Aftermarket/audiophile power cables. Surely they make a difference??

[lindsayt]

I fully understand. My example (or rather the one given with pensioner) was just to highlight that there is absolutely nothing illegal about charging 20 times more, for whatever reason.

As long as no one exploits the vulnerable and as long as the price is worth paying from the punters view ... fine.

I think it would be fair to say that most Audiophiles that pay large sums of money for wire have enough disposable income and a believe that it is worth it for them.

No problem imho.

If you have two cables with similar manufacturing costs where one company is charging 20 times more than the other then that is legal but it is unethical - assuming the cheaper company is still selling at a profit.

It's the sort of thing that deserves exposure on Watchdog. The sort of thing where every potential customer should be informed of the rip-off pricing policy of that company.

The people selling the vastly over-priced cables know their pricing policy. They know that every customer would be interested in being told of their pricing policy. And yet they keep it secret. Or even worse tell lies / half-truths / give misinformation in order to justify their vastly over-inflated prices. Keeping secrets from your customers - especially when it's something as important as the price - is underhanded. It's unethical. It's treating your customers with contempt. It's something that no ethical company should do under any circumstances.

It's something that should be exposed whenever possible.

 

[drummerman]

I fully understand. My example (or rather the one given with pensioner) was just to highlight that there is absolutely nothing illegal about charging 20 times more, for whatever reason.

As long as no one exploits the vulnerable and as long as the price is worth paying from the punters view ... fine.

I think it would be fair to say that most Audiophiles that pay large sums of money for wire have enough disposable income and a believe that it is worth it for them.

No problem imho.

If you have two cables with similar manufacturing costs where one company is charging 20 times more than the other then that is legal but it is unethical - assuming the cheaper company is still selling at a profit.

It's the sort of thing that deserves exposure on Watchdog. The sort of thing where every potential customer should be informed of the rip-off pricing policy of that company.

 

The people selling the vastly over-priced cables know their pricing policy. They know that every customer would be interested in being told of their pricing policy. And yet they keep it secret. Or even worse tell lies / half-truths / give misinformation in order to justify their vastly over-inflated prices. Keeping secrets from your customers - especially when it's something as important as the price - is underhanded. It's unethical. It's treating your customers with contempt. It's something that no ethical company should do under any circumstances.

It's something that should be exposed whenever possible.

This all reminds me of a certain Irish bloke that used to frequent these waters.

A knight of righteousness and defender of the poor

It got exceedingly annoying in the end.

Tell you what, why don't you guys hang on to your hard earned and let others decide how they spend theirs?

Sounds good dunnit?

 

[lindsayt]

Yes, of course each and every adult person should be allowed to spend their money however they wish.

However, they should also be given at least a minimum amount of information on which to make an informed decision.

And that is where forums come in. As a place to discuss and expose the unethical.

 

[drummerman]

... As a place to discuss and expose the unethical.

Really ...

 

[ellisdj]

Lindsayt no companies publish how much something costs to manufacture and why would / should they.

 

[drummerman]

Personally I'd rather discuss on a hifi forum how a cable I got in my loom almost seems to add an octave of bass to my system compared to one I recently bought (and sold) and how much nicer my mains cables look compared to the cheap ones included in the box.

Perhaps they even improved something else ...

It's a hifi forum not witch ... sorry watchdog.

Still, nothing wrong with discussing perceived value (or a lack thereof) ... just don't bang on about it like a broken record.

Give your opinion and be done with.

Simples.

 

[lindsayt]

Lindsayt no companies publish how much something costs to manufacture and why would / should they.

Outside the world of hi-fi, there are plenty of companies that provide detailed quotations - which are sufficient for the customer to know if they are being overcharged to the tune of 2000% or not.

When it comes to hi-fi I can think of one company that freely and publicly discusses their manufacturing costs. There's a high chance that others would be happy to discuss their costs, if asked.

The benefit to the companies of doing this is that they build up a relationship with their customers.

 

[dellroy]

Lindsayt no companies publish how much something costs to manufacture and why would / should they.

Outside the world of hi-fi, there are plenty of companies that provide detailed quotations - which are sufficient for the customer to know if they are being overcharged to the tune of 2000% or not.

When it comes to hi-fi I can think of one company that freely and publicly discusses their manufacturing costs. There's a high chance that others would be happy to discuss their costs, if asked.

The benefit to the companies of doing this is that they build up a relationship with their customers.

I am not convinced of the benefit of telling the customer the cost of manufacturing. Would it put people off purchasing an item because they think the profit for the company is too big, if the product is (in the customers view) superior to a rival product where to company has lower margins?

I have been looking to purchase some Dali Opticon 2 for a while now. Every single retailer sells them for the same price. So I assume that is set by Dali. They are like rocking horse s*** 2nd had and I can afford them brand new.

More on topic. I have purchased after marcket audio interconnects and a optical lead. Only paid 30 odd quid or so for each. I can not tell any difference between them and the manufacturer supplied ones. Would I buy a power cord? Probably as the one I have looks cheap and I can see it on my display so wouldn't mind a more expensive looking one. What I would like is to try one first and see if it makes any difference, and that way I would fork out a little more if it did.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

I think that as long as people on this forum are discussing cables and stating that they make a difference, then the counter argument should be provided. We will not know whether the person is aware of expectation bias etc., or has a background for them to comprehend whether cables can make a difference or not.

No one states that those people who believe that cables make a difference, should stop posting once they have said what they believe.

Those wishing to suppress others on the open forum, are advocating the profiteering of cable companies. Both arguments need to be aired, as long as it is done without people being rude to one another.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[jmjones]

Quite right Shadders. A very reasoned approach. This forum needs more of it. *good*

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you and other people always post that high and mighty BS but your just dressing up your tactics

Noone ever said people posting negative comments towards cables or any other topic matter should not be allowed. Noone has ever said that people shouldnt post whatever they want

However people should show other people the respect and allow them to discuss their subjective opinions on all subject matters without aggressive intrusion from other parties trying to "challenge them", tell them otherwise or be rude sarcastic etc relentlessly every time "for sport" - all words taken from posters in this thread

That is where the lines are crossed and the forum threads ruined and people pushed away from the forum as is evident by the same names of the posters on here. A chap even posted how negative he felt towards this forum because of this in this very thread. That cannot be glossed over or spun by you.

This is truth of the matter - the chap came on here for some advice on cables to try - not to be told he was an idiot for trying them

Page after page of the same of story about why cables dont make a difference blah blah blah - what was the end result - chap said I am off to buy some cables. So what was the point in all the negativity. Its achieved nothing - except maybe triggering a few anti cable fanatics into assult mode.

Instead a positive thread with a few suggestions of cables to try would have achieved a happier forum user and a repeat forum user. Given the chap a few interesting ideas to go away and have FUN with trying and testing out.

He ended up buying the cables anyway - he is just unlikely to come back on here now to share this expeirience and any others he might have in the future. What good has possibly come from this?? I can only see bad coming from this.

So what we end up with is not a free speech fourm a forum dominated by a few that often act like bullies - so as I said at the start your dressing up a tactic

 

[shadders]

Shadders you and other people always post that high and mighty BS but your just dressing up your tactics

Noone ever said people posting negative comments towards cables or any other topic matter should not be allowed. Noone has ever said that people shouldnt post whatever they want

However people should show other people the respect and allow them to discuss their subjective opinions on all subject matters without aggressive intrusion from other parties trying to "challenge them", tell them otherwise or be rude sarcastic etc relentlessly every time "for sport" - all words taken from posters in this thread

That is where the lines are crossed and the forum threads ruined and people pushed away from the forum as is evident by the same names of the posters on here. A chap even posted how negative he felt towards this forum because of this in this very thread. That cannot be glossed over or spun by you.

This is truth of the matter - the chap came on here for some advice on cables to try - not to be told he was an idiot for trying them

Page after page of the same of story about why cables dont make a difference blah blah blah - what was the end result - chap said I am off to buy some cables. So what was the point in all the negativity. Its achieved nothing - except maybe triggering a few anti cable fanatics into assult mode.

Instead a positive thread with a few suggestions of cables to try would have achieved a happier forum user and a repeat forum user. Given the chap a few interesting ideas to go away and have FUN with trying and testing out.

He ended up buying the cables anyway - he is just unlikely to come back on here now to share this expeirience and any others he might have in the future. What good has possibly come from this?? I can only see bad coming from this.

So what we end up with is not a free speech fourm a forum dominated by a few that often act like bullies - so as I said at the start your dressing up a tactic

Hi,

@page { margin: 2cm }
p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120% }

Again, as per other threads, this is an open forum, and as long as people are not rude to one another, then all views are allowed.

You are complaining about people not posting statements which agree with your world view of cables etc.

If you have an issue with other peoples behaviour, then correspond with them and do not claim anyone with an opposing view is behaving badly.

Some good does come of this – recent optical cable thread – person purchased a standard one rather than spend excessive amounts.

Your claim of some people acting like bullies. Please recall that you have stated to me that I am on drugs, are a politician, a salesman, accused me of being against you in another thread (where I was not participating in the thread) even though my statements on cables were polite. I then asked you multiple times to stop the personal remarks, and you then claimed it was banter and you were “testing my personality”. I had never responded in the same manner to you, and as such, this “banter” was in your head only. You were in effect behaving like a bully.

Whatever the outcome of the person who asks for advice, it is important that they obtain the relevant views, whether for or against cables, such that they can at least make a better informed choice.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Native_bon]

If we take into account reputable hi-fi companies also make cables, and expensive ones at that. Now with this in mind should we also doubt if these companies are selling us substandard hi-fi, or selling at exorbitant prices if this is the case for cables.

In addition to that, should we not also ask the question that a test also proves under controlled conditions that cables make no difference to sound?

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you and other people always post that high and mighty BS but your just dressing up your tactics

Noone ever said people posting negative comments towards cables or any other topic matter should not be allowed. Noone has ever said that people shouldnt post whatever they want

However people should show other people the respect and allow them to discuss their subjective opinions on all subject matters without aggressive intrusion from other parties trying to "challenge them", tell them otherwise or be rude sarcastic etc relentlessly every time "for sport" - all words taken from posters in this thread

That is where the lines are crossed and the forum threads ruined and people pushed away from the forum as is evident by the same names of the posters on here. A chap even posted how negative he felt towards this forum because of this in this very thread. That cannot be glossed over or spun by you.

This is truth of the matter - the chap came on here for some advice on cables to try - not to be told he was an idiot for trying them

Page after page of the same of story about why cables dont make a difference blah blah blah - what was the end result - chap said I am off to buy some cables. So what was the point in all the negativity. Its achieved nothing - except maybe triggering a few anti cable fanatics into assult mode.

Instead a positive thread with a few suggestions of cables to try would have achieved a happier forum user and a repeat forum user. Given the chap a few interesting ideas to go away and have FUN with trying and testing out.

He ended up buying the cables anyway - he is just unlikely to come back on here now to share this expeirience and any others he might have in the future. What good has possibly come from this?? I can only see bad coming from this.

So what we end up with is not a free speech fourm a forum dominated by a few that often act like bullies - so as I said at the start your dressing up a tactic

Hi,
@page { margin: 2cm } p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120% }
Again, as per other threads, this is an open forum, and as long as people are not rude to one another, then all views are allowed.

You are complaining about people not posting statements which agree with your world view of cables etc.

If you have an issue with other peoples behaviour, then correspond with them and do not claim anyone with an opposing view is behaving badly.

Some good does come of this – recent optical cable thread – person purchased a standard one rather than spend excessive amounts.

Your claim of some people acting like bullies. Please recall that you have stated to me that I am on drugs, are a politician, a salesman, accused me of being against you in another thread (where I was not participating in the thread) even though my statements on cables were polite. I then asked you multiple times to stop the personal remarks, and you then claimed it was banter and you were “testing my personality”. I had never responded in the same manner to you, and as such, this “banter” was in your head only. You were in effect behaving like a bully.

Whatever the outcome of the person who asks for advice, it is important that they obtain the relevant views, whether for or against cables, such that they can at least make a better informed choice.

Regards,

Shadders.

I called you a politician and sales man - which is not an actually an insult - it was meant as a back handed compliment because you spin your posts off track of the previous ones very successfully - as you have done just now.

You have pretty much copied and pasted a post you made the other day and you have avoided 90% of my post and twisted it suit your post and arguement. Its very clear this is what you have done / do repeatedly. You have avoided all that I have said there in your post and just twisted it .

You can see that as an insult but its only me highlighting your forum posting tactic which is spin spin spin pretty much everytime - as you have done above

 

[shadders]

Shadders you and other people always post that high and mighty BS but your just dressing up your tactics

Noone ever said people posting negative comments towards cables or any other topic matter should not be allowed. Noone has ever said that people shouldnt post whatever they want

However people should show other people the respect and allow them to discuss their subjective opinions on all subject matters without aggressive intrusion from other parties trying to "challenge them", tell them otherwise or be rude sarcastic etc relentlessly every time "for sport" - all words taken from posters in this thread

That is where the lines are crossed and the forum threads ruined and people pushed away from the forum as is evident by the same names of the posters on here. A chap even posted how negative he felt towards this forum because of this in this very thread. That cannot be glossed over or spun by you.

This is truth of the matter - the chap came on here for some advice on cables to try - not to be told he was an idiot for trying them

Page after page of the same of story about why cables dont make a difference blah blah blah - what was the end result - chap said I am off to buy some cables. So what was the point in all the negativity. Its achieved nothing - except maybe triggering a few anti cable fanatics into assult mode.

Instead a positive thread with a few suggestions of cables to try would have achieved a happier forum user and a repeat forum user. Given the chap a few interesting ideas to go away and have FUN with trying and testing out.

He ended up buying the cables anyway - he is just unlikely to come back on here now to share this expeirience and any others he might have in the future. What good has possibly come from this?? I can only see bad coming from this.

So what we end up with is not a free speech fourm a forum dominated by a few that often act like bullies - so as I said at the start your dressing up a tactic

Hi,

@page { margin: 2cm } p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120% }

Again, as per other threads, this is an open forum, and as long as people are not rude to one another, then all views are allowed.

You are complaining about people not posting statements which agree with your world view of cables etc.

If you have an issue with other peoples behaviour, then correspond with them and do not claim anyone with an opposing view is behaving badly.

Some good does come of this – recent optical cable thread – person purchased a standard one rather than spend excessive amounts.

Your claim of some people acting like bullies. Please recall that you have stated to me that I am on drugs, are a politician, a salesman, accused me of being against you in another thread (where I was not participating in the thread) even though my statements on cables were polite. I then asked you multiple times to stop the personal remarks, and you then claimed it was banter and you were “testing my personality”. I had never responded in the same manner to you, and as such, this “banter” was in your head only. You were in effect behaving like a bully.

Whatever the outcome of the person who asks for advice, it is important that they obtain the relevant views, whether for or against cables, such that they can at least make a better informed choice.

Regards,

Shadders.

I called you a politician and sales man - which is not an actually an insult - it was meant as a back handed compliment because you spin your posts off track of the previous ones very successfully - as you have done just now.

You have pretty much copied and pasted a post you made the other day and you have avoided 90% of my post and twisted it suit your post and arguement. Its very clear this is what you have done / do repeatedly. You have avoided all that I have said there in your post and just twisted it .

You can see that as an insult but its only me highlighting your forum posting tactic which is spin spin spin pretty much everytime - as you have done above

Hi,

I asked you to stop the personal remarks multiple times - this is a fact and not twisting anything.

All comments as far as i can see, including my own, against cables making a difference, are factual. There is no twisting or spin. It is based on engineering principles.

As above - this is an open forum and anyone can post what they like, relevant to the thread, as long as it is not rude towards others.

There are no tactics, it is just posting engineering/science facts in regards to cables not making any difference.

It would be of benefit if the cable companies presented the engineering/science facts on why their cables do sound different.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[daveh75]

Shadders you and other people always post that high and mighty BS but your just dressing up your tactics

Noone ever said people posting negative comments towards cables or any other topic matter should not be allowed. Noone has ever said that people shouldnt post whatever they want

However people should show other people the respect and allow them to discuss their subjective opinions on all subject matters without aggressive intrusion from other parties trying to "challenge them", tell them otherwise or be rude sarcastic etc relentlessly every time "for sport" - all words taken from posters in this thread

That is where the lines are crossed and the forum threads ruined and people pushed away from the forum as is evident by the same names of the posters on here. A chap even posted how negative he felt towards this forum because of this in this very thread. That cannot be glossed over or spun by you.

This is truth of the matter - the chap came on here for some advice on cables to try - not to be told he was an idiot for trying them

Page after page of the same of story about why cables dont make a difference blah blah blah - what was the end result - chap said I am off to buy some cables. So what was the point in all the negativity. Its achieved nothing - except maybe triggering a few anti cable fanatics into assult mode.

Instead a positive thread with a few suggestions of cables to try would have achieved a happier forum user and a repeat forum user. Given the chap a few interesting ideas to go away and have FUN with trying and testing out.

He ended up buying the cables anyway - he is just unlikely to come back on here now to share this expeirience and any others he might have in the future. What good has possibly come from this?? I can only see bad coming from this.

So what we end up with is not a free speech fourm a forum dominated by a few that often act like bullies - so as I said at the start your dressing up a tactic

How is you and fellow fuckwits perpetuating ******** and misleading others with your terminal ignorance helpful to anyone?

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves...

 

[slice]

I'm just waitng the cricket to start, and, being at a loose end, did a cursory count of the posts so far. 89/241 posts contain knowledge against, or scepticism towards cables making a difference or are written by people who have given that view in other posts on the thread, 151/241 are by people who believe in the differences or are prepared to think changing cables might be worth a try.....

It weather looks similar to Uk in Antigua, but I bet it's warmer.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you are twsiting the conversation I didnt mention any facts - lets look at it actually, in your post you have ignored 90% of of what I said to concentrate on 10% of it where you can make your strongest point - now that is exaclty what politicians and sales people do to spin things - hence me calling you a sales man and a politician

DaveH75 - obviously "fuckwits" dont want to read other peoples opinions on hifi .... mmm lets look at that comment shall we.

This is the forum for whathifi - the magazine built on subjective reviews where "fuckwits" give their opinions on hifi. Of course no one wants to come on the What HiFi forum and read some other "fuckwits! opinions of things related to hifi. Of course they dont. Its the "fuckwit" who doesnt realise that.

EDIT I have also just realised DaveH75 rude ignorant post sums up and displays exactly what I was saying in the post he quoted about - well done that man for proving my point so well

 

[shadders]

Shadders you are twsiting the conversation I didnt mention any facts - lets look at it actually, in your post you have ignored 90% of of what I said to concentrate on 10% of it where you can make your strongest point - now that is exaclty what politicians and sales people do to spin things - hence me calling you a sales man and a politician

DaveH75 - obviously "fuckwits" dont want to read other peoples opinions on hifi .... mmm lets look at that comment shall we.

This is the forum for whathifi - the magazine built on subjective reviews where "fuckwits" give their opinions on hifi. Of course no one wants to come on the What HiFi forum and read some other "fuckwits! opinions of things related to hifi. Of course they dont. Its the "fuckwit" who doesnt realise that.

Hi,

There is no twisting, tactics, spin, or other. People stating cables make no difference are presenting scientific/engineering facts.

If you disagree with what is being said, then counter the argument/stance. Complaining that someone is writing statements which do not meet with your approach, seems to be an attempt to suppress their comments.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Al ears]

Shadders you are twsiting the conversation I didnt mention any facts - lets look at it actually, in your post you have ignored 90% of of what I said to concentrate on 10% of it where you can make your strongest point - now that is exaclty what politicians and sales people do to spin things - hence me calling you a sales man and a politician

DaveH75 - obviously "fuckwits" dont want to read other peoples opinions on hifi .... mmm lets look at that comment shall we.

This is the forum for whathifi - the magazine built on subjective reviews where "fuckwits" give their opinions on hifi. Of course no one wants to come on the What HiFi forum and read some other "fuckwits! opinions of things related to hifi. Of course they dont. Its the "fuckwit" who doesnt realise that.

EDIT I have also just realised DaveH75 rude ignorant post sums up and displays exactly what I was saying in the post he quoted about - well done that man for proving my point so well

It's a wonderfully interesting world here isn't it.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders look at my post #236 and your post #237.

You have not addressed hardly anything I said - yet you pointed your reply at me so surerly you could have addressed at least some of what I said - the token a guy didnt buy an optical cable other day BS makes up for someone openly saying this forum thread makes me no want to participate anymore. Thanks to people like DaveH75 comments

Your happy to now shift the focus to an area where you feel strongest in arguement as you always do - where is the "science to prove it" to avoid addressing some other things I raised.

That is 100% political spin tactic

 

[dellroy]

So do these cables actually work then or what? Or do some people just think they do and others think they know they don't? *biggrin* *bomb*

 

[shadders]

Shadders look at my post #236 and your post #237.

You have not addressed hardly anything I said - yet you pointed your reply at me so surerly you could have addressed at least some of what I said - the token a guy didnt buy an optical cable other day BS makes up for someone openly saying this forum thread makes me no want to participate anymore. Thanks to people like DaveH75 comments

Your happy to now shift the focus to an area where you feel strongest in arguement as you always do - where is the "science to prove it" to avoid addressing some other things I raised.

That is 100% political spin tactic

Hi,

Whatever the statements are, there is no spin, tactics, or other etc.

This is an open forum, and ANYONE can post what they like as long as it does not break the forum rules.

If people come here for advice, then it is appropriate that they are aware of all aspects, whether you agree with them or not.

If this is such an issue for you, as I have stated in another thread, you can start your own forum.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Al ears]

So do these cables actually work then or what? Or do some people just think they do and others think they know they don't? *biggrin* *bomb*

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to go and find out for yourself.

They will, of course, make a difference ....... to your bank account especially.

 

[ellisdj]

Its clearly been an issue for someone in this thread. I think the chap who started the thread even. Is that something you condone?

So your stand point is we are driving people away from using the forum but we are within the rules so doing nothing wrong??

Here comes some spin?