Go ask the pixies at the end of your garden what they think. They know all there is to know about cables.
Gazzip said:
Surely tarnished is not great when you buy something expensive for its ornamental value.
Oldphrt said:
Oldphrt, come on. Why can't you just accept that in life people will make choices that you do not agree with.
You clearly have knowledge and from that tell us that you know these cables make no difference. That's great and you make your own personal choices from that. But why do you feel the need to mock others with constant sarcasm just because they don't follow the same path as you? This won't make a jot of difference to you as ultimately we are just sat behind a computer and you can type what ever you please. I just hope in real life you are slightly more open minded towards people that don't agree with you.
Gazzip
Well-known member
chebby
Well-known member
chrisrock said:
Why does it seem to me that that is such a bad thing from this thread?
Thanks Gazzip for your BBC link. It certainly highlights the post truth / post knowledge world we are entering into.
I just hope the contempt for those with actual scientifc knowledge displayed throughout these cable threads doesn't extend to the pilots of the jets you travel on (and those who build them), the nurses, doctors and surgeons who save your lives, the people who designed the structures you live in and depend on, the competencies and knowledge of thousands of people every day who are keeping society working from the tube tunnels and drains to the GPS and communications satellites.
None of this stuff works on 'feelings' or personal opinions. It all works only by getting it right. At the very least please check your third-party mains products are BS1363 tested and approved and request confirmation from the manufacturer if it's not clear. (And check it has an appropriately rated fuse fitted.)
drummerman said:
Granted, that knowledge is yet to be shared. I just assume that such adamancy in his opinion can only be based on knowledge.
I have attempted a couple of times to explain the engineering behind mains cables, but have been blocked by the spam filter.
Are others having these problems?
Are others having these problems?
chebby said:
Chebby I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I certainly don't think that knowledge is a bad thing. I started this thread in search of it and mentioned in my op that treads I have previously read ultimately took the same tone as this one. When someone offers their knowledge and experience I totally appreciate that, especially as they have take time time out to help a faceless stranger. I like to read knowledge/opinion from both sides of the fence, but my frustration with Oldphrt's comments is that they offer zero experience/knowledge and seem to mock those who talk positively of power cables. If someone wants to say they don't/can't work then I welcome that, but please don't put that point of view across with constant sarcasm as in the main people don't like it.
It would be interesting to find out if there were a correlation between those believing in cable differences and Trump supporters. They both seem to deny anything remorely connected with facts - alt-facts and alt-news. All members of the alt-right, perhaps?
avole said:
There are a lot of good people on this forum who have a genuine interest in all things HiFi and helping others. I have read a few comments recently about how this forum has gone downhill and less people take part. Well from my point of view that is because if people like this. I posted looking for help and have received some, but too many people hide behind their screens and post rubbish like this (no doubt in an attempt to get some soft arse like me to bite). it doesn't inspire me to remain an active member here as my sense of humour and maturity isn't on an even keel with this.
chrisrock said:
It is based on knowledge, yes. I did a long post on the technical reasons for mains leads not affecting sound but it was rejected as spam. Think about this. No trace of the mains 240V 50Hz waveform can be heard on any hifi amplifier, so there is therefore no mechanism for a mains wire to be able to affect performance.
chris_bates1974
Well-known member
OK, I'm not knowledgeable on this at all... My power cables came with the boxes, my interconnects were hand-made by the guy who owned the hifi shop the amp came from, and the speaker cables were recommended by him when I bought my first "proper" system.
I'm a scientist by profesison, and so I do undertsand the matra of "it transmits current, and therefore all will sound the same,if they transmit the required current" but I also live with musicians. Despite their bows (for cello), and reeds (for oboes and bassoons) all appearing pretty much identical, I do know they are all different, even if only slightly.
Surely then, if different materials are used in the construction of various cables, they would be able to have an effect?
Whether that effect is noticeable/good/bad/large/small is the question. I've seen nothing from either of the warring parties on here to convince me either way.
And as for those demanding "measurements" (which as I scientist I would, in theory, be very happy about).... how does one measure "that sounds good"?
I'm sure some of you will now take great pleasure in ripping apart some of things I've said. I'd remind you of this. I've not stated that I know anything for sure, and I've not insulted anyone. So please, keep it nice!
I'm a scientist by profesison, and so I do undertsand the matra of "it transmits current, and therefore all will sound the same,if they transmit the required current" but I also live with musicians. Despite their bows (for cello), and reeds (for oboes and bassoons) all appearing pretty much identical, I do know they are all different, even if only slightly.
Surely then, if different materials are used in the construction of various cables, they would be able to have an effect?
Whether that effect is noticeable/good/bad/large/small is the question. I've seen nothing from either of the warring parties on here to convince me either way.
And as for those demanding "measurements" (which as I scientist I would, in theory, be very happy about).... how does one measure "that sounds good"?
I'm sure some of you will now take great pleasure in ripping apart some of things I've said. I'd remind you of this. I've not stated that I know anything for sure, and I've not insulted anyone. So please, keep it nice!
chrisrock said:
Hi ChrisRock - I have been saying about this for ages and I got scrutinised for trying to only allow people with a similar to view to me to be active members when the opposite is true.
However you have been honest and stated how peoples postings have made you feel about being a member on this forum and its exactly as I thought it would be and its completely wrong.
Thanks for doing it and sorry you feel that way, it shouldnt be like that on here.
chris_bates1974 said:
As a scientist you surely must know that a mains cable can't change performance.
chris_bates1974 said:
Chris,
As you have rightly pointed out, measuring 'good' is a problem. However science is very good at measuring a difference.
This cable debate has been going on for years. So much so, a few years ago a paper was presented the to AES describing 'audiodiffmaker', software that would accutately compare 'before' and 'after', and produce a difference file that could be played.
In the case of cables, one would play a piece of music (it had to be a CD or digitally sourced, turntables are too flaky to be repeatable) through the equipment under test and record the output. The cable in question was then substituted and the same piece of music played again and recorded.
The software would time align and amplitude match the two recordings, producing a difference file. No difference, then the difference file would be silent.
A great idea, and the hope was that it would be generally accepted across the HiFi world. It turned out that an objective, repeatable, incontrovertible test was the last thing the industry or magazines wanted.
What if the emperor had no clothes?
chris_bates1974
Well-known member
Andyjm, that does indeed sound like a good test.
For me, it seems rather obvious that there should (in theory) be no difference as long as the current is carried. But as I stated before, I'd not be surprised if something in the way the cable is constructed makes some kind of difference. I don't know how or why! I had no idea I was this flaky!!!
I could show you 2 of my daughter's oboe reeds and you would not be able to tell them apart. but, when played, they would make the instrument sound like two different instruments.
Of course, ultimately, I don't really care what the "right" answer is. When my hifi stops putting a smile on my face, I'll change something. Whatever it is that puts the smile back will win. I'm open to that being pretty much anything.
Apart from Russ Andrews Disc Magic Wonder Box.
For me, it seems rather obvious that there should (in theory) be no difference as long as the current is carried. But as I stated before, I'd not be surprised if something in the way the cable is constructed makes some kind of difference. I don't know how or why! I had no idea I was this flaky!!!
I could show you 2 of my daughter's oboe reeds and you would not be able to tell them apart. but, when played, they would make the instrument sound like two different instruments.
Of course, ultimately, I don't really care what the "right" answer is. When my hifi stops putting a smile on my face, I'll change something. Whatever it is that puts the smile back will win. I'm open to that being pretty much anything.
Apart from Russ Andrews Disc Magic Wonder Box.
chrisrock said:
Chris, I generally try to keep my posts on an even keel, but I do understand the frustration of those with a technical background when confronted by some of the nonsense that gets posted on forums like this.
The challenge is that the internet a great leveler - you have no idea whether the person posting has a technical background and knows what he is talking about, or is typing away in his underpants wearing a tin foil hat - and as my mother used to say 'empty vessels make the most noise'.
If you are genuinely interested in this subject and want to understand the technical basis for the hobby, you have probably come to the wrong place. Start by googling 'suggestion bias' 'double blind testing' and 'psychology of perception' to get a feel whether the mantra on here of 'trust your ears' is a good basis for comparison.
I come on here to try to point those interested in the hobby in the right direction, and for a bit of sport. To paraphrase Edmund Burke "All that is takes for pseudo science to flourish is that good men do nothing".
andyjm said:
There it is right there in print - that there is for me where the problem with this forum starts
You dont need a technical background to understand how to make an audio system sound good.
You dont need a technical background to post an opinion on this forum about audio systems
Not every opinion needs to be challenged by someone who is from a technical background thinking they are righting the wrongs of the audio world / comnunity
Its this attitude that puts people off using this forum - you can dress it up any way you like but its the same end result. You have just seen someone post to prove that is how the activity on this forum made them feel - how many people have felt it also but not posted about it and never posted again...
andyjm said:
A lot of the nonsense about wires is perpetuated by the mags themselves, including this one, sadly.
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