wiring one speaker out of phase

[bigfish786]

i'm having a few hours in front of the hifi for my last evening with the marantz, and as a bit of an experiment i wired one speaker out of phase. purely out of curiosity as i am a persistant meddler with all things hifi.
i was kind of hoping to hear a drop in sound quality, basically to assure myself i had them wired up "right" .
only, i had the opposite happen. the music now has more body and more punchy bass. so, yeah... pop another can of worms open!!
can someone explain whats happened, and should i do the same to the other speaker or just leave them as is. it does sound good, just gon't want to fry anything!

 

[Gray]

should i do the same to the other speaker

If you do that you'll be back in phase.

Convention would suggest you've been out of phase until now (based on the improvement you've described).

 

[bigfish786]

yeah, thats what i have been thinking.
i even got the wife involved. and any audiophool knows, if the wife hears it, then its real.

 

[Gray]

Let's hope you haven't been out of phase all along 😵‍💫

Having said that - the day I set my PM-66KI amp up to demo it to a buyer......it was the best I'd ever heard it 😐

 

[bigfish786]

You know when you spend hours and hours just questioning yourself and go through everything to make sure everything is right, been there, done that, but I don’t know what came into my head, it was just one of those “I’ll just check and see” moments. Hoping I’d got it right, rather than wrong.
but, everything seems better now.
could this be a case of the internal wiring of the speaker being wrong?

 

[WayneKerr]

Not sure if my memory is serving me correctly but didn't you have trouble with one of the cones when you got them - it needed replacing? If this wasn't you then apologies.

 

[Gray]

could this be a case of the internal wiring of the speaker being wrong?

You'd really like to think not - but you've double checked the external wiring,
....so it's a possibility.

2 ways to check:

1) Best way - An internal visual check - of the wiring from terminals, via crossover to drivers.

2) An easier quick check is to give the speaker a half-second pulse from a 1.5volt battery - just on the LF terminals with links removed.
From that you could (clearly) see the initial movement of the cone. (+ of battery to + terminal of speaker to show forward cone movement on L and R).

1) Would give complete confirmation.
2) Wouldn't tell you anything about tweeter phasing.

Wouldn't blame you for preferring not to check 👍

.....but it will nag away at you if you don't 👹

 

[Gray]

Not sure if my memory is serving me correctly but didn't you have trouble with one of the cones when you got them - it needed replacing? If this wasn't you then apologies.

That would explain things.

I seem to remember someone on the forum did once report incorrect internal wiring on one of his speakers - as unlikely as it sounds.

 

[bigfish786]

The cone i replaced was a cosmetic issue. Easily replaced. The top driver on the speaker is still very stiff even after 10 months of use. My minor issues have always been with the bottom end and the fullness of the music. Detail has been there, everything has been there, it just didn’t gel.
this little swap over seems to (at the moment) have resolved what had been nagging away at me. Making me consider other amplification etc.

 

[Gray]

this little swap over seems to (at the moment) have resolved what had been nagging away at me.

You reversed the polarity on one speaker and it increased the bass fullness.
Then either you really were previously out of phase.
Or now that you've put them out of phase, you've corrected a bass suckout caused by the specifics of your room / positioning.

You can't be judging any new amp (or condemning the old one) till you get to the bottom of that can you?

 

[bigfish786]

No, I agree totally.
but tonight is my last night with my Marantz amp and cd so I will have to see how the speakers perform with the next one.I’ve got an arcam a70 as a backup which will be in there tomorrow evening.

 

[twinkletoes]

It’s an old trick, sometimes the speakers are out phase in the room, sometimes it’s from factory weather that be internal wiring that’s wrong or the cone has been incorrectly assembled.

It’s why subs have a phase switch the good one have a variable phase knob.

 

[Gray]

sometimes it’s from factory

Should never be from the factory.
(Certainly not the ones I wired at MA).
Would be proof of no final test - and completely unforgivable.

I think the only case we've had on this forum was a secondhand buy where a previous owner had been tampering within

 

[AJM1981]

i'm having a few hours in front of the hifi for my last evening with the marantz, and as a bit of an experiment i wired one speaker out of phase. purely out of curiosity as i am a persistant meddler with all things hifi.
i was kind of hoping to hear a drop in sound quality, basically to assure myself i had them wired up "right" .
only, i had the opposite happen. the music now has more body and more punchy bass. so, yeah... pop another can of worms open!!
can someone explain whats happened, and should i do the same to the other speaker or just leave them as is. it does sound good, just gon't want to fry anything!

When producing music and having a duplicate of the same sample running on both channels of left and right speakers in full panorama, a minor shift or effect difference on one side might enhance the "stereo effect" .

I am guessing that this polarity shift creates a little extra tension between the left and right channel. Not as intended by the producer, but perhaps fun for a while.

 

[bigfish786]

I was wondering if it could be something as simple as the speaker cable, and that the banana plugs were put on wrong. They are factory terminated chord company Clearway cables, bought second hand off eBay. It could have been the reason why they were selling them?

 

[AJM1981]

I was wondering if it could be something as simple as the speaker cable, and that the banana plugs were put on wrong. They are factory terminated chord company Clearway cables, bought second hand off eBay. It could have been the reason why they were selling them?

It should be fairly easy to check, follow the single wire. The color you connect is just a guide and really doesn't matter if you connect black to black or red to the black points at both places as long as the consistancy of having point to point with the same wire.

When you connect red at the amp to black at the speaker and vice versa, you're shifting polarity. Which actually can help improving the consistency of the output in really specific situations, for example when placing speakers at your back in a 5.1 setup, especially 5.1 with stereo listening might be perceived as more uniform with the two back speakers configured that way. They recommend doing a 180 polarity shift with a sub behind the seating point as well.

 

[plastic penguin]

No, I agree totally.
but tonight is my last night with my Marantz amp and cd so I will have to see how the speakers perform with the next one.I’ve got an arcam a70 as a backup which will be in there tomorrow evening.

I'm confused. Are you saying there's something afoot with the MF, and the Marantz is sounding better?

 

[Gray]

It should be fairly easy to check, follow the single wire.

That would work on many cables - but have a look at the cable in question - unfortunately you cannot visually follow the single wires.
Electrical continuity testing is the definitive confirmation

 

[Gray]

I was wondering if it could be something as simple as the speaker cable, and that the banana plugs were put on wrong. They are factory terminated chord company Clearway cables, bought second hand off eBay. It could have been the reason why they were selling them?

Are you still doubting the phase Bigfish?
You must be in no doubt.
If you've got a multimeter, set it to resistance and test the continuity from red plug one end to red plug the other - on each of the two cables.
The cable is most unlikely to be wrongly terminated.

 

[bigfish786]

I'm confused. Are you saying there's something afoot with the MF, and the Marantz is sounding better?

no, the Marantz have been sold, the MF are amazing. It was just general curiosity of why the speakers were out of phase.

 

[bigfish786]

Are you still doubting the phase Bigfish?
You must be in no doubt.
If you've got a multimeter, set it to resistance and test the continuity from red plug one end to red plug the other - on each of the two cables.
The cable is most unlikely to be wrongly terminated.

I don’t have a multi meter, but will look into it.

 

[plastic penguin]

no, the Marantz have been sold, the MF are amazing. It was just general curiosity of why the speakers were out of phase.

I've never tried to switch the colours of cables around. Only once did I connect them out of phase - this was years ago when I was a Arcamer.

The sound difference was fairly subtle IIRC.

 

[James105]

I'm thinking if your speakers where wired out of phase you'd have a "hole" in the centre of your soundstage

 

[bigfish786]

I had a lack of bass at average levels. If I pushed the volume the bass was there. As it is, it sounds great. Only my OCD is driving me crazy.

 

[nopiano]

I had a lack of bass at average levels. If I pushed the volume the bass was there. As it is, it sounds great. Only my OCD is driving me crazy.

I've lost track - are you now wired up 'normally' or not?