Cable choice PMC/Cyrus

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Just wondering if anyone in the know can help me with speaker cable choice.

I have PMC twenty 23 speakers with Cyrus electronics (pre QX dac, x power, stream x2 and PSX-R power supplies). I'm currently using Atlas Hyper 2.0 which I like a lot for musicality, not too much bass and detail. I was using 4mm Naim NAC A4 cable which I didn't like because it was giving too much bass and overall musical presentation wasn't therfore great.

I am thinking of a copper stranded cable, only 2.0 mm to keep bass the same. My current cable is only £20 per metre and I have two 2m runs for each speaker. As the speakers are over £2k and I'm spending under £100 on speaker cables, I reckon I'm not probably using the best cable to get the best out of the speakers and electronics. Am I right? I'm thinking of Atlas Ascent 2.0 cable but the jump up is around £600. I don't want silver coated cable as PMC recommend copper only and I read that this changes the sound somewhat and I don't want to do this!

 

[d_a_n1979]

Tellurium Q Blue... Can't recommend it highly enough...

Chord Odyssey is superb cable also

 

[Anderson]

Wire is wire, it doesn't have sound, it can't make the bass more fat, taught, airy or fairy. It can't make the soundstage wider or give more depth. Its dumb, its metal and its cable.

By the sounds of it you've spent far too much on cable already, save your cash and buy some music. Any difference you've heard swapping cables is the result of expectation bias, HiFi cable 'manufactures' rely on this effect so that people keep recommending their over priced cables.

Speaking of manufacturing, who do you think makes these special cables because its certainly not the HIFI companies, no. This would fall down to large multinational manufactures who churn out hundreds of kilometres of wire a day. You've then got all this bog standard boring cable getting shipped out to middle men distributors and manufacturing companies who can do the custom sleeving. Our middle men manufacturers will take an order for say something like Terilium Blue, then add that fancy bling slieve and all of a sudden you've got HIFI speaker cable at £20+ per metre. What may not seen obvious is that this same cable that was HIFI wrapped could just as early went on to become the basis for cheap as chips mains extension leads, the only difference is the wrap.

 

[ID.]

Oh wait. The multiple cable threads that tied up the forum for days have slipped off the front page. Time for another cable thread and several spinoff and parody threads.

I don't want silver coated cable as PMC recommend copper only

What PMC actually recommends

PMC recommend using a high quality thick multi-strand Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) cable between the amplifier and speakers. The use of ‘exotic” cables has limited improvement on sound quality, so we would not advocate spending great quantities of money.

This doesn't mean don't use cables that have other materials, it means just use cheap good quality copper cable of a decent thickness because pricier cables are unlikely to make a difference.

So even your current cables stray well outside this.

Or if you want to ignore that or intrepret it selectively

Oyaide Tunami Nigo

These cables have good bass while maintaining high levels of detail. Very smooth and musical. I highly recommend them.

 

[andyjm]

No criticism of the O/P, I am sure this is what an 'expert' (probably trying to sell him the next cable upgrade) told him.

If there is any real criticism, it is of an eductation system that launches individuals into a highly technical world without a basic grasp of what is going on around them. GCSE physics should have enough basic electrical theory to question whether silver plating a few thou' thick on the outside of a cable is going to have any effect or not (it doesn't).

To quote Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Unfortunately in a world where the majority don't understand even the basics, I guess it all looks like magic and then 'magic cables' seem perfectly reasonable.

 

[pauln]

I don't want silver coated cable as PMC recommend copper only

If you Google "what hifi forums cables" you will find that everything has been said a thousand times already.

 

[drummerman]

I am using Naim cabling in both my systems, one of which is a cyrus but imo you can't go far wrong with good quality silver plated copper in a PTFE sleeve.

Silver is a better conductor, it's applied where it matters more (circumference) and it retains its conductivity even when tarnished.

PTFE is a good Dielectric.

Mind you, carbon (graphene) is an even better conductor so VandenHull may be on to something ...

... so I personally would vote VDH's CS122 Hybrid cable which incorporates most of the above

Have fun boys

 

[andyjm]

I am using Naim cabling in both my systems, one of which is a cyrus but imo you can't go far wrong with good quality silver plated copper in a PTFE sleeve.

Silver is a better conductor, it's applied where it matters more (circumference) and it retains its conductivity even when tarnished.

PTFE is a good dielectric.

Have fun boys

You see, it all sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Silver is undeniably a better conductor than copper (by volume, aluminium is a better conductor by weight). PTFE makes an excellent dielectric, and is used in many high frequency applications.

However, a questioning man might ask:

How thick is the silver? Given that thickness, the limited skin effect even at 20KHz, and the relatively similar conductivity of silver and copper, will that be audible? (No)

Given the very low source, cable and sink impedances of an amp / cable / loudspeaker system and relatively short lengths of cable, what effect will changing the dielectric between the conductors make at audio frequencies? (None).

I see this technique a lot in cable adverts, a perfectly valid statement, which is then used to justify a perfectly invalid conclusion.

Dont take my word for it, the answer to all this is to do some maths. If your 'O' levels are a long time ago, there are a number of studies on the web that do just that, calculate the change from differing cables. As I have banged on at length, about the only thing that matters is resistance (length and thickness).

 

[drummerman]

I am using Naim cabling in both my systems, one of which is a cyrus but imo you can't go far wrong with good quality silver plated copper in a PTFE sleeve.

Silver is a better conductor, it's applied where it matters more (circumference) and it retains its conductivity even when tarnished.

PTFE is a good dielectric.

Have fun boys

You see, it all sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Silver is undeniably a better conductor than copper (by volume, aluminium is a better conductor by weight). PTFE makes an excellent dielectric, and is used in many high frequency applications.

However, a questioning man might ask:

How thick is the silver? Given that thickness, the limited skin effect even at 20KHz, and the relatively similar conductivity of silver and copper, will that be audible? (No)

Given the very low source, cable and sink impedances of an amp / cable / loudspeaker system and relatively short lengths of cable, what effect will changing the dielectric between the conductors make at audio frequencies? (None).

I see this technique a lot in cable adverts, a perfectly valid statement, which is then used to justify a perfectly invalid conclusion.

Dont take my word for it, the answer to all this is to do some maths. If your 'O' levels are a long time ago, there are a number of studies on the web that do just that, calculate the change from differing cables. As I have banged on at length, about the only thing that matters is resistance (length and thickness).

I'd rather go with the VDH CS122 Hybrid ...

Happy Sunday everrrryone x

 

[Anderson]

I am using Naim cabling in both my systems, one of which is a cyrus but imo you can't go far wrong with good quality silver plated copper in a PTFE sleeve.

Silver is a better conductor, it's applied where it matters more (circumference) and it retains its conductivity even when tarnished.

PTFE is a good dielectric.

Have fun boys

You see, it all sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Silver is undeniably a better conductor than copper (by volume, aluminium is a better conductor by weight). PTFE makes an excellent dielectric, and is used in many high frequency applications.

However, a questioning man might ask:

How thick is the silver? Given that thickness, the limited skin effect even at 20KHz, and the relatively similar conductivity of silver and copper, will that be audible? (No)

Given the very low source, cable and sink impedances of an amp / cable / loudspeaker system and relatively short lengths of cable, what effect will changing the dielectric between the conductors make at audio frequencies? (None).

I see this technique a lot in cable adverts, a perfectly valid statement, which is then used to justify a perfectly invalid conclusion.

Dont take my word for it, the answer to all this is to do some maths. If your 'O' levels are a long time ago, there are a number of studies on the web that do just that, calculate the change from differing cables. As I have banged on at length, about the only thing that matters is resistance (length and thickness).

I'd rather go with the VDH CS122 Hybrid ...

Happy Sunday everrrryone x

You're recommending a cable of 3mm2 @ £20 per metre, he uses 2 metres per side. His current cable is 2mm2, you're literally recommending he spend £80 for something that will have NO effect on the sound of his system. Do you not see the madness in what you're doing?

You could have recommended something like Van Dam me Concert Grade 6mm2 @ £5 per metre, pure copper conductor used in the pro audio world. Completely over specified for his needs and the distances he using (2 metres per side). More importantly though would cost 14 of the price.

To be fair, no one should be recommending an upgrade, there isn't any need, there can LITERALLY be no performance benefit gained by switching cables at the distances he using.

 

[davedotco]

No criticism of the O/P, I am sure this is what an 'expert' (probably trying to sell him the next cable upgrade) told him.

If there is any real criticism, it is of an eductation system that launches individuals into a highly technical world without a basic grasp of what is going on around them. GCSE physics should have enough basic electrical theory to question whether silver plating a few thou' thick on the outside of a cable is going to have any effect or not (it doesn't).

To quote Arthur C Clarke "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Unfortunately in a world where the majority don't understand even the basics, I guess it all looks like magic and then 'magic cables' seem perfectly reasonable.

Clarke knew a lot about hi-fi, my favourite among his quotes is....

"The hi-fi system is not only stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think".

 

[chebby]

Follow PMC's advice ...

http://pmc-speakers.com/support/faq-page/what-speaker-cable-should-i-use

... no need for exotic or expensive cables.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

Drummerman, it's quite a coincidence we both have Cyrus systems and have noticed that Van Den Hul works well in combination.

I have VDH hybrid interconnects between a Qute HD and an 8XPdQX .... also between a DAC XP Signature and 2 X powers. To my ears they were made for each other.

I tried carbon VDH interconnects but noticed hum on the amp connections and whistle from the Qute HD. I now use these VDH Carbon as digital coaxial with great results. But I've been put off using carbon in analogue connections.

Getting back to the speaker cable thread, I haven't tried VDH with Cyrus. I was offered 4m end-of-real Teatrack discounted but I still couldn't justify the price. I connect PMC twenty22 with some Monitor Audio Pureflow biwire. It all sounds fab and I just don't see any point spending again.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you like how your system sounds, don't be in too big a rush to change things.....but if curiosity gets the better of you, borrow (or at least have the option to return) some Atlas Ascent or TQ (I'd go with the Black); and see if you think it's worth the expenditure.

You won't get a "Yes/No" answer on here, so you will just have to make up your own mind on this one.

 

[Anderson]

 

[bluebrazil]

i am using some old mission/cyrus solid copper core speaker cables that can be had for peanuts.

cyrus used to always recommend solid core and thats what their own interconnects were made of.

 

[drummerman]

I am using Naim cabling in both my systems, one of which is a cyrus but imo you can't go far wrong with good quality silver plated copper in a PTFE sleeve.

Silver is a better conductor, it's applied where it matters more (circumference) and it retains its conductivity even when tarnished.

PTFE is a good dielectric.

Have fun boys

You see, it all sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Silver is undeniably a better conductor than copper (by volume, aluminium is a better conductor by weight). PTFE makes an excellent dielectric, and is used in many high frequency applications.

However, a questioning man might ask:

How thick is the silver? Given that thickness, the limited skin effect even at 20KHz, and the relatively similar conductivity of silver and copper, will that be audible? (No)

Given the very low source, cable and sink impedances of an amp / cable / loudspeaker system and relatively short lengths of cable, what effect will changing the dielectric between the conductors make at audio frequencies? (None).

I see this technique a lot in cable adverts, a perfectly valid statement, which is then used to justify a perfectly invalid conclusion.

Dont take my word for it, the answer to all this is to do some maths. If your 'O' levels are a long time ago, there are a number of studies on the web that do just that, calculate the change from differing cables. As I have banged on at length, about the only thing that matters is resistance (length and thickness).

I'd rather go with the VDH CS122 Hybrid ...

Happy Sunday everrrryone x

You're recommending a cable of 3mm2 @ £20 per metre, he uses 2 metres per side. His current cable is 2mm2, you're literally recommending he spend £80 for something that will have NO effect on the sound of his system. Do you not see the madness in what you're doing?

You could have recommended something like Van Dam me Concert Grade 6mm2 @ £5 per metre, pure copper conductor used in the pro audio world. Completely over specified for his needs and the distances he using (2 metres per side). More importantly though would cost 14 of the price.

To be fair, no one should be recommending an upgrade, there isn't any need, there can LITERALLY be no performance benefit gained by switching cables at the distances he using.

'Ear we go again ...

That's fine. You two stick to your 'power cord or clothes hanger cum speaker cables'

Don't mind if I suggest something slightly different.

Anyways, £20/m is hardly exotic or elaborate in a context of a system that costs £2k+ me thinks.

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

See, now you're just getting our hopes up!

 

[drummerman]

See, now you're just getting our hopes up!

Funny if (only) slightly cruel.

He only means well even if the rhetorics are becoming somewhat tiresome on occasions.

Still, freedom of speach and all that plus it is his crusade ... . Oddly enough that reminds me of someone irish ...

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

Oddly enough that reminds me of someone irish ...

You mean...

?

 

[drummerman]

Oddly enough that reminds me of someone irish ...

You mean...

?

No. There used to be a young chap on here that took it up on himself to declare war on everything he perceived to be foo/snake oil.

In all fairness to Anderson, he is nowhere near as dedicated (yet) and his opinion, in this case 'different speaker cables make no difference' is as valid as mine.

What get's me is when the 'non-believers' attack every opinion instead of just saying once what they think.

After all, I only suggested the VDH cable in reply to the OP's question ...

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Thanks for all your constructive comments. The comments about borrowing before you buy are definitely spot on I think, and this is what I did when I swapped cables over. I did get a massive difference in the musical presentation between the naim NAC A5 cable, which I didn't like, and the Atlas Hyper 2.0 cable. Whatever the technical differences, if it makes an approvement either in sound or the type of sound within a price you are prepared to pay, it's worth going for. The naim cable was not great for my ears, compared to the hyper cable, and is more expensive. This is because in my set up it seemed to bring out the main sound inherent in the track at the expense of musical presentation - so in a bass heavy piece of music the instrumentation was slightly lost, similarly a track with a vocal with limited instrumentation. It was a better clearer vocal to the hyper but the hyper has toned the vocal down a bit and you can hear all other instruments, making a better presentation overall.

 

[abacus]

Thanks for all your constructive comments. The comments about borrowing before you buy are definitely spot on I think, and this is what I did when I swapped cables over. I did get a massive difference in the musical presentation between the naim NAC A5 cable, which I didn't like, and the Atlas Hyper 2.0 cable. Whatever the technical differences, if it makes an approvement either in sound or the type of sound within a price you are prepared to pay, it's worth going for. The naim cable was not great for my ears, compared to the hyper cable, and is more expensive. This is because in my set up it seemed to bring out the main sound inherent in the track at the expense of musical presentation - so in a bass heavy piece of music the instrumentation was slightly lost, similarly a track with a vocal with limited instrumentation. It was a better clearer vocal to the hyper but the hyper has toned the vocal down a bit and you can hear all other instruments, making a better presentation overall.

Glad you have found something you like.

Out of curiosity did you compare the cables using the double blind test, or did you just change them and then listen, adding this information would benefit others who are in the same situation.

Enjoy your music

Bill

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

No. There used to be a young chap on here that took it up on himself to declare war on everything he perceived to be foo/snake oil.

Now it seems there's a very vocal cadre of them, apparently determined to reshape everyone in their own image.

 

[cheeseboy]

No. There used to be a young chap on here that took it up on himself to declare war on everything he perceived to be foo/snake oil.

Now it seems there's a very vocal cadre of them, apparently determined to reshape everyone in their own image.

meh, there's just as bad on both sides.

IMHO it would be foolish to not accept that there is a lot of snake oil salespeople/companies within the realm of hifi, otherwise the likes of the Brilliant Pebbles and Brilliant Clocks would not exist. Even the CEO of audioquest publicy stated "Honestly, AudioQuest is a marketing company, not an engineering company"

IMHO the only reason that the tide seems to be changing is that in the digital realm one can categorically prove differences/no differences unlike previously, and that's starting to show up quite a lot of companies/magazines etc who claim differences, even if there is undesputable evidence to contradict that.