stretch my budget though, difference was hard to ignore for a mains, but i wouldn't have payed more. I blame it for the conditioning part the cables do.
JoelSim, i wonder how the Nordost Shiva would compare to the Wireworld as i tried many mains cables and only the WireWorld came obvious on top. Do the Shiva's have besides their propably good use of materials offer some conditioning in the way they are build?
I admit the Aurora and certaily the Electra costed more then the Shiva, i think my my previous quote originated from associating everything with the Nordost name to expensive.
Speaker cables:
The Anti cable (very cheap if you buy the wire without plugs per meter from the roll).
http://www.anticables.com/
AG audio interconnects...
http://cgi.ebay.com/AG-AUDIO-SILVER-FOIL-RCA-INTERCONNECT-CABLES-1-25M_W0QQitemZ180421961866QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item2a01fca88a
WireWorld mains conditioning cables, the Aurora and Electra...
http://www.wireworldcable.com/categories/power_cords.html
With my mains cables i did stretch my budget though, difference was hard to ignore for a mains, but i wouldn't have payed more. I blame it for the conditioning part the cables do.
JoelSim, i wonder how the Nordost Shiva would compare to the Wireworld as i tried many mains cables and only the WireWorld came obvious on top. Do the Shiva's have besides their propably good use of materials offer some conditioning in the way they are build?
I admit the Aurora and certaily the Electra costed more then the Shiva, i think my my previous quote originated from associating everything with the Nordost name to expensive.
It is not established that cables make a difference. Given the choice between cable brands, you could spend your entire life changing cables and NEVER be happy with the sound you've got. Why? Because there are an almost infinite number of brands spread across the cable world, offering an almost infinite number of combinations across speaker cables, interconnects etc. The thought of people obsessively investigating these possibilities is slightly disturbing, and is costing them a fortune unnecessarily. If you are unhappy with your sound, look to your components, not your cables. Ensure the thickness of your cable is right for the distance between your amp and speakers and you're good to go.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable? Clearly, it's because it's good enough. If they felt more expensive cable would sell their products better, surely they would use it? Were you aware that within any set of speakers, there is copper wire that often runs to hundreds of feet? What effect do the gold-plated brass components have at either end of the speaker cable? (Banana plugs, binding posts etc.) Why are these never mentioned as candidates for replacement?
Have you investigated how human hearing works and why it is isn't consistent in the way it works? What about the psychacoustic nature of your hearing?
I'm sure you can tell that I am firmly in the sceptic camp. I noticed a cable thread here the other day entitled something like "Bah you sceptics my ears don't lie..." Well, guess what - they do.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable? Clearly, it's because it's good enough. If they felt more expensive cable would sell their products better, surely they would use it? Were you aware that within any set of speakers, there is copper wire that often runs to hundreds of feet? What effect do the gold-plated brass components have at either end of the speaker cable? (Banana plugs, binding posts etc.) Why are these never mentioned as candidates for replacement?
Have you investigated how human hearing works and why it is isn't consistent in the way it works? What about the psychacoustic nature of your hearing?
I'm sure you can tell that I am firmly in the sceptic camp. I noticed a cable thread here the other day entitled something like "Bah you sceptics my ears don't lie..." Well, guess what - they do.
To me, cable made a big difference.
I used run off the mill cable on my hi fi, then purchased a pair of Qed
Silver Ann and the difference made the hair on my arms stood on end the level
of detail was incredible.
I think if your speaker aren't positioned in the right manner then your not
going to get the best out off the cable. Now I'm not trying to say people
that think cable doesn't make a difference aren't setting up there speaker
correctly, but it could make a difference. Another thing that might make
a difference is the cost of your system, there's no point spending hundreds on
cable for a budget system,
Hope I'v not put fuel on the fire
I used run off the mill cable on my hi fi, then purchased a pair of Qed
Silver Ann and the difference made the hair on my arms stood on end the level
of detail was incredible.
I think if your speaker aren't positioned in the right manner then your not
going to get the best out off the cable. Now I'm not trying to say people
that think cable doesn't make a difference aren't setting up there speaker
correctly, but it could make a difference. Another thing that might make
a difference is the cost of your system, there's no point spending hundreds on
cable for a budget system,
Hope I'v not put fuel on the fire
dont follow the logic here
surely you should set up your speakers correctly to get the best out of them irrespective of what cable you use
youwill gain far more from correctly set up speakers than you ever will from cables and i accept speaker cables do make an small difference
surely you should set up your speakers correctly to get the best out of them irrespective of what cable you use
youwill gain far more from correctly set up speakers than you ever will from cables and i accept speaker cables do make an small difference
I have tried and owned a lot of cables: Nordost, VDH, AQ, cheap Monster, high end Monster (Sigma Retro), DH Labs, PS Audio, StraightWire, and others.
Cables do transmit the musical information in a different way. For me, it's not necessary to spend a fortune in cables (after all, it's just a cable! I don't care if they are cryogenic or oven baked, it's still just cables, and I think it's crazy to pay thousands of dollars for them), but it is absolutely necessary to choose the right cable to suit your taste and make your system sound right for you. It's not that a right cable can make such a big improvement in sound. It's just that a wrong cable can really make your system not enjoyable. So, in a sense, they are at the same time very important and not so important
. And the right cable can be a cheap one, that's for sure.
Cables are used to fine tune the system. You want extended HF and low noise fllor? You try a silver coated cable. You want a warm sound? you try a copper cable. You want speed and a lean balance? You try Nordost. You want bass? You try PS Audio. And so on.
But no cable is good for itself. They are just good in relation to the rest of the system. It's all about synergy.
IMHO.
Cables do transmit the musical information in a different way. For me, it's not necessary to spend a fortune in cables (after all, it's just a cable! I don't care if they are cryogenic or oven baked, it's still just cables, and I think it's crazy to pay thousands of dollars for them), but it is absolutely necessary to choose the right cable to suit your taste and make your system sound right for you. It's not that a right cable can make such a big improvement in sound. It's just that a wrong cable can really make your system not enjoyable. So, in a sense, they are at the same time very important and not so important
Cables are used to fine tune the system. You want extended HF and low noise fllor? You try a silver coated cable. You want a warm sound? you try a copper cable. You want speed and a lean balance? You try Nordost. You want bass? You try PS Audio. And so on.
But no cable is good for itself. They are just good in relation to the rest of the system. It's all about synergy.
IMHO.
Has Cable Lover come on to the forum just to drum up argument we wonder?
My ears don't lie fella, and neither do those of the magazine reviewers, who have no vested interest - they give as many bad reviews as good.
I, myself have also stated above that some cables have been disappointing, yet some have been superb. A Chord Chameleon IC was very very bassy compared to a vdh I'd been using.
And about the Nordost, they retail at just over £200, as I said I picked mine up for £74 on fleabay. It works, and it will cost me nothing as when the time comes I will sell it on. A great cable, which had more effect on my CDP than when used on an amp.
My ears don't lie fella, and neither do those of the magazine reviewers, who have no vested interest - they give as many bad reviews as good.
I, myself have also stated above that some cables have been disappointing, yet some have been superb. A Chord Chameleon IC was very very bassy compared to a vdh I'd been using.
And about the Nordost, they retail at just over £200, as I said I picked mine up for £74 on fleabay. It works, and it will cost me nothing as when the time comes I will sell it on. A great cable, which had more effect on my CDP than when used on an amp.
Yes my speakers are setup right, but that not to say everyone else
are. Some speaker need to be placed close to the wall some not, thing
like to small a room for the speakers, speakers to far a part, not
placed on an even surface. They could even be a bad match for the rest
of the system. All i'm saying is that cables on my system made a
noticable difference. There could be other factor why people dont
notice an improvement.
It's like tuning a sports car. If it not set up properly, you can put in high performance fuel and get a different result
are. Some speaker need to be placed close to the wall some not, thing
like to small a room for the speakers, speakers to far a part, not
placed on an even surface. They could even be a bad match for the rest
of the system. All i'm saying is that cables on my system made a
noticable difference. There could be other factor why people dont
notice an improvement.
It's like tuning a sports car. If it not set up properly, you can put in high performance fuel and get a different result
my experience (so far):
a huge difference between a cheap (out of the box) interconnect and one that costs between £30-£100 ...
very subtle changes between the more expensive ones (from £100 up to £220)
have not had the pleasure to test more expensive than £220 and using silver high breed coherence (which is pretty good for the price - on my system and soundstage also seems better to my ears)
speaker cable: I found on my system that van den hul was a more 'warmer' sounding with more bass and better treble than cheaper cables (currently using/testing silver high breed speaker cable and pretty good for the price)
a huge difference between a cheap (out of the box) interconnect and one that costs between £30-£100 ...
very subtle changes between the more expensive ones (from £100 up to £220)
have not had the pleasure to test more expensive than £220 and using silver high breed coherence (which is pretty good for the price - on my system and soundstage also seems better to my ears)
speaker cable: I found on my system that van den hul was a more 'warmer' sounding with more bass and better treble than cheaper cables (currently using/testing silver high breed speaker cable and pretty good for the price)
Cable Lover:
It is not established that cables make a difference.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable?
It is not established that the human ear can hear the differences between cables, that's true. It's hard to prove these kind of things. If you trust blind listening tests, you'll have to accept that usually the listeners cannot identify cables consistently. But it is also true that, in those same bling listening tests, most listeners cannot guess consistently which CDP or even which amp is playing!! And I suppose we all agree CDPs and amps do sound different.
As for measured differences in cables, these do exist. They all measure different regarding inductance, capacitance and resistance. There is even a guy who measured the waveforms transmited by different cables, and the waveforms were different from cable to cable (the info is somewhere in the net, if you want to check it).
So, I think even the most technical guy has to agree they do measure different. But it is hard to determine if the human ear can feel those differences.
But when you try a silver coated cable with bright speakers for some weeks, and your ears are bleeding, and you cannot bear it; you swap for a copper cable (even a bulk cable), and the HF edge is gone, and you feel a relief...you cannot doubt they sound different.
I systematically hear differences everytime I swap cables; they all have their sonic signatures. And I'm not only talking about frequency balance. They have their own way of handling dynamics, stereo imaging, etc. Some cables have a black background; others sound "light brown" (similar to the colour that paper cones have), etc.
As for what you say about speaker manufacturers:
- Tannoy uses VDH cabling inside their speakers.
- Epos uses DNM
- AE uses relatively expensive silver cables inside the AE1 MKIII
- MBL shows they ultra high end equipment with top of the line Transparent cables (ultra expensive)
Also, many high-end recording studios do use brand cables.
It is not established that cables make a difference.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable?
It is not established that the human ear can hear the differences between cables, that's true. It's hard to prove these kind of things. If you trust blind listening tests, you'll have to accept that usually the listeners cannot identify cables consistently. But it is also true that, in those same bling listening tests, most listeners cannot guess consistently which CDP or even which amp is playing!! And I suppose we all agree CDPs and amps do sound different.
As for measured differences in cables, these do exist. They all measure different regarding inductance, capacitance and resistance. There is even a guy who measured the waveforms transmited by different cables, and the waveforms were different from cable to cable (the info is somewhere in the net, if you want to check it).
So, I think even the most technical guy has to agree they do measure different. But it is hard to determine if the human ear can feel those differences.
But when you try a silver coated cable with bright speakers for some weeks, and your ears are bleeding, and you cannot bear it; you swap for a copper cable (even a bulk cable), and the HF edge is gone, and you feel a relief...you cannot doubt they sound different.
I systematically hear differences everytime I swap cables; they all have their sonic signatures. And I'm not only talking about frequency balance. They have their own way of handling dynamics, stereo imaging, etc. Some cables have a black background; others sound "light brown" (similar to the colour that paper cones have), etc.
As for what you say about speaker manufacturers:
- Tannoy uses VDH cabling inside their speakers.
- Epos uses DNM
- AE uses relatively expensive silver cables inside the AE1 MKIII
- MBL shows they ultra high end equipment with top of the line Transparent cables (ultra expensive)
Also, many high-end recording studios do use brand cables.
Tannoyite:Cable Lover:
It is not established that cables make a difference.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable?
But it is also true that, in those same bling listening tests...
"Jangle jangle jewellery jewellery, I think thats a Cartier...Much brighter than the Bvlgari..."
It is not established that cables make a difference.
IMHO the very best thing you could do is start thinking about what the professionals do. Why is it that at hi-fi shows Harbeth, who make speakers for the BBC, use 79 strand speaker cable at £1.20/m? (They don't bi-wire either despite the facility being available, and leave the brass links in that are so despised by audiophiles). Why do PMC use Van Damme cable? They clearly want to show their products at their best, so why use "cheap" cable?
But it is also true that, in those same bling listening tests...
"Jangle jangle jewellery jewellery, I think thats a Cartier...Much brighter than the Bvlgari..."
If one thinks cables dont make a difference, one should test DNM Reson vs. Tara Labs Omni 2 speaker cables. That test shows just how big a difference can be achieved just by changing cables that cost the same . Easy test that shows one who is a non-believer must be deaf.
That's it.
That's it.
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