WHY NOT STUDIO MONITORS 4 MUZIC?

[chebby]

makes me wonder if the various amp manufacturers are being a tad greedy?

They have to make amps that will cope with (almost) every loudspeaker a future customer may want to throw at it, without knowing in advance what loads they are going to present. They also have to make bespoke cases (milled aero grade alloys etc.) and - increasingly - have to make the insides pretty too, for all those reviewers and users who are 'knowledgable' about boutique components and attractive circuit layouts.

There are also a plethora of connections to be provided for every imaginable source. These - and the loudspeaker terminals - need to be very 'showy' because people want the backs of their amps to be as pretty as their boutique cables.

An amp built into an active loudspeaker cabinet doesn't have to be designed to cope with more than one kind of loudspeaker, it doesn't need an expensive case, it only needs one connection (for a preamp) and nosey punters are less likely to tear the thing apart to see how good looking the innards are or whether their favourite 'cult' capacitors are present.

 

[Anonymous]

Also the point made previously about B&W, Nautilus is used in studios as a reference monitor.

I think, without succombing to all the AVI rhetoric, we as an industry should learn a few things from our pro cousins. After all, the music is the end result. Isn't that what matters?

In the mastering studio where our album was completed, (a studio frequented by the likes of Jarvis Cocker et al) they used B&W 801s ( also in a surround setup for soundtracks and SACDs). Several months later I had the great opportunity to interview a very famous guitarist in his own studio, which is also used for other established (very famous) recording artists, who have very high reputations for recording quality (I have seen WHFSV use their discs as reference discs in the past). What monitors did he use? .....B&W 801s.

Studios will also have "grot boxes" - and listen/check the sound in mono - as the great majority of us actually end up listening in non-stereo-sweetspot situations (bathroom radio, driver seat of car etc).

Abbey road used B&W 801 Matrix' years ago. What do they use now? B&W 800 Diamonds, amplified with Chord SPM-14000B monoblocks. So how anyone can attack the 800 series having a lack of anything is beyond me. Several of the big EMI-owned studios in the USA use the B&W Nautilus. And these are the best studios in the world.

 

[chebby]

Abbey road used B&W 801 Matrix' years ago. What do they use now? B&W 800 Diamonds, amplified with Chord SPM-14000B monoblocks.

We can see the B&W 800 Diamonds and Classe amps here...

http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/Images/MediaImages/large/Explore--Abbey--Banner.jpg

and here...

http://www.classeaudio.com/images/abbey-rd-classe-2-large.jpg

 

[Native_bon]

How do u get the message through 2 some people. We talking about ratio of price 2 performance... Active Monitors more than out perform passive speakers 20times over... It does not go 2 say that they are not better speakers out there.. It make no sense buying something 30times the price or more For just very little difference in performance...

I think the reason most people dont go 4 Active monitors cause they are not aware of it. Cosmetic design is one reason as well.. Not much design goes in Active studio monitors... Hifi speakers tend 2 look much better.

Seems we have moved from house use 4 muzic now to the very top.. Seem the discusion have gone 2 the best money can buy...

For home use, Most people will like good value 4 money... Thats the piont of this discussion. Yes some like 2 see there amp, cables cd player are stacked up.

Again active monitors will out perform speaker & amp combo At the same price piont any time any day.

 

[chebby]

How do u get the message through 2 some people.

Maybe by dropping the faux texting style and calling 'muzic' music.

 

[songox]

Native_bon again im trying to tell u the experiance i had with KRKs on which i spent 1400 euros with the sub! r they the ones u have? so if i use my onkyo reciever and the bx5 for stereo monitoring + sub value 1500 euros in my opinion i get slightly more detail across top to bottom a specialy bottom! so what makes u think that ur set up woud be better than a passive one that costs 30 times more?

 

[Native_bon]

Because i got a studio & i record & produce muzic & it is a well knw fact In the muzic indusrty u can not get the same performance From amp/speaker combo that u will get from Active monitors... of the same price piont.

Well we can agree 2 disagree. But people reading this thread should go out there & listen 4 themselves. Only the ears will tell the facts.. hope people go out there & come back 2 us with the facts.

 

[Native_bon]

Because i got a studio & i record & produce muzic & it is a well knw fact In the muzic indusrty u can not get the same performance From amp/speaker combo that u will get from Active monitors... of the same price piont.

Well we can agree 2 disagree. But people reading this thread should go out there & listen 4 themselves. Only the ears will tell the facts.. hope people go out there & come back 2 us with the facts.

The piont am trying 2 make it out performs Speaker/amp combo.. Am not saying the amp/speaker combo will not perform better but u have 2spend so much more... It not justifable at all. thats all.

 

[songox]

so which monitors have u got? at the start u said there KRK VXT8 and latter u said that there Rokit? there two different speakers Rokit is a budget monitor and VXT is the higher end!

 

[Anonymous]

makes me wonder if the various amp manufacturers are being a tad greedy?

They have to make amps that will cope with (almost) every loudspeaker a future customer may want to throw at it, without knowing in advance what loads they are going to present. They also have to make bespoke cases (milled aero grade alloys etc.) and - increasingly - have to make the insides pretty too, for all those reviewers and users who are 'knowledgable' about boutique components and attractive circuit layouts.

There are also a plethora of connections to be provided for every imaginable source. These - and the loudspeaker terminals - need to be very 'showy' because people want the backs of their amps to be as pretty as their boutique cables.

An amp built into an active loudspeaker cabinet doesn't have to be designed to cope with more than one kind of loudspeaker, it doesn't need an expensive case, it only needs one connection (for a preamp) and nosey punters are less likely to tear the thing apart to see how good looking the innards are or whether their favourite 'cult' capacitors are present.

i don't see how it's any easier to make amplification for a given active speaker? surely it's more difficult given the space restrictions? yes there's less connections but a decent quality dac is included.

and in the case of the dyn 110a, said amplification would drive most any speaker, even the less costly avi's have built in amplification that's far more powerful than most amplifiers.

 

[Andrew Everard]

yes there's less connections but a decent quality dac is included.

Most active speakers don't have onboard digital-to-analogue conversion.

 

[idc]

How do u get the message through 2 some people. We talking about ratio of price 2 performance... Active Monitors more than out perform passive speakers 20times over... It does not go 2 say that they are not better speakers out there.. It make no sense buying something 30times the price or more For just very little difference in performance...

I think the reason most people dont go 4 Active monitors cause they are not aware of it. Cosmetic design is one reason as well.. Not much design goes in Active studio monitors... Hifi speakers tend 2 look much better.

Seems we have moved from house use 4 muzic now to the very top.. Seem the discusion have gone 2 the best money can buy...

For home use, Most people will like good value 4 money... Thats the piont of this discussion. Yes some like 2 see there amp, cables cd player are stacked up.

Again active monitors will out perform speaker & amp combo At the same price piont any time any day.

Sound quality is subjective. How a system fits in with people's lifestyles and living rooms is different for eveyone. We appreciate the information on whatever monitors it is you have and tips on saving money, but don't waste time ranting at people who disagree with you or have chosen a different way from you.

I personally think that headphones out perform all speakers at all price points, monitors included. I have two AKG headphones designed for studio use, the K702 and K271 MkII, the latter can be had for £100. That beats monitors any day. But headphones do not suit everyone and all listening environments.

 

[Anonymous]

yes there's less connections but a decent quality dac is included.

Most active speakers don't have onboard digital-to-analogue conversion.

my mistake, i seem to recall reading that all you need for active speakers is a digital source, i think it was on some AVI thread.

 

[chebby]

i don't see how it's any easier to make amplification for a given active speaker? surely it's more difficult given the space restrictions? yes there's less connections but a decent quality dac is included.

Because the amp is tailor made for one particular speaker and isn't expected to drive everything from small, very inefficient, sealed enclosure, bookshelf speakers to large, efficient, multi-way, reflex ported floorstanders and everything in between. Nor will a bespoke active amp & crossover have to face any unknown impedances or any other unknown variables.

"A decent quality DAC" is only included on one active speaker system made by one small volume, specialist manufacturer (to my knowledge). Despite it's fame, it only represents a tiny percentage of active speaker systems sold worldwide.

You have also ignored the all important case or 'box'. Expensive stand-alone amps tend to have very expensively finished cases and controls. An active speaker's built in amp doesn't need that because most of it is never seen.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I have never heard of any active speaker using pure class A amplification which is purer than A/B or D

You haven't seen the ATC active specs then?

as far as I know they are A/B. see specs on their web site.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

isn't an active speaker essentially a bi-amped regular speaker? albeit with the required amount of current/power.

no

 

[edplaysdrums42]

How do u get the message through 2 some people. We talking about ratio of price 2 performance... Active Monitors more than out perform passive speakers 20times over... It does not go 2 say that they are not better speakers out there.. It make no sense buying something 30times the price or more For just very little difference in performance...

I think the reason most people dont go 4 Active monitors cause they are not aware of it. Cosmetic design is one reason as well.. Not much design goes in Active studio monitors... Hifi speakers tend 2 look much better.

Seems we have moved from house use 4 muzic now to the very top.. Seem the discusion have gone 2 the best money can buy...

For home use, Most people will like good value 4 money... Thats the piont of this discussion. Yes some like 2 see there amp, cables cd player are stacked up.

Again active monitors will out perform speaker & amp combo At the same price piont any time any day.

Thats not what you put on your original post, you seem to be back tracking somewhat. FWIW if i had the funds i'd have some ATC actives but i'm more than happy with my set up. Maybe get some more headphones though

 

[Anonymous]

How do u get the message through 2 some people. We talking about ratio of price 2 performance... Active Monitors more than out perform passive speakers 20times over... It does not go 2 say that they are not better speakers out there.. It make no sense buying something 30times the price or more For just very little difference in performance...

I think the reason most people dont go 4 Active monitors cause they are not aware of it. Cosmetic design is one reason as well.. Not much design goes in Active studio monitors... Hifi speakers tend 2 look much better.

Seems we have moved from house use 4 muzic now to the very top.. Seem the discusion have gone 2 the best money can buy...

For home use, Most people will like good value 4 money... Thats the piont of this discussion. Yes some like 2 see there amp, cables cd player are stacked up.

Again active monitors will out perform speaker & amp combo At the same price piont any time any day.

Go listen to a set of ProAc studio 130's through an MF A3 then tell me you'd take your active monitors over this killer £900 combo. System matching is vital, I think you just haven't heard a very well matched system.

To whoever linked the pictures of the B&W/Classe at abbey road, that was what they used pre-800D, luckily enough I have heard their 802N and 800D setups, both just completely other-worldly.

 

[WishTree]

I managed to read almost all the comments on this thread!

IMO, Monitors (be it active or passive) are to give uncolored, true to the source signal out. Most often than not, many people might not like such faithful reproduction. This is good for a Sound recordist but he might not really have the same at home where he really intends to enjoy the music.

I guess, we all are trying to enjoy the music at home which I think we look for the way the music gets a slight hue which makes it more fun to listen.

My Pathos + Proac is warm-sweet but not extremely dynamic when compared to the Rotel gear that I had before. My friend prefers the dynamic extremes with a tad brightness at the top. He is happy with his set up and I am more than happy with mine. We tried some studio monitors in a music shop (may be from M-Audio or Behringer) and they were too much in face.

I am sure there are some of us who like the presentation of the active monitors and even more, they reduce the hassle of buying a matching amp with great VFM.

However for people like me, when I could not find my desired coloration of music either in AVI or other powered speakers or even the regular amp + speakers, I kept on changing till I like it !

Just in case if any one is wondering, the desired coloration is not only individual specific but also individual specific at a particular time slice, which makes people change their system after few years and I guess we should not confuse this with upgraditis as there is only a borderline difference (and I think I am switching lanes often

)

 

[FennerMachine]

Good post WishTree.

I've done a fare bit of tweaking to my system recently as it was too clinical. Loved it for years but fancied a change. After a change of speakers & going to a pre-amp over 10 years older than the one I had I'm now happy again.

Some look for outright pure clarity, other want something to soothe & chill out to.

Everyone is different so not everyone would like the sound of professional monitors.

 

[CnoEvil]

I managed to read almost all the comments on this thread!

IMO, Monitors (be it active or passive) are to give uncolored, true to the source signal out. Most often than not, many people might not like such faithful reproduction. This is good for a Sound recordist but he might not really have the same at home where he really intends to enjoy the music.

I guess, we all are trying to enjoy the music at home which I think we look for the way the music gets a slight hue which makes it more fun to listen.

My Pathos + Proac is warm-sweet but not extremely dynamic when compared to the Rotel gear that I had before. My friend prefers the dynamic extremes with a tad brightness at the top. He is happy with his set up and I am more than happy with mine. We tried some studio monitors in a music shop (may be from M-Audio or Behringer) and they were too much in face.

I am sure there are some of us who like the presentation of the active monitors and even more, they reduce the hassle of buying a matching amp with great VFM.

However for people like me, when I could not find my desired coloration of music either in AVI or other powered speakers or even the regular amp + speakers, I kept on changing till I like it !

Just in case if any one is wondering, the desired coloration is not only individual specific but also individual specific at a particular time slice, which makes people change their system after few years and I guess we should not confuse this with upgraditis as there is only a borderline difference (and I think I am switching lanes often

)

Agreed.

An Active speaker is only good value if you like the sound of it. Definitive statements on subjective subjects will always lead to arguements.

 

[Andrew Everard]

my mistake, i seem to recall reading that all you need for active speakers is a digital source, i think it was on some AVI thread.

Quite possibly it was, as that company's best-known active speakers have a DAC built-in. But you really can't make generalisations from specifics, max...

 

[Native_bon]

Well u cant eat ur cake & have it. U either when Hifi sound or u want coloured sound.. true hifi sound should be true 2 what goes through it. I have ears & i make use of them. Yes it is a matter of taste but i will stand my what i have said 2 the very end. generally speak monitors out perform Amp/speaker combo of same price point.

No matter what u say the prove is in the listening. Ok i will put my head out & say a good £500 active studio monitor will out perform a £1400 speaker/amp combo! By that i mean hands down!!

 

[CnoEvil]

Well u cant eat ur cake & have it. U either when Hifi sound or u want coloured sound.. true hifi sound should be true 2 what goes through it. I have ears & i make use of them. Yes it is a matter of taste but i will stand my what i have said 2 the very end. generally speak monitors out perform Amp/speaker combo of same price point.

No matter what u say the prove is in the listening. Ok i will put my head out & say a good £500 active studio monitor will out perform a £1400 speaker/amp combo! By that i mean hands down!!

The needs of a recording studio (accuracy) can be quite different to the individual (enjoyment).

The two might meet up more often, if a much higher percentage of the mastering sounded significantly better. I like the music that I hear to be life-like and realistic and not migrane inducing ie. It's the Neutral vs Natural debate.

The other problem is who is going to be the arbitor of your challenge....all studios use speakers that they believe will give them accuracy; eg. some use ATC, some B&W and others Kef Reference(Trutone Mastering Labs, Octavia Records, Anvil Post Production House), yet all these sound different....meaning its very difficult to know how it should sound in the first place.

 

[chebby]

Well u cant eat ur cake & have it.

Yes I can.

U either when Hifi sound or u want coloured sound..

I 'when' (sic) what suits my budget, my room and my tastes in music/drama/documentary/comedy etc. and I want it to look domestically acceptable and not like a refugee from a teenager's bedroom or studio control booth.

Yes it is a matter of taste but i will stand my what i have said 2 the very end.

Standing by what you said is admirable. Repeating it over and over again is tedious.

...a good £500 active studio monitor will out perform a £1400 speaker/amp combo! By that i mean hands down!!

Not so fast.

Active studio monitors still require a pre-amp (in a typical domestic hifi application).

Assuming (as you say) the active speakers are so good, then you will need a commensurately good (and thus expensive) pre-amp to plug sources into and provide volume control/remote, source selection etc. Good pre-amps - at the level of performance you are talking about - are almost as expensive as good integrated amplifiers.

As discussed earlier (by Max and Andrew), only one brand of active speakers have a built in pre-amp and DAC, and even that only provides for one analogue input alongside the digital inputs.

So in 99 percent of cases you will need to compare... active studio monitors + pre-amp vs passive loudspeakers + amplifier ...for parity/fairness.