ATC SCM11

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Will a Rega Brio R be enough to drive ATC SCM11? :wall:

I've read a lot of reviews about the Brio R and the most part of them agree that is capable to drive demanding speakers.

8ohm speakers are a plus as the Brio R warms a bit with 4ohm loads.

Mr BenLaw i would like your opinion on this one, as all other members! :type:

cheers

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw

SCM11 monitors will benefit from even higher quality of amplification however in the meantime the Brio-R has got the quality and (as long as you're not after constant disco like playback levels) quantity of power to be paired with SCM11 monitors.

Btw, SCM11's impedance (as with all other Entry Series passive monitors) does not fall below 5.5 ohms.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw

SCM11 monitors will benefit from even higher quality of amplification however in the meantime the Brio-R has got the quality and (as long as you're not after constant disco like playback levels) quantity of power to be paired with SCM11 monitors.

Btw, SCM11's impedance (as with all other Entry Series passive monitors) does not fall below 5.5 ohms.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Musicraft

thanks for the prompt answer.

My everyday playback is quite normal, with my NAD i don't pass 12 o'clock.

 

[plastic penguin]

Looking at the Rega's specs it should drive ATCs to decent levels, but it'll hinge on how loud you like to play music. For a speaker that's a sweeter all-rounder, especially at idling levels, look elsewhere.

 

[Frank Harvey]

My everyday playback is quite normal, with my NAD i don't pass 12 o'clock.

The 12 o'clock position is generally an amplifier's comfortable max output. Ideally you want a little in reserve...

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Looking at the Rega's specs it should drive ATCs to decent levels, but it'll hinge on how loud you like to play music. For a speaker that's a sweeter all-rounder, especially at idling levels, look elsewhere.

Thank's PP, It will be for normal volume levels, what i want the most is detail, transparency and accuracy in reproduction, and lets not forget a tight bass!

 

[BenLaw]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I'm afraid that, whilst I have a lot of experience with the 11s, I have no experience with the Brio R. 2 points tho - (i) Musicraft carries both lines and Rick is a top expert on ATC, so you can trust his opinion on them, (ii) whilst ATC have a relatively low impedance (the significance of which is in any event IMO overstated given the use of 'the first watt') they are a benign, stable load. So in fact most amps can drive them happily, if not to the highest extremes of volume, especially a quality amp such as the Rega.

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

 

[BenLaw]

Looking at the Rega's specs it should drive ATCs to decent levels, but it'll hinge on how loud you like to play music. For a speaker that's a sweeter all-rounder, especially at idling levels, look elsewhere.

Thank's PP, It will be for normal volume levels, what i want the most is detail, transparency and accuracy in reproduction, and lets not forget a tight bass!

Those are four of the ATCs greatest qualities Add separation, texture, tonal consistency and lifelike midrange and you're just about there

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw

SCM11 monitors will benefit from even higher quality of amplification however in the meantime the Brio-R has got the quality and (as long as you're not after constant disco like playback levels) quantity of power to be paired with SCM11 monitors.

Btw, SCM11's impedance (as with all other Entry Series passive monitors) does not fall below 5.5 ohms.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Musicraft

thanks for the prompt answer.

My everyday playback is quite normal, with my NAD i don't pass 12 o'clock.

Hi Hi-FiOuttlaw

Your welcome.

Fwiw, i've used and have got clients who use the 3020 with SCM40 monitors. Therefore in comparision the Brio-R will take SCM11 monitors in its stride.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I'm afraid that, whilst I have a lot of experience with the 11s, I have no experience with the Brio R. 2 points tho - (i) Musicraft carries both lines and Rick is a top expert on ATC, so you can trust his opinion on them, (ii) whilst ATC have a relatively low impedance (the significance of which is in any event IMO overstated given the use of 'the first watt') they are a benign, stable load. So in fact most amps can drive them happily, if not to the highest extremes of volume, especially a quality amp such as the Rega.

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

Hi BenLaw, your input is quite important for me, i knew that you were experient with the SCM11.

As soon as the Brio R is run in i will be starting my demo's, and for demo the ATC i've to drive 300km but i'll for sure.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

Oh dear, Ben...

I've mentioned this so many times, IME, albeit fairly limited, ATC make some very good speakers, but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting. The perfect example was when I heard them with Nait 5i amp and Cyrus CD6SE, around 10 o'clock they came alive and were wonderful. Below that, however, compared Ruark Sabre III, they sounded a little sterile, to my ears.

This is why I wouldn't describe them as all-rounders. To me that term means competent at ALL levels (at this very moment I'm watching Charlotte Gray, without disturbing little'un or the neighbours).

ATC started life producing studio monitors... still retain those traits today. So if you live in a studio, you're rockin'.

 

[chebby]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

Although I am not a fan...

Here are Streophile's measurements of the ATC SCM11...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

... the comments are quite illuminating. It seems members of their review team had no difficulty driving them with an Arcam Solo-Mini (25 watts per channel) and Peachtree Nova. This was ascribed to the SCM11s generally easy load. (PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

As I said, I'm not a fan. That's after many, many hours (hundreds now) listening to SCM11s and a Primare i30 with various sources from analogue (Rega P3) to iPlayer (CA Dacmagic connected via optical digital and balanced analogue) and a range of material from light and symphonic classical to Dan le Sac & Scroobius Pip and most things in between.

I found them over-harsh (except when playing CDs on a Rega Apollo) when playing loud and 'ordinary' at low volume levels. But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste. I never got around to trying them with my old Naim system. Who knows? They might have been to my liking in my room and system.

I would ban the use of the words 'monitor' and 'studio' when naming domestic hi-fi speakers. It gets everyone all panty-bunched over something that has absolutely no relevance to playing music in the home. But they all do it don't they?

Oh, PP, some of the best speakers I have ever owned in the last 30 years were sealed cabinet designs. It has zip to do with performance at lower/low volumes.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi chebby

Fwiw, i got clients who are also using Solo Mini with SCM40 monitors

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

Although I am not a fan...

Here are Streophile's measurements of the ATC SCM11...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

... the comments are quite illuminating. It seems members of their review team had no difficulty driving them with an Arcam Solo-Mini (25 watts per channel) and Peachtree Nova. This was ascribed to the SCM11s generally easy load. (PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

As I said, I'm not a fan. That's after many, many hours (hundreds now) listening to SCM11s and a Primare i30 with various sources from analogue (Rega P3) to iPlayer (CA Dacmagic connected via optical digital and balanced analogue) and a range of material from light and symphonic classical to Dan le Sac & Scroobius Pip and most things in between.

I found them over-harsh (except when playing CDs on a Rega Apollo) when playing loud and 'ordinary' at low volume levels. But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste. I never got around to trying them with my old Naim system. Who knows? They might have been to my liking in my room and system.

I would ban the use of the words 'monitor' and 'studio' when naming domestic hi-fi speakers. It gets everyone all panty-bunched over something that has absolutely no relevance to playing music in the home. But they all do it don't they?

Oh, PP, some of the best speakers I have ever owned in the last 30 years were sealed cabinet designs. It has zip to do with performance at lower/low volumes.

Thanks Chebby for your post, i've read the Stereophile review and was encouraging for me!

Cheers

 

[plastic penguin]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

Although I am not a fan...

Here are Streophile's measurements of the ATC SCM11...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

... the comments are quite illuminating. It seems members of their review team had no difficulty driving them with an Arcam Solo-Mini (25 watts per channel) and Peachtree Nova. This was ascribed to the SCM11s generally easy load. (PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

As I said, I'm not a fan. That's after many, many hours (hundreds now) listening to SCM11s and a Primare i30 with various sources from analogue (Rega P3) to iPlayer (CA Dacmagic connected via optical digital and balanced analogue) and a range of material from light and symphonic classical to Dan le Sac & Scroobius Pip and most things in between.

I found them over-harsh (except when playing CDs on a Rega Apollo) when playing loud and 'ordinary' at low volume levels. But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste. I never got around to trying them with my old Naim system. Who knows? They might have been to my liking in my room and system.

I would ban the use of the words 'monitor' and 'studio' when naming domestic hi-fi speakers. It gets everyone all panty-bunched over something that has absolutely no relevance to playing music in the home. But they all do it don't they?

Oh, PP, some of the best speakers I have ever owned in the last 30 years were sealed cabinet designs. It has zip to do with performance at lower/low volumes.

Yup, but you are quoting 'paper specs'... I don't have 'paper spec' ears. There are far more speakers with easier loads, ones that doesn't push a amp into meltdown.

Yeah, sealed speakers are good - I've also owned old Solavox and Wharfedales from the 70s that were sealed. Still for my taste i.e. listening to music at idling levels at unearthly hours of the morning, ported speakers are the better option.

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

Oh dear, Ben...

I've mentioned this so many times, IME, albeit fairly limited, ATC make some very good speakers, but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting. The perfect example was when I heard them with Nait 5i amp and Cyrus CD6SE, around 10 o'clock they came alive and were wonderful. Below that, however, compared Ruark Sabre III, they sounded a little sterile, to my ears.

This is why I wouldn't describe them as all-rounders. To me that term means competent at ALL levels (at this very moment I'm watching Charlotte Gray, without disturbing little'un or the neighbours).

ATC started life producing studio monitors... still retain those traits today. So if you live in a studio, you're rockin'.

In your opinion what would be the speaker with the sound signature of SCM11, and competent at ALL levels?

 

[Frank Harvey]

The Peachtree Novas is rated at 80wpc, so I would assume it would have some sort of ability when driving speakers that are of a lower sensitivity. The Arcam Solo Mini, like it's bigger brother, has always been good at driving awkward loads. I think sometimes using 'small' box examples gives the impression that some speakers are easier to drive.

Sealed speakers do generally need to be driven more to get them to sound more exciting, which sort of mirrors their lower efficiency. Their advantage is at higher volumes, where their lack of reflex port doesn't add in possible issues or perceived colorations.

 

[chebby]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

Although I am not a fan...

Here are Streophile's measurements of the ATC SCM11...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

... the comments are quite illuminating. It seems members of their review team had no difficulty driving them with an Arcam Solo-Mini (25 watts per channel) and Peachtree Nova. This was ascribed to the SCM11s generally easy load. (PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

As I said, I'm not a fan. That's after many, many hours (hundreds now) listening to SCM11s and a Primare i30 with various sources from analogue (Rega P3) to iPlayer (CA Dacmagic connected via optical digital and balanced analogue) and a range of material from light and symphonic classical to Dan le Sac & Scroobius Pip and most things in between.

I found them over-harsh (except when playing CDs on a Rega Apollo) when playing loud and 'ordinary' at low volume levels. But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste. I never got around to trying them with my old Naim system. Who knows? They might have been to my liking in my room and system.

I would ban the use of the words 'monitor' and 'studio' when naming domestic hi-fi speakers. It gets everyone all panty-bunched over something that has absolutely no relevance to playing music in the home. But they all do it don't they?

Oh, PP, some of the best speakers I have ever owned in the last 30 years were sealed cabinet designs. It has zip to do with performance at lower/low volumes.

Yup, but you are quoting 'paper specs'... I don't have 'paper spec' ears.

You must have if you make comments about a speaker's "less than benevolent impedance" then extrapolate your assumptions from it.

(Either that, or you are quoting a paper spec too.)

As I said earlier, my opinion is based on hundreds of hours listening (to the SCM11s) and it only reflects my tastes of that particular set of speakers in that system. I would not dare to suggest that sealed cabinet speakers are somehow, inherently, deficient at low volume levels. My experience tells me otherwise.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

Oh dear, Ben...

I've mentioned this so many times, IME, albeit fairly limited, ATC make some very good speakers, but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting. The perfect example was when I heard them with Nait 5i amp and Cyrus CD6SE, around 10 o'clock they came alive and were wonderful. Below that, however, compared Ruark Sabre III, they sounded a little sterile, to my ears.

This is why I wouldn't describe them as all-rounders. To me that term means competent at ALL levels (at this very moment I'm watching Charlotte Gray, without disturbing little'un or the neighbours).

ATC started life producing studio monitors... still retain those traits today. So if you live in a studio, you're rockin'.

In your opinion what would be the speaker with the sound signature of SCM11, and competent at ALL levels?

There probably isn't a speaker that replicates ATC's signature in its entirety. But then my personal preference is for a slightly coloured sound...

If you're asking which speakers I prefer over the ATCs, then PMC, Focal, Totem, MA GX100... all fall into that bracket.

 

[plastic penguin]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

Although I am not a fan...

Here are Streophile's measurements of the ATC SCM11...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements

... the comments are quite illuminating. It seems members of their review team had no difficulty driving them with an Arcam Solo-Mini (25 watts per channel) and Peachtree Nova. This was ascribed to the SCM11s generally easy load. (PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

As I said, I'm not a fan. That's after many, many hours (hundreds now) listening to SCM11s and a Primare i30 with various sources from analogue (Rega P3) to iPlayer (CA Dacmagic connected via optical digital and balanced analogue) and a range of material from light and symphonic classical to Dan le Sac & Scroobius Pip and most things in between.

I found them over-harsh (except when playing CDs on a Rega Apollo) when playing loud and 'ordinary' at low volume levels. But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste. I never got around to trying them with my old Naim system. Who knows? They might have been to my liking in my room and system.

I would ban the use of the words 'monitor' and 'studio' when naming domestic hi-fi speakers. It gets everyone all panty-bunched over something that has absolutely no relevance to playing music in the home. But they all do it don't they?

Oh, PP, some of the best speakers I have ever owned in the last 30 years were sealed cabinet designs. It has zip to do with performance at lower/low volumes.

Yup, but you are quoting 'paper specs'... I don't have 'paper spec' ears.

You must have if you make comments about a speaker's "less than benevolent impedance" then extrapolate your assumptions from it.

(Either that, or you are quoting a paper spec too.)

As I said earlier, my opinion is based on hundreds of hours listening (to the SCM11s) and it only reflects my tastes of that particular set of speakers in that system. I would not dare to suggest that sealed cabinet speakers are somehow, inherently, deficient at low volume levels. My experience tells me otherwise.

That's fine - I can only comment on my personal experiences. In addition, I've always said I take very little notice of the spec sheet and let my ears decide; so I've decided that ATCs do not tick all my personal boxes. And WHFI have commented many times in the past about ATCs needing a 'gutsy' amp to hear them at their best.

 

[BenLaw]

Apologies in advance to Hi-FIOutlaw for responding now to a few of these posts, but it frustrates me when people talk down ATC on spurious grounds, usually when they don't know what they're talking about.

Hi Hi-FiOutlaw,

I don't quite understand PP's comment as IMO 'sweet' and 'all rounder' are different concepts. IMO ATC is the ultimate all rounder because it delivers to you the sound of your source and electronics. If those are to your liking, you'll like the result - every time I wouldn't call them 'sweet' tho as that implies to me some sort of sugar coating. ATC's flat frequency response means there is no bass and treble boost, so at lower volumes they can sound rather different from what many people are used to.

For all these reasons, a demo is always recommended if possible

Cheers,

Ben

Oh dear, Ben...

I've mentioned this so many times, IME, albeit fairly limited, ATC make some very good speakers, but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting. The perfect example was when I heard them with Nait 5i amp and Cyrus CD6SE, around 10 o'clock they came alive and were wonderful. Below that, however, compared Ruark Sabre III, they sounded a little sterile, to my ears.

This is why I wouldn't describe them as all-rounders. To me that term means competent at ALL levels (at this very moment I'm watching Charlotte Gray, without disturbing little'un or the neighbours).

ATC started life producing studio monitors... still retain those traits today. So if you live in a studio, you're rockin'.

PP, please don't condescend me with 'oh dear' as if you are intimating I have committed some sort of inadvertent booboo. You should know better than now.

Is your 'fairly limited' experience still limited to your session at WHF? How many minutes would you say you listened to the 11s for?

We may have somewhat different definitions of 'all rounders'. As already stated, mine means they produce all types of music well, consistently with how it has been recorded. Yours is at all levels of volume; unfortunately your conclusions are wrong. It is right to say (as I put in my first post) that a flat frequencu response will appear to have lower bass at low volume. This can only be counteracted with a boost to the bass. That boost cannot go away, so a speaker that has larger apparent bass at low volumes will then have excessive bass at higher volumes. Those IMO are not all rounders.

I use my 11s for several hours a day. I listen almost exclusively at low to moderate volume (at this very moment I'm watching Great British Bake Off, without disturbing little'un or the neighbours). They sound marvellous and bear all the qualities that the OP is after.

Your comment about living in a studio is lame in the extreme. They suit anyone after a neutral, accurate sound, in a domestic environment. I do not live in a studio. WHF has made them best speaker in their price range (and recently up to £1500 IIRC) for 6 years, I believe.

Btw 'Benevolent' does not mean what you think it does / what you are trying to say.

 

[BenLaw]

...but due to their less than benevolent impedence and dbs (sealed box to boot), if you need to play at low level (8 o'clock on the dial) or below they are found wanting.

(PP, your MA RS6s actually dip lower - to 4.5 Ohms minimum - than the ATCs do, so your 'less than benevolent' comment is a bit exaggerated.)

Thank you Chebby. Although PP is not one to be blinded by facts.

However, they were measured to be less sensitive than quoted (nearer 82dB than 85dB) so a higher powered amp is sensible if you want to push them.

Agreed, and what Rick and I have both said.

As I said, I'm not a fan. . . .But the owner loves them so this is really down to taste.

Fair enough. I have a similar combo to your friend and don't reach the same conclusions as you. Given what the OP has said he is looking for they seem to me a must audition.

 

[BenLaw]

Yup, but you are quoting 'paper specs'... I don't have 'paper spec' ears.

No, but you're ignoring the facts that your MAs are arguably harder to drive. What makes you say the ATCs are harder (when they're not)?

I agree you're not one to go on 'paper specs', you enjoy spouting as much subjectivism as possible, based on very little experience. You described your room acoustics as 'lush' yesterday, what on earth does that mean and what are you basing it on?

There are far more speakers with easier loads, ones that doesn't push a amp into meltdown.

Meltdown? What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

[plastic penguin]

Yes, I do have limited experience with ATCs, which should speak volumes. The reason I've only had a couple of short dems and no more... work it out for yourself.

Again, regards my room and being lush: Heavy curtains, a proper sofa (not wicker type), bookcases, wallpaper and good quality curtains, approx. 12" from left speaker... no exposed flooring or any object you could describe as reflective, so how would you term the room?

You reckon my old 40 watt amp would find the ATCs easier to drive than the MAs? Yeah, I breed pink badgers...

 

[CnoEvil]

I breed pink badgers...

If they are not being culled at the moment (and are TB free), I'll take one! :twisted: