Aftermarket/audiophile power cables. Surely they make a difference??

[jmjones]

And you Gazzip are insulting the professional carpet makers, who are obviously honest joes who have worked in the game for a lifetime.

No doubt you would have argued the same for VWs emission data?

Mr. Rock has written a balanced view of what we have available to make decisions. Your reply has more of the judgemental trumpism about it than his.

My advice to Chris is simple enough. I've swapped cables around a lot, tried mains isolators and a few other things and decided it wasn't worth the effort. I suggest borrowing a few to check them out. If you can hear the difference then good for you. If not take 'em back. Any dealer not capable of lending a few of the things out isn't putting his money where his mouth is.

 

[Gazzip]

And you Gazzip are insulting the professional carpet makers, who are obviously honest joes who have worked in the game for a lifetime.

No doubt you would have argued the same for VWs emission data?

Mr. Rock has written a balanced view of what we have available to make decisions. Your reply has more of the judgemental trumpism about it than his.

My advice to Chris is simple enough. I've swapped cables around a lot, tried mains isolators and a few other things and decided it wasn't worth the effort. I suggest borrowing a few to check them out. If you can hear the difference then good for you. If not take 'em back. Any dealer not capable of lending a few of the things out isn't putting his money where his mouth is.

Whatever. I'm out.

 

[Oldphrt]

"Most efficient electric heater" relies on more than energy conversion. Insulation factors? How was it measured? What's it trying to heat?

An electric heater that produces no light or noise dissipates 100% of the input power as heat. That is a fact, and your other points are twaddle.

 

[jmjones]

So I'll keep going. Is a fan assisted electric heater more efficient than a radiator in a large space? How important is the energy conversion then?

By the way, I already knew that energy is converted not lost. Did you have to Google it?

 

[seemorebtts]

What makes me hopping mad about this subject is that we live in a country where our government regularly tries to wipe the 'rse of the general public and impose control on nearly every facet of our lives. Why therefore not this area? The ASA are a bunch of toothless morons who are quite frankly a waste of the tax payers' money and should be closed down. This could be ended in a moment if they would take action. Why they won't/can't is beyond me.

Time and again complaints against cable manufacturers' objective claims about cable performance have been upheld, with the only punishment handed out to the manufacturers being a slap on the wrist and a don't make claims you cannot back up again. If I as a professional lied and cheated my way through life like this I would be struck off the register and imprisoned. Why are they not in jail!

This whole debate is ridiculous. Cables either make a diference to SQ or they do not, and this needs to be proven. It sounds as if the AES has already done this... The authorities our taxes feed need to rule on things like this and be given the power to actually do something, or what's the point in them existing. They need to make cable manufacturers prove their products work or put them out of business and prosecute. Christ I'm angry about this today.

 A fool and his money will always be parted and that's the reason why anyone sets up a hifi cable company. Scammers are everywhere, trying to catch out the unwary. There's a scamming German electric radiator seller that has a Which trusted trader award. They don't tell you that they cost the same to run as any old cheap heaters and as they run off full price electricity they will cost a fortune to run. Presumably the good reviews are from before they get a leccy bill.

I repeatedly reported the lies to Which but although the company has removed a page that contained a whopper about being cheaper to run than storage heaters they are still a trusted trader. Even Which magazine doesn't care.

"They’re the world’s most efficient electric radiators", but all electric heaters are 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat.

https://southwestheatingsolutions.co.uk/?gclid=CKaIo8GWs9ICFe4y0wodQhANCw

 

FWIW here is my theory. In life we make an enormous amount of decisions  based on what other people tell us and on what we read. Weather that is from reviews, word of mouth, adverts or manufacturer info/claims. We base many spending decisions on this information and what we think we would like. For example, I have used super unleaded in my car because I am told it is better for the engine performance and fuel economy. Does it work? No idea, but I like the idea of what I am told. Same theory with engine oil. I chose my new boiler because I read it is AAA+ efficient and will be cheaper than the cheaper model to run. Is it? I have no idea. I drink red wine instead of white because experts say there are some health benefits (in moderation of course). It actually gives me worse head aches and I don't see any health benefits. But I like it better now (may be to do with psychology of the health benefits) so I drink that instead. I paid more for a better quality carpet. Not because it looked better but because I was told it would wear better and last longer. Will it? I have no idea. I could go on about all manor of other products. But more on topic, I chose to audition and purchase Marantz HIFI equipment because I read that (in my price bracket) they are quality products, and chose to listen to my Dali speakers for the same reason. With all things in life you have people on either side of the fence saying this is better that is better, this works, that doesn't work and give their reasons why they know this from knowledge or think it from experience. So then how do people with little know how decide from everything they read and hear what to buy? 

Well regarding the power cables how do I decide from what I read weather to give one a try or not? I like the idea of them making a difference to the sound quality. I have read the manufacturers claims (biased I know), numerous HIFI mag reviews and user reviews all saying that they make a difference. Then I read people who talk very technicaly who say that it's impossible for them to work. I reads the for's and against but ultimately I'm just left wondering weather they do work or not. How do I ever find out? Well the only way is to try for myself and make my own mind up. The result of people saying they do not work is i remain sceptical and only spend an amount I can afford to waste in my persuit of enjoying my music even more. After all, many HIFI enthusiasts waste money for that same reason. If I try and like then I may choose to spend more next time, but thats fine, because in my mind I am now a believer. 

In this case I would rather try and know, that not try and forever wonder. 

This is the problem perfectly highlighted. You are mixing together the A+++ EU energy rating certification on white goods (heavily regulated and tested/certified under EU law) with CarpetWorld telling you that their carpets are really, really good (unregulated and untested pikey lies/opinion). You cannot compare these two "truths". To do so is an insult to the science behind the former and to grossly exaggerate the significance of the latter. It is anti-intellectual. It is Trumpism. You are chosing the steak because it is chewy and flavoursome. You are backing the false-news horse and embracing post-truth because it suits what you want to believe. You have to use your brain and read between the lines!

You missed the point I was trying to make Gazzip, but that's probably more down to the context in which I tried make it. 

I have invested more time in reading and replying to comments on this thread than I had originally expected to. It has evolved into childish nonsense and partly due to my reactions to comments which has in turn fueled yet further similarly toned replies. I'll leave it at that now. I am off to make a couple of purchases for my set up and may return to post my opinion of my new cable in the future. 

Thanks to all that helped. *bye* *BYE*

good luck and please post what you thought

 

[andyjm]

"Most efficient electric heater" relies on more than energy conversion. Insulation factors? How was it measured? What's it trying to heat?

An electric heater that produces no light or noise dissipates 100% of the input power as heat. That is a fact, and your other points are twaddle.

JM, Mr Phrt is actually correct.

An electric heater will turn 100% of the input energy into heat. Any noise will eventually decay to heat because of friction in the air, any movement of air from a fan will decay to heat - again because of friction. Any radiation given off (be it visible light or Infra Red) will eventually strike a surface and be absorbed as heat.

Interestingly (given the forum) the same is true for your amp. All input energy ends up as heat - unless you count the 'joyful energy' of listening to you hifi.

*** This by the way is why the energy comparisons on light bulb packets are misleading. In the heating months, those old incandescent bulbs were helping to heat your house. Your electricity bill was higher than with modern bulbs, but your gas bill was lower. I have never done the maths, but I suspect that if you take the much higher cost of modern bulbs, the energy intensive manufacturing required and the heating benefit in the cold months then the modern bulb's green and cost effective credentials aren't anywhere near so compelling.

 

[avole]

Half of your 56 posts to date must be on this thread, and not one of them have imparted a shred of knowledge. You appear to be a troll (google internet troll).

You asked for people's opinions and thoughts.

You've got them.

Some you don't like, but that's life.

Live with it and stop whinging.

 

[Oldphrt]

So I'll keep going. Is a fan assisted electric heater more efficient than a radiator in a large space? How important is the energy conversion then?

By the way, I already knew that energy is converted not lost. Did you have to Google it?

I see you finally googled it, LOL.

 

[andyjm]

In this case I would rather try and know, that not try and forever wonder.

Chris,

The problem is that the measuring tool you are using (yourself) is hopeless.

​You may well experience a difference by changing a mains cable, but the sound coming out the speaker will be exactly the same. Please google those references I mentioned earlier in the thread about bias and double blind testing.

It is actually an interesting philosophical discussion about perception. If you perceive an improvement, then there is a strong argument to suggest that the cable has worked, whether or not there is any difference to the sound. You paid your money, the experience is better ......it has worked.

Whether the sound has actually changed is immaterial to you.

This argument gets flaky though when you try to impart this experience to others, implying that they will experience the same change - and I think this is where I have a problem with some of the posts on this forum.

Electrically, changing a pefectly adequate mains cable for another perfectly adequate mains cable will not make an audible difference to the amp's output. Clearly many on here have experienced improvements by making this change - which I don't question. The question is whether that experience is transfereble and you will experience the same improvement.

 

[ellisdj]

The question is whether that experience is transfereble and you will experience the same improvement.

 

 

 

Only one way to find that out Andy.

 

[Oldphrt]

The question is whether that experience is transfereble and you will experience the same improvement.

Only one way to find that out Andy.

Yep. Educate yourself. Then you will know not to waste your money.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

This is meant to be a bit of fun, so don’t take it personally.

Objectivist : “There is no way that a mains cable or speaker cable designed correctly can make a difference. They have studied electrical properties of metals etc., for 150years – and they don’t make any difference whatsoever”.

Subjectivist : “This is not true, I can hear a difference. I purchased a mains cable that cost £750 and it made the sound clearer, better imaging, soundstage was improved”.

Objectivist : “That’s the problem, you changed the cable and you expected a change, so your brain fooled you into thinking there was a change. It is called expectation bias, and has been known for many years, it is scientifically proven”.

Subjectivist : “I have my system set up perfectly, the entire system is very sensitive, and so the optimisation will show up any defects and changes, and when I change the cable, I can hear the difference”.

Objectivist : “No, your brain thinks it can hear a difference, there is no change, you think you are going to hear a change, and you automatically believe you heard a change”.

Subjectivist : “How do you know I did not hear a change, you are not me, I heard a change”.

Objectivist : “That is the problem, I know you did not hear a change because of expectation bias, and scientifically, the changes in cable, especially mains cables, do not affect the audio signal, so it is not possible you can hear a change”.

Subjectivist : “Well, you don’t know until you try – why don’t you try it – I hear a change, you might surprise yourself”.

Objectivist : “No, everyone is affected by expectation bias, so even me, knowing it exists cannot guarantee that I will not believe I heard a change. You have to complete this testing under controlled conditions such as blind testing”.

Subjectivist : “You don’t want to admit that you might hear a change, and you don’t know until you try. Just give it a try and you will see”.

Objectivist : “Arrrggh, no, it is expectation bias that is the issue. Science has proved that a properly designed cable, be it mains or speaker, will NOT make a difference. This is the same science that has provided all technology in the world, from cars, planes, trains, computers, televisions, electronics, the internet, every bloody bit of technology we use today etc. etc., etc., .

You believe you are hearing a difference – and that is all that it is – as belief – it does NOT exist- no more than Harry Potter can perform magic – it is all make believe”

Subjectivist : “Hold on, you mean that there is no such thing as magic….”

Objectivist : “You sir, have the brain of a lemming”.

Subjectivist : “Whatsa lemming ?”

Regards,

Shadders.

@page { margin: 2cm }
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[cheeseboy]

think this checklist about covers it

You claim that an

( ) audible
( ) measurable
( ) hypothetical

improvement in sound quality can be attained by:

( ) upsampling
( ) increasing word size
( ) vibration dampening
( ) bi-wiring
( ) replacing the external power supply
( ) using a different equally lossless format
( ) decompressing on the server
( ) removing bits of metal from skull
( ) using ethernet instead of wireless
( ) inverting phase
( ) installing bigger connectors
( ) installing Black Gate caps
( ) installing ByBee filters
( ) installing hospital-grade AC jacks
( ) defragmenting the hard disk
( ) running older firmware
( ) mains filtering

Your idea will not work. Specifically, it fails to account for:

( ) the placebo effect
( ) your ears honestly aren't that good
( ) your idea has already been thoroughly disproved
( ) modern DACs upsample anyway
( ) those products are pure snake oil
( ) lossless formats, by definition, are[/i] lossless
( ) those measurements are bogus
( ) sound travels much slower than you think
( ) electric signals travel much faster than you think
( ) that's not how binary arithmetic works
( ) that's not how TCP/IP works
( ) the Nyquist theorem
( ) the 'can't polish a turd' theorem
( ) bits are bits

Your subsequent arguments will probably appeal in desperation to such esoterica as:

( ) jitter
( ) EMI
( ) thermal noise
( ) existentialism
( ) cosmic rays

And you will then change the subject to:

( ) theories are not the same as facts
( ) measurements don't tell everything
( ) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect
( ) blind testing is dumb
( ) you can't prove what I can't hear
( ) science isn't everything

Rather than engage in this tired discussion, I suggest exploring the following factors which are more likely to improve sound quality in your situation:

( ) room acoustics
( ) source material
( ) type of speakers
( ) speaker placement
( ) crossover points
( ) equalization
( ) Q-tips

By the way, when did you last have your hearing professionally checked, and are you willing to share the frequency response chart he/she gave you?

 

[Gazzip]

Shadders and Cheeseboy cannot be very good scientists as they are both clearly out of work and at a loose end... *wink*

 

[cheeseboy]

Shadders and Cheeseboy cannot be very good scientists as they are both clearly out of work and at a loose end... *wink*

how do you know about my loose end?? *wink*

 

[jmjones]

Quite right too. By the way, the appropriate response to "when did last have your hearing checked" is "Eh, what?" *clapping*

 

[Gaz37]

Hasn't somebody put up a substantial cash reward to any cable (of any kind) manufacturer who can, under controlled conditions, prove that their cables improve sound quality?

As far I know nobody has been prepared to even take up the challenge.

Makes me wonder why.

 

[Native_bon]

Hasn't somebody put up a substantial cash reward to any cable (of any kind) manufacturer who can, under controlled conditions, prove that their cables improve sound quality?

As far I know nobody has been prepared to even take up the challenge.

Makes me wonder why.

Same could be said about amps, streamers or cd players. *smile*

 

[Gaz37]

Hasn't somebody put up a substantial cash reward to any cable (of any kind) manufacturer who can, under controlled conditions, prove that their cables improve sound quality?

As far I know nobody has been prepared to even take up the challenge.

Makes me wonder why.

Same could be said about amps, streamers or cd players. *smile*

But why?

If I knew I made a product that improved sound quality I'd be only too happy to prove it, especially if I could get a million USD out of it.

Of course I suppose if I was making more money than that by just convincing customers my product was good..........................................?

 

[ellisdj]

who is doing any convincing - I am trying to remember the last time I was cold called by a cable company convincing me to try their wares............

 

[Gaz37]

who is doing any convincing - I am trying to remember the last time I was cold called by a cable company convincing me to try their wares............

I don't remember Toyota cold calling me but I somehow bought one of their cars.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont remember the last ad on TV I saw from a cables company - I can remember a Toyota advert or 20

 

[ellisdj]

There is also a big difference between promotion and convincing someone.

I dont think cable companies try to promote to get people to buy cables.
They just promote to get the person to buy their cables not the competitors.
What business doesnt do that.....

 

[Gaz37]

Don't cable companies advertise?

I don't read HiFi magazines so I have no idea?

If they do I very much doubt that they just say "We make cables" and leave it at that?

 

[nopiano]

Don't cable companies advertise?

I don't read HiFi magazines so I have no idea?

If they do I very much doubt that they just say "We make cables" and leave it at that?

A quick look in a recent mag shows that Chord say their cables gave been enjoyed by music lovers for 30 years. Nothing to upset the ASA there!

Others quote awards or accolades they've won. Or sentiments like 'superior construction: superior performance.'

All pretty non-specific I reckon.