Quick update on the 651 and DVD upscaling.
I had a tinker and tested a good dozen DVDs tonight. (Obviously not the whole films, just selected scenes.) The 651's upscaling abilities range from outstanding to variable, depending on the quality of the source.
When playing a well mastered DVD, the 651 does a phenomenal job; at times you could be forgiven for thinking you were watching a BD.
With poorly mastered titles, however, the results are less impressive. At times it seems too much processing is going on. The Marvell upscaling introduces obvious artifacts. It's clear that Marvell processing can only do so much; and the 651's efforts to add definition occasionally create problems when the source material isn't up to scratch.
For instance, in the opening scene of In the Bedroom, Marisa Tomei runs across a wheatfield wearing a flower patterned dress. The dress broke up into strange lines when the 651 was upscaling the image. It's not the best DVD in terms of mastering; and the 651 struggled to reproduce this sequence perfectly. Other scenes in this film looked very good, however, and clearly better than outputting at native resolution.
I concluded that Marvell processing should be used selectively. With poorly mastered titles, it's probably better to output at 576i. Detail and depth are sacrificed for a more stable picture, but I preferred my VT65's upscaling under such circumstances. However, the 651 really breathes life into well mastered DVDs and clearly outperforms the VT65. I'm not sure I'd want to sacrifice this performance.
I'll contemplate whether the 651 is worth the outlay during the next week...
I had a tinker and tested a good dozen DVDs tonight. (Obviously not the whole films, just selected scenes.) The 651's upscaling abilities range from outstanding to variable, depending on the quality of the source.
When playing a well mastered DVD, the 651 does a phenomenal job; at times you could be forgiven for thinking you were watching a BD.
With poorly mastered titles, however, the results are less impressive. At times it seems too much processing is going on. The Marvell upscaling introduces obvious artifacts. It's clear that Marvell processing can only do so much; and the 651's efforts to add definition occasionally create problems when the source material isn't up to scratch.
For instance, in the opening scene of In the Bedroom, Marisa Tomei runs across a wheatfield wearing a flower patterned dress. The dress broke up into strange lines when the 651 was upscaling the image. It's not the best DVD in terms of mastering; and the 651 struggled to reproduce this sequence perfectly. Other scenes in this film looked very good, however, and clearly better than outputting at native resolution.
I concluded that Marvell processing should be used selectively. With poorly mastered titles, it's probably better to output at 576i. Detail and depth are sacrificed for a more stable picture, but I preferred my VT65's upscaling under such circumstances. However, the 651 really breathes life into well mastered DVDs and clearly outperforms the VT65. I'm not sure I'd want to sacrifice this performance.
I'll contemplate whether the 651 is worth the outlay during the next week...
bigboss
Moderator
strapped for cash said:
The VT65 was brighter, more detail, deeper blacks and more distinct colours. The owner of the shop said there was not much difference between the two, and he was right in some ways but I could see the differences quite big.
bigboss said:
Guess so. Many of my remaining DVDs are not the best quality (possibly because they're quite obscure titles not released on BD). I'm questioning whether the 651 is adding value here. (At least in my specific circumstances.) I have the option to return without a restocking charge, though I think I'll do a little more testing before reaching a conclusion.
gel said:
The difference in performance between the GT50 and VT65 is quite pronounced in my opinion.
Ignoring any issues the two TVs may have, the VT65's picture has noticeably greater depth and detail; and an analogue quality to images I've not seen before on a digital TV.
gel said:
If Panasonic could do all of the above with perfect screen uniformity and long term reliability, we'd really be getting somewhere. That said, switching to another manufacturer means tolerating different problems (e.g. floating blacks and mild horizontal banding on the F8500.)
gel said:
Dunno. See if things get any better...
If not, I'll start contempalting whether a replacement or alternative model makes the most sense.
strapped for cash said:
Any more thoughts on TV or Blu-ray player?
I have just purchased a 3D HDMI cable!
The TV seems to be behaving itself (just about). By which I mean I can't see anything strange on actual content now, though I can notice a very slight cyan tint toward the very left of the screen when displaying a pure white slide, if I look very closely.
I'm not sure with the CA. I'm convinced there's some undefeatable processing going on, even with the 651 set to "Source Direct" (supposedly bypassing all processing). I've noticed a few occasional oddities with motion (as commented in the WHF review). In addition, I can't select "1080p Pure Direct" on the TV with the 651 playing BDs (yet I can when using the PS3, noisy as it is).
As above, the upscaling is variable, too. I'm wondering whether to go Denon, or stick with my 120. I still want to test the 651 further and compare performance more extensively with the Panasonic.
I'm not sure with the CA. I'm convinced there's some undefeatable processing going on, even with the 651 set to "Source Direct" (supposedly bypassing all processing). I've noticed a few occasional oddities with motion (as commented in the WHF review). In addition, I can't select "1080p Pure Direct" on the TV with the 651 playing BDs (yet I can when using the PS3, noisy as it is).
As above, the upscaling is variable, too. I'm wondering whether to go Denon, or stick with my 120. I still want to test the 651 further and compare performance more extensively with the Panasonic.
Marantz Marantz Marantz - there are still 7006 on the bay mate!!!
I know you wont have it but you will eventually give in to me and then thank me for being poorer but finally happy with your BD player
I know you wont have it but you will eventually give in to me and then thank me for being poorer but finally happy with your BD player
bigboss
Moderator
Knowing strapped, he will want to buy a player with returns option if he doesn't find it worthwhile.
ellisdj said:Marantz Marantz Marantz - there are still 7006 on the bay mate!!!
I know you wont have it but you will eventually give in to me and then thank me for being poorer but finally happy with your BD player
I never give in to anyone!
bigboss said:Knowing strapped, he will want to buy a player with returns option if he doesn't find it worthwhile.
That's a prerequisite. Extended home audition is the only way to be sure.
Right, figured it out.
The 651's processing and the VT65's processing were interfering with each other and causing occasional artifacts with both BDs and DVDs.
I couldn't figure out why I couldn't engage 1080p Pure Direct on the VT65 when playing content through the 651. As it turns out, I needed to set the HDMI colour space to YCbCr 4:4:4. Once I'd done this I was able to engage 1080p Pure Direct on the VT65 and, like magic, the artifacts vanished and picture quality improved with both BDs and DVDs.
Technically, you should always set the colour space to 4:2:2, as less downsampling is needed; but switching to 4:4:4 had no detrimental effect on colour balance or timing. In fact, image detail and stability improved ever so slightly with BDs, while the difference was more noticeable with the 651 upscaling DVDs to 1080p. During DVD playback, with the 651 upscaling, it's still possible to select 1080p Pure Direct on the TV. I'm now very impressed with the 651's upscaling, which is better than my Panasonic 120. (The 120 was no slouch in terms of upscaling, either.)
The same is true whichever BDP you use (4:4:4 must be selected to allow for 1080p Pure Direct selection on the VT65.) This is a quirk of the TV, rather than anything to do with the BDP. I thought that might be useful for other VT65 owners to know.
Sorry if that got a bit dull and technical. The short version is that I'm now very happy with the 651. I can stick my 120 on Ebay, content that I bought the right replacement at a great price. The 651 is also quieter in operation, better built, and I have a five year warranty, so I'm covered if anything goes wrong. My only remaining gripe is the remote, which still feels a bit cheap and unintuitive for what's technically a £500 BDP.
Just goes to show, a minor setting tweak can make quite a difference. You have to live with tech and experiment to fully appreciate what it can and can't do.
The 651's processing and the VT65's processing were interfering with each other and causing occasional artifacts with both BDs and DVDs.
I couldn't figure out why I couldn't engage 1080p Pure Direct on the VT65 when playing content through the 651. As it turns out, I needed to set the HDMI colour space to YCbCr 4:4:4. Once I'd done this I was able to engage 1080p Pure Direct on the VT65 and, like magic, the artifacts vanished and picture quality improved with both BDs and DVDs.
Technically, you should always set the colour space to 4:2:2, as less downsampling is needed; but switching to 4:4:4 had no detrimental effect on colour balance or timing. In fact, image detail and stability improved ever so slightly with BDs, while the difference was more noticeable with the 651 upscaling DVDs to 1080p. During DVD playback, with the 651 upscaling, it's still possible to select 1080p Pure Direct on the TV. I'm now very impressed with the 651's upscaling, which is better than my Panasonic 120. (The 120 was no slouch in terms of upscaling, either.)
The same is true whichever BDP you use (4:4:4 must be selected to allow for 1080p Pure Direct selection on the VT65.) This is a quirk of the TV, rather than anything to do with the BDP. I thought that might be useful for other VT65 owners to know.
Sorry if that got a bit dull and technical. The short version is that I'm now very happy with the 651. I can stick my 120 on Ebay, content that I bought the right replacement at a great price. The 651 is also quieter in operation, better built, and I have a five year warranty, so I'm covered if anything goes wrong. My only remaining gripe is the remote, which still feels a bit cheap and unintuitive for what's technically a £500 BDP.
Just goes to show, a minor setting tweak can make quite a difference. You have to live with tech and experiment to fully appreciate what it can and can't do.
strapped for cash said:ellisdj said:Marantz Marantz Marantz - there are still 7006 on the bay mate!!!
I know you wont have it but you will eventually give in to me and then thank me for being poorer but finally happy with your BD player
I never give in to anyone!
Incidentally, reading this reply back, it could be interpreted quite differently from my intention. My response was tongue-in-cheek, but it could be read as defiant and confrontational. (Hopefully you didn't read it that way!)
BenLaw
Well-known member
Just to add, I'd only need a unversal remote to control four devices: TV; BDP; AVR; CDP.
I can't see this list of kit expanding, so a well built, straightforward remote should do it. I guess the AVR remote is the tricky one to replace. I wouldn't want to lose functionality, or spend minutes messing around to make relatively simple adjustments. Obviously I don't want the remote to look tacky, either, since ditching the cheapish 651BD remote would be the object of the exercise.
I can't see this list of kit expanding, so a well built, straightforward remote should do it. I guess the AVR remote is the tricky one to replace. I wouldn't want to lose functionality, or spend minutes messing around to make relatively simple adjustments. Obviously I don't want the remote to look tacky, either, since ditching the cheapish 651BD remote would be the object of the exercise.
bigboss
Moderator
gel said:Just picked up the Pioneer 55 Blu-ray player. :cheer: Full review to follow.
Start a new thread for it, instead of posting LX55's review in 651BD's thread.
bigboss
Moderator
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