ElectroMan
Well-known member
I admit that I'm skeptical about some cable claims, but I have noticed differences with speaker cables. However, I also think there's an element of snake oil about some of the really expensive cables.
There is a lot of BS in hifi, especially when people start talking about equipment racks or mains cable having a big effect.
There are however real measurable benefits of using a good cable over 50p/meter bell wire. All speaker cable including £5000/m cable will degrade the signal, however better quality cables will have lower resistance, inductance and capacitance and therefore less degradation.
The electrical properties of a cable will be determined by many factors including the conductor thickness, conductor material, cross sectional profile, conductor separation and even the plastic insulator etc. It is also important to remember that at higher frequencies the current will travel around the outside of the conductor (skin effect) while lower frequencies will have a more uniform distribution through the conductor. This would explain why the QED silver anniversary XT has a leaner sound - the "hollow" conductor profile means the resistance to higher frequencies is relatively less than for lower frequencies when compared to solid cables.
Because the resistance of a cable varies with frequency, the term impedance is generally used instead of resistance when talking about performace of a conductor in relation to an AC signal. Impedance is effectively the resistance of the cable at a certain frequency and will be determined by the capacitance, inductance and DC resistance of the cable. It is possible to measure the impedance of a cable over the audio frequency range and therefore make a scientific comparison.
Of course this is not the whole story, the capacitance and inductance of the cable could also have an effect on the output stage of the amplifier and may cause unwanted oscillations.
In summary it is probably worth getting a reasonable cable over the real cheap and nasty stuff, but I certainly don't think spending big money will make any difference.
There are however real measurable benefits of using a good cable over 50p/meter bell wire. All speaker cable including £5000/m cable will degrade the signal, however better quality cables will have lower resistance, inductance and capacitance and therefore less degradation.
The electrical properties of a cable will be determined by many factors including the conductor thickness, conductor material, cross sectional profile, conductor separation and even the plastic insulator etc. It is also important to remember that at higher frequencies the current will travel around the outside of the conductor (skin effect) while lower frequencies will have a more uniform distribution through the conductor. This would explain why the QED silver anniversary XT has a leaner sound - the "hollow" conductor profile means the resistance to higher frequencies is relatively less than for lower frequencies when compared to solid cables.
Because the resistance of a cable varies with frequency, the term impedance is generally used instead of resistance when talking about performace of a conductor in relation to an AC signal. Impedance is effectively the resistance of the cable at a certain frequency and will be determined by the capacitance, inductance and DC resistance of the cable. It is possible to measure the impedance of a cable over the audio frequency range and therefore make a scientific comparison.
Of course this is not the whole story, the capacitance and inductance of the cable could also have an effect on the output stage of the amplifier and may cause unwanted oscillations.
In summary it is probably worth getting a reasonable cable over the real cheap and nasty stuff, but I certainly don't think spending big money will make any difference.
I concure electroman! There is big leap in sound quality switching from bell wire to somthing half decent like QED silver ect but from there on in i can discern little differnce or at least not a differnce thats worth paying 40 quid a meter extra for imo
I have a degree in audio production, I worked in a professional recording studio mixing and engineering and I now Master and Post produce a variety of music so I have for my sins some knowledge of audio. As far as cables go I would say the difference in sound I have heard is negligible. The only difference I have found with cables in the studio is that balanced cables (XLR or TRS sockets) have no noise as they put the signal out of phase and then back in effect cancelling any accumulated audio debris. I recently tried biwiring and biamping with various cables and concluded that it is nothing more than a con pure and simple. As for claims that a certain cable can increase perceived sound stage (stereo field) is quite frankly nonsense. When you a song is panned (left or right to varying degrees) mixed and summed all the instruments and their frequencies merge and are simply put squashed together in a two channel audio recording which we send to the speakers via a signal once this wholly destructive act as taken place it is extremely hard to effect any particular part as they have been merged for ever. The only way you could effect perceived stereo is either by adding some effect at certain frequences or by increasing the higher frequencies which unlike low bass are directional but still it will depend more on your room acoustics, standign waves etc. With regards to high end equipment to I must say that if a studio has recorded a kick drum with a £100 microphone such as the d112 or beta 52 which are pretty standard and then mixed through some genelecs or dynaudio monitors then bounced down to 16 bit I would not see the logic is spending £40,000 on reproducing that sound. How can it be possible to make a recording done by a £100-£2000 microphone any better. So there is my 5 pence worth Expensive speaker cables are nonsense, humans have 5 second audio memory so please A B test before you waste your money. I have developed golden ears over the years and when i put an vocal through an 1176 compressor you can hear a difference even compared to the same settigns on a diff comp but after biwiring and using different cables I heard no difference at all. Its snake oil! And your probably spending 5 times more to hear a guitar than the guy who plugged the guitar into his amp.
idc
Well-known member
Excellent post widerbeast. Some of the BS with the 'big effect' is that people were not expecting any effect at all and so were surprised that there was one and then the rest is manufacturers talking up their products. Of course with the expensive stuff the law of diminishing returns has well and truely kicked in.
shanemc:
I have a degree in audio production, I worked in a professional recording studio mixing and engineering and I now Master and Post produce a variety of music so I have for my sins some knowledge of audio. As far as cables go I would say the difference in sound I have heard is negligible. The only difference I have found with cables in the studio is that balanced cables (XLR or TRS sockets) have no noise as they put the signal out of phase and then back in effect cancelling any accumulated audio debris. I recently tried biwiring and biamping with various cables and concluded that it is nothing more than a con pure and simple. As for claims that a certain cable can increase perceived sound stage (stereo field) is quite frankly nonsense. When you a song is panned (left or right to varying degrees) mixed and summed all the instruments and their frequencies merge and are simply put squashed together in a two channel audio recording which we send to the speakers via a signal once this wholly destructive act as taken place it is extremely hard to effect any particular part as they have been merged for ever. The only way you could effect perceived stereo is either by adding some effect at certain frequences or by increasing the higher frequencies which unlike low bass are directional but still it will depend more on your room acoustics, standign waves etc. With regards to high end equipment to I must say that if a studio has recorded a kick drum with a £100 microphone such as the d112 or beta 52 which are pretty standard and then mixed through some genelecs or dynaudio monitors then bounced down to 16 bit I would not see the logic is spending £40,000 on reproducing that sound. How can it be possible to make a recording done by a £100-£2000 microphone any better. So there is my 5 pence worth Expensive speaker cables are nonsense, humans have 5 second audio memory so please A B test before you waste your money. I have developed golden ears over the years and when i put an vocal through an 1176 compressor you can hear a difference even compared to the same settigns on a diff comp but after biwiring and using different cables I heard no difference at all. Its snake oil! And your probably spending 5 times more to hear a guitar than the guy who plugged the guitar into his amp.
So youd be saying that shielded speaker cables make no differnce and that unsheilded ones dont pick up noise? and if humans have a five second memory how are you so sure that can hear a differnce in vocals when run through 1176 compressor?
I have a degree in audio production, I worked in a professional recording studio mixing and engineering and I now Master and Post produce a variety of music so I have for my sins some knowledge of audio. As far as cables go I would say the difference in sound I have heard is negligible. The only difference I have found with cables in the studio is that balanced cables (XLR or TRS sockets) have no noise as they put the signal out of phase and then back in effect cancelling any accumulated audio debris. I recently tried biwiring and biamping with various cables and concluded that it is nothing more than a con pure and simple. As for claims that a certain cable can increase perceived sound stage (stereo field) is quite frankly nonsense. When you a song is panned (left or right to varying degrees) mixed and summed all the instruments and their frequencies merge and are simply put squashed together in a two channel audio recording which we send to the speakers via a signal once this wholly destructive act as taken place it is extremely hard to effect any particular part as they have been merged for ever. The only way you could effect perceived stereo is either by adding some effect at certain frequences or by increasing the higher frequencies which unlike low bass are directional but still it will depend more on your room acoustics, standign waves etc. With regards to high end equipment to I must say that if a studio has recorded a kick drum with a £100 microphone such as the d112 or beta 52 which are pretty standard and then mixed through some genelecs or dynaudio monitors then bounced down to 16 bit I would not see the logic is spending £40,000 on reproducing that sound. How can it be possible to make a recording done by a £100-£2000 microphone any better. So there is my 5 pence worth Expensive speaker cables are nonsense, humans have 5 second audio memory so please A B test before you waste your money. I have developed golden ears over the years and when i put an vocal through an 1176 compressor you can hear a difference even compared to the same settigns on a diff comp but after biwiring and using different cables I heard no difference at all. Its snake oil! And your probably spending 5 times more to hear a guitar than the guy who plugged the guitar into his amp.
So youd be saying that shielded speaker cables make no differnce and that unsheilded ones dont pick up noise? and if humans have a five second memory how are you so sure that can hear a differnce in vocals when run through 1176 compressor?
There is another factor, too, which may account for the fact a new cable sounds better. Oxidation can really degrade a signal - wasn't it What HiFi that used to recommend re-doing cable connections on a regular basis?
Un-shielded cable is called wire and I never once mentioned wire, you can tell the difference with an 1176 compressor because of how it changes the sound sonically in such a "real" way, pretty much in the same way that if I was to watch my mother walk out and come back in the room with an afro wig and moustache as compared to her telling me she was now a man and I had to believe her and LOOK hard (search) or artificially create the difference in my head.
There are absolutely loads of SCIENTIFIC papers exploring these matters in great detail and with nothing to do with profits or bias.
One concluded that out of a wide group test the cheapest had a slight dip 1db around 50,000 khz which your dog may notice but you certainly would not due to you being human.
Also watch on the web the guy who heads the body that certifies cables for hdmi license/logo etc he said theres no difference between £10 and £100 HDMI none at all except build quality. When you take away the myths your left with an old man behind a curtain claming to be a wizard. Peoples income streams depend upon these myths being perpetuated. The fact is your burning money reproducing 16 bit 44 khz material that has been compressed massively before you get it onto a cd.
24 bit 96 khz as standard please
One concluded that out of a wide group test the cheapest had a slight dip 1db around 50,000 khz which your dog may notice but you certainly would not due to you being human.
Also watch on the web the guy who heads the body that certifies cables for hdmi license/logo etc he said theres no difference between £10 and £100 HDMI none at all except build quality. When you take away the myths your left with an old man behind a curtain claming to be a wizard. Peoples income streams depend upon these myths being perpetuated. The fact is your burning money reproducing 16 bit 44 khz material that has been compressed massively before you get it onto a cd.
24 bit 96 khz as standard please
idc
Well-known member
shanemc:
As for claims that a certain cable can increase perceived sound stage (stereo field) is quite frankly nonsense.
Is that not just an example of how people do hear a difference, but like trying to describe a flavour, struggle to describe the difference? Later you talk about how 'perceived stereo is either by adding some effect at certain frequencies or by increasing the higher frequencies', could the speaker cable be responsible for that?
As for claims that a certain cable can increase perceived sound stage (stereo field) is quite frankly nonsense.
Is that not just an example of how people do hear a difference, but like trying to describe a flavour, struggle to describe the difference? Later you talk about how 'perceived stereo is either by adding some effect at certain frequencies or by increasing the higher frequencies', could the speaker cable be responsible for that?
You still havnt really answerd the shielded cable issue other than a quick and unconvinceing case of symantics? So is sheilded cable a waste of money?
idc
Well-known member
shanemc:
Also watch on the web the guy who heads the body that certifies cables for hdmi license/logo etc he said theres no difference between £10 and £100 HDMI none at all except build quality.
From the start of this thread build quality has been cited as the reason why different cables sound different and surely build quality explains the difference between a £10 and £100 cable? So they are different then!
Also watch on the web the guy who heads the body that certifies cables for hdmi license/logo etc he said theres no difference between £10 and £100 HDMI none at all except build quality.
From the start of this thread build quality has been cited as the reason why different cables sound different and surely build quality explains the difference between a £10 and £100 cable? So they are different then!
It would be negligible re. cable actually effecting or attenuating treble freqences. And gareth its semantics and i wasn't using them either it was an analogy. Shielded cable is only a factor if you have interference however it is standard practise but this is really a non issue as I can purchase shielded cable for a fraction of top-end cables. I wonder how effective rubber/ plastic thin alloy etc is against shielding the core of the cable from elements that could affect the audio.
Hmm I wonder if radon radiation would affect it. This time next week there will be a lead lined lined cable.
Hmm I wonder if radon radiation would affect it. This time next week there will be a lead lined lined cable.
JohnDuncan:Andrew Everard:Well said, the_kfc.
Indeed. Will now investigate functionality within the forums to see if all cable threads can have this set as an autoreply.
Ah yes, but that assumes that all cable threads perform the same. Which of course they don't.
Indeed. Will now investigate functionality within the forums to see if all cable threads can have this set as an autoreply.
Ah yes, but that assumes that all cable threads perform the same. Which of course they don't.
The £10 to £100 was in reference to hdmi cable. Build quality is not the same as efficiency. And plus cables dont make sound instruments do, cable merely conducts electricity. The source, amplification and speakers change the sound and impart certain characteristics onto the recorded audio. Cables, power cables etc. dont. In the studio the cables are chose primarily for lastability and some are up to 40 years old and still being used to make great tunes.
Andrew Everard:
JohnDuncan:Andrew Everard:Well said, the_kfc.
Indeed. Will now investigate functionality within the forums to see if all cable threads can have this set as an autoreply.
Ah yes, but that assumes that all cable threads perform the same. Which of course they don't.
Hmm...
JohnDuncan:Andrew Everard:Well said, the_kfc.
Indeed. Will now investigate functionality within the forums to see if all cable threads can have this set as an autoreply.
Ah yes, but that assumes that all cable threads perform the same. Which of course they don't.
Hmm...
To a measuring device or human ear with all its limitations eg. 20 hz to 20 khz.
You know the AUDIBLE difference between any decent cable (working) is negligible. If the cable was balanced it would make a real difference to avoid noise picked up along the way. Audio religion has taken over Audio science.
You know the AUDIBLE difference between any decent cable (working) is negligible. If the cable was balanced it would make a real difference to avoid noise picked up along the way. Audio religion has taken over Audio science.
I give up! I must be deaf i could have sworn when i first replaced my bell wire with qed silver cable which incidently only cost about about £20 i could hear a real difference it was like my mother had left the room wearing a habit and came back wearing a thong and smoking a fatone.. Although i do agree its foolish imo to spend £1000's
It's foolish to spend more than £10 per metre. Research the hundreds of blind tests done around the world by industry professionals and scientists. The last one i read gave back a figure of 49% in a 50 50 test. They could not spot the high end cables compared to low cost more than 1 out of 2 times.
bell wire no way as speaker cable
i have qed kudos cable the best i have tried
also did a blind test with my mates £15 a metre cable
and neither of us could tell a difference
so his 20metre run cost £300 nice to look at
and my 12metre run cost £30 as always try before you buy use your ears
and you will save yourself some readys
i have qed kudos cable the best i have tried
also did a blind test with my mates £15 a metre cable
and neither of us could tell a difference
so his 20metre run cost £300 nice to look at
and my 12metre run cost £30 as always try before you buy use your ears
and you will save yourself some readys
The world is full of two people, the cheaters and the cheated.
Save your cash, good post dvd audio.
Save your cash, good post dvd audio.
8009514
Well-known member
Have to say that shanemc has turned this into one the most interesting threads on speaker cables that there's been for a long time.
Also have to say that my prospective son-in-law is a sound engineer and agrees with all that shanemc has said.
Also have to say that my prospective son-in-law is a sound engineer and agrees with all that shanemc has said.
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