Where is the proof that different speaker cables sound different?

[Anonymous]

I dont think its fair to run down YE OLDE WIKIpedia .

Wiki is generally regarded as pretty non-biased and factual based ,,,ÿ

Most sensible people looking for reliable information on many subjects start with Wilkipedia, not on internet forums or magazines.

Teachers ,college lecturers, professorsÿand manyÿprofessionals endorse wikipedia ÿas a pretty reliable and fairly accurate source of knowledge.

If you really want to get into the science seriously , The ABX Bibliography would be a good place to start

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_book.htm

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[idc]

drumlins4ever:

Have you read the footnote links on the wiki page , these one's , Wiki don't just pull their facts and figures out of thin air ,

http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

http://procosound.com/downloads/whitepapers/Understanding%20Speaker%20Cables.pdf

The first link is to Elliot Sound Products. It starts of with a philosophical argument as to why cables make no difference to sound based around the proof, or lack of such regarding the existence of God. At one point the writer likens his arguments to a philosophical debate on the cleaning merits of vacuum cleaners. The writer argues you can see one vacuum cleaner works better than another. Well why can I supposedly not then hear the difference between speaker cables? The rest is anecdotal evidence about the placebo effect, which is not convincing science. This paper also refers to blind tests where it acknowledges that some people do hear a difference, hence this debate. If it were truely snake oil there would be apretty much unanimous agreement that there is no difference and the likes of Russ Andrews and Clearewr Audio would be out of business.

The second link is to an uncredited paper about cable anatomy. It talks of the differences in cable construction and the effects of resistance, power, length , RFI and other factors. So, for me it backs up the view that different cables have different properties, so why would they have to sound the same?

 

[Anonymous]

Fun thread. Sacred ground to some. The folks at www.audioholics.com have long had a minor crusade against what they call exaggerated claims. As an engineer (admittedly not an EE) I am enormously skeptical of the exotic claims, which means I use heavy gauge, high quality, inexpensive speaker wire, power cables and interconnects. I certainly go to the extent of ensuring quality materials and quality build, but I'm not interested in swapping Belkin for Cardas ... with the attendant cost. For me, the lack of blind test evidence for an effect is compelling in a market worth millions. However, will acknowledge that there are many things we will never prove that are true, and for those who believe - I take no issue with them. Funny example I saw recently of an old Monster "in store" display comparing 50 foot runs of 12 gauge Monster with a similar run of 18 or 24 gauge wire. Most of us would grant that long runs of low gauge wire are a poor choice for Hi Fi, but to me making comparisons with such an extremely poor choice for a long speaker wire run makes Monster look guilty.

 

[idc]

ted_canuck:Fun thread. Sacred ground to some. The folks at www.audioholics.com have long had a minor crusade against what they call exaggerated claims.

Exactly ted_canuck, exaggerated claims. Cables CAN make a difference, but only a SMALL one which means in my opinion it is not worth spending huge amounts of money, but it is worth spending enough to get a decent quality of cable.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:drumlins4ever:
Have you read the footnote links on the wiki page , these one's , Wiki don't just pull their facts and figures out of thin air ,ÿ

http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

http://procosound.com/downloads/whitepapers/Understanding%20Speaker%20Cables.pdf

The first link is to Elliot Sound Products. It starts of with a philosophical argument as to why cables make no difference to sound based around the proof, or lack of such regarding the existence of God. At one point the writer likens his arguments to a philosophical debate on the cleaning merits of vacuum cleaners. The writer argues you can see one vacuum cleaner works better than another. Well why can I supposedly not then hear the difference between speaker cables? The rest is anecdotal evidence about the placebo effect, which is not convincing science. This paper also refers to blind tests where it acknowledges that some people do hear a difference, hence this debate. If it were truely snake oil there would be apretty much unanimous agreement that there is no difference and the likes of Russ Andrews and Clearewr Audio would be out of business.

The second link is to an uncredited paper about cable anatomy. Itÿtalks of the differences in cable construction and the effects of resistance, power, length , RFI and other factors. So, forÿme it backs up the view that different cables have different properties, so why would theyÿhave to sound the same?

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I'm not sure you understand how double blind tests work , 50% of people guessing the expensive cable is a terrible result , no better than what deaf people would guess.

That article was written on careful examination of many double blind tests.ÿ

You could try double blind testing yourself with help from some friends and a good room properly set up.

 

[Sc00bied00]

Interesting read, is the end result not supposed to be about enjoying your music, be it on a budget system with bell wire or a £100K all singing and dancing one....

In blind tests are the individuals hearing tested prior to the audition i.e they can all hear the full audio spectrum. If they can't should their opinion be discounted from hearing a difference between one cable and another, on the basis they don't have perfect hearing - measured and plotted. Does ASIMO hear ? maybe we should ask him along for some blind testing... Oh no... wait....what damned microphone does he have....

If there were no differences, would people / different companies exist to produce an alternative product, and would there be any be point in trying to improve upon something which should already be 'right'. If people only have a 5 second hearing memory then how can we recognise a voice on the end of a piece of bell wire when we haven't spoken to them since last week and that was in person.

Why do people still prefer anologue vinyl with it's pops, clicks etc over digital, why do some prefer Valve amps, why do some prefer speaker X to Y using the same cable. Why do some people prefer Nissan to Rover, it's still an engine in a box on four wheels that gets you from A-B. The argument / discussion / debate will never end as long as we are human.

I'm all for go have a listen, if you like and if you feel parting with the cash is worth it, then it's your decision based on your ears. But wait I get home and it sounds different

back to the drawing board....err... I mean shop. Just MHO... no offence

 

[Anonymous]

Monster know what they're doing! The point at which deterioration of sound in a simple cable enters the audible spectrum for humans is about the 50ft mark.

Anyone for 100ft of Chord Company Signature?

 

[Anonymous]

Very interesting thread, very nice to have contribution from audio/sound professionals, all that is missing is some input from some of the manufacturers. I spent about 1hr at the Bristol Show at the indoor demo by The Chord Company where groups of 12-15 people got to experience a wide selection of their products (interconnects and speaker cables) at the hands of their commercial director, I believe. All I can say is that, yes, most of us could hear a difference between, say, the first "basic" cable test and the most expensive one tried on. For non-professional ears, it appears to me that it is sometimes difficult to qualify and describe where the difference in sound lies, or even where it is if there is a difference to start with. Unfortunately, during that particular demo, we got made to listen to different pieces of music for each cable, so IMO it makes the comparing between cables and I/C even harder but there you go.... Just my 2p worth. And yes, you can call me "believer". lol

 

[Andrew Everard]

Can someone hurry up and mention psychoacoustics, snake oil and The Amazing Randi, and then we can wrap all this up and get on with the rest of the day...

 

[chebby]

You forgot Peter Belt.

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing wrong with bell wire........for ringing bells!

Soak them in extra virgin olive oil and put them uncoiled in the deep freezer for 6 mths, and amazingly they still work, the door bell has a lovely ring to it. Sound good on the speakers too, gets rid of that boomy bass, really brings the cymbals out.

(Will that do Andrew?)

 

[Anonymous]

Trevor, have you tried soaking the speakers themselves in extra-virgin cold-pressed olive oil with just a hint of oregano and garlic?

Magic!

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds tasty, should I use a french stick, basil and balsamic as well?
Got some nice red wine knocking about, I find that is a decent upgrade to the music, especially late at night.

Is this a placebo effect?

 

[idc]

drumlins4ever:I'm not sure you understand how double blind tests work , 50% of people guessing the expensive cable is a terrible result , no better than what deaf people would guess.

That article was written on careful examination of many double blind tests.

You could try double blind testing yourself with help from some friends and a good room properly set up.

Hi drumlins4ever. First can I say how much I am enjoying this thread and the comments it has produced. (Ignore Mr Everard, he has been here 100 times before, gets bored easily and is the camp of cables do make a difference!) This has been about the best speaker cable debate I have read so far.

Regarding blind tests, I have experienced such tests, though on a very minor scale - I use my wife, at home and when we have gone out to audition kit! With regards to the attenuated interconnect and speaker cable changes I made, she could hear the improvement without seeing what I had done. I also had a blind test regards amps in a hifi shop once. Not very scientific, but since I could also hear a difference that second opinion from the wife was enough to at least convince her. I will blind test her with the PSU change I plan for my amp next.

OK, so 50% for an expensive cable is a poor result but it is a similar result to blind wine tasting (see Oz and James' Wine Adventures) and beauty product tests (see Look Good Naked) where expensive products are often beaten by cheap ones. But the bottom line for manufacturers is that 50% of people is still a market worth chasing and if 50% of the people are happy and the others are not affected, where is the harm?

 

[8009514]

If anyone has back catalogues of WHF dating back to the 1985 - 1989 era there is an article relating to speaker cable comparisns. There were about half a dozen speaker cables tested (not so many around in those days) and thrown in amongst them was ordinary mains cable. I believe they were 'blind tested' and the results, as far as I can remember showed that the mains cable faired pretty well. Think it ended up midway in the list of preference.

I know technology has moved on a bit since then, but the results seemed to have some relevance in those days.

 

[Anonymous]

8009514:
If anyone has back catalogues of WHF dating back to the 1985 - 1989 era there is an article relating to speaker cable comparisns. There were about half a dozen speaker cables tested (not so many around in those days) and thrown in amongst them was ordinary mains cable. I believe they were 'blind tested' and the results, as far as I can remember showed that the mains cable faired pretty well. Think it ended up midway in the list of preference.

I know technology has moved on a bit since then, but the results seemed to have some relevance in those days.

I think it was reading those that made me change my speaker wires from 5A cable to 79 strand. What a difference!

 

[Sc00bied00]

I used to have 3 years worth of HFN mags from my early days, cable testing was done in this as well, it was an article about mains cable supplied with amps etc that prompted me to open up an Sony Tuner and solder in some solid core 2.5 T&E and remove the fuse and bridge the plug etc, it made a solid improvement and on such a budget piece of equipment. Running same 2.5 T&E to the meridan M20's also gained improvements. I also remember trying out some VDH carbon fibre interconnects that were a big improvement but the cost was beyond me at the time. Like idc I also use my better half for blind testing, usually do something and await the Q's regarding any change. I still use TDK 'digital noise absorbers' on interconnects, just like what was supplied with my Pio TV for the mains lead. I even bought into the green ring thing on CD's with those sticky backed shaped cut outs, anything was worth a try to improve on the reproduced sound, still use spike feet under cd transport and sorbothane feet under the V+. I think each to their own and there's nothing wrong in sharing experience as long as its not rammed down ones throat, and left up to them from that point forward.

 

[Anonymous]

I see this has stirred up quite the hornets nest lol, I genuinely can hear a difference between my QED micro cable and the revelation cable, it's not a revelation but it's definitely there.

 

[Anonymous]

Or try before you buy and make the difference up in your brain to justify silly costs.

I know its a diversion but let me stipulate this again, the same people who will tell you that exotic cables do such and such will also swear blind that a high price HDMI cable will do wonders yet the people who certify cables for the hdmi logo say there are no differences in any of the cables that get the hdmi logo at all. These people are using tools that are more sensitive than the human eye. So again cheaters and cheated carry on.

This morning I turned on my amp and played a few tunes and I could swear that most of the bass had vanished and believe me I have golden ears (I recently located the sound of a Ryan Adams moving on his chair and also heard the engineer rustling eyebrows) I checked connections etc. and then I realised I had 5 hours sleep and my mind was warped thus my brain was interpretating the vibrating air molecules in a sligthly different way to usual. Also boys and girls did you know your sense or tempo can change depending on your stress levels, time of day, lightness in the room and what you have had to eat. CRAZY EH.

One more while Im here....The reason major chords sound happy and natural is because in nature notes dominant harmonics are the 3rd and 5th.

 

[Anonymous]

You continue with your tiresome tirades, is there anything else you can add? perhaps you can draw up a list of acceptable descriptions re the speaker thread to.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry officer of the thought police I wasn't aware the truth offended you so. When you buy a microphone or some studio monitors you get a graph of the frequency response, it lets you know if you can expect the sound to be (for the laity>>>dull bright boomy etc). and gives you some idea of how it will sound in the real world and how it will record music etc. so if I see a microphone has a strong bass roll off around 120 I know it is totally pointless using it to record a kick drum or bass guitar etc. You see because I am trained in the science of sound as opposed to blindly yet pompously spewing garbage I use the terminology of the industry and to be honest what is tiring is that whenever someone goes against the grain with a little alternative insight loyal followers of the fake messiahs use tactics such as the ones you employ to belittle. It is truly sad.

 

[Anonymous]

On the contrary, it is your posts which have displayed a pompous attitude it is clear that you clearly don't agree with what hi fi's descriptions of given products, whether they are speakers, cables etc, so it beckons the question why are you using these forums?. It is you who has decided to be abrasive, it is you who clearly think that others opinions do not count ergo you seem to have made self appointed yourself as the thought police, it is you who is the whose postings are truly sad.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, leave it, in the overall scheme of things it really doesn't matter. There are far more important things than speaker cables to worry about on this planet.

 

[Anonymous]

Forged aboud it. If you wanna, you wanna. If you don wanna forged aboud it. Comperende?

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed, that was going to be my last posting on the matter