Where is the proof that different speaker cables sound different?

[JoelSim]

wilderbeast:
There is a lot of BS in hifi, especially when people start talking about equipment racks or mains cable having a big effect.

There are however real measurable benefits of using a good cable over 50p/meter bell wire. All speaker cable including £5000/m cable will degrade the signal, however better quality cables will have lower resistance, inductance and capacitance and therefore less degradation.

The electrical properties of a cable will be determined by many factors including the conductor thickness, conductor material, cross sectional profile, conductor separation and even the plastic insulator etc. It is also important to remember that at higher frequencies the current will travel around the outside of the conductor (skin effect) while lower frequencies will have a more uniform distribution through the conductor. This would explain why the QED silver anniversary XT has a leaner sound - the "hollow" conductor profile means the resistance to higher frequencies is relatively less than for lower frequencies when compared to solid cables.ÿ

Because the resistance of a cable varies with frequency, the term impedance is generally used instead of resistance when talking about performace of a conductor in relation to an AC signal. Impedance is effectively the resistance of the cable at a certain frequency and will be determined by the capacitance, inductance and DC resistance of the cable. It is possible to measure the impedance of a cable over the audio frequency range and therefore make a scientific comparison.

ÿOf course this is not the whole story, the capacitance and inductance of the cable could also have an effect on the output stage of the amplifier and may cause unwanted oscillations.

In summary it is probably worth getting a reasonable cable over the real cheap and nasty stuff, but I certainly don't think spending big money will make any difference.

ÿ

Mr Beast, I sat for 3 hours open-mouthed when I got my equipment stand, mainly for aesthetic reasons, and popped on Soul Mining by The The and track 4, That Uncertain Smile was an absolute revelation. I was as amazed as I possibly could have been, having always been a bit sceptical myself.

And on speaker cables, the difference between QED SA XT and some 6mm copper with my ProAcs was pronounced in the level of detail and tightness of bass was concerned.

Then last week I swapped a vdh D102 III for a Chord Chameleon between CDP and amp and again the sound was significantly different, with loads more bass. It seems to have settled down a little now but at the time it was noticeably different and I'm not talking 2% either as it put a completely different slant on what I was listening to.

ÿ

 

[up the music]

Nobody has mentioned cable directionality yet. I seem to remember reading that the molecular structure of copper wire or cable is the same in both directions. Basically, that it has no way of 'knowing' which end was extruded first, and can't therefore be directional. Do we have anybody who can shed light on the molecular structure of wire?

Also, nobody has mentioned burn in periods for cables, speaker and others. How does that work? I can believe and even noticed it for components, especially speakers, but burning in cables? What changes?

 

[Andrew Everard]

up the music:Nobody has mentioned cable directionality yet. I seem to remember reading that the molecular structure of copper wire or cable is the same in both directions. Basically, that it has no way of 'knowing' which end was extruded first, and can't therefore be directional. Do we have anybody who can shed light on the molecular structure of wire?

Also, nobody has mentioned burn in periods for cables, speaker and others. How does that work? I can believe and even noticed it for components, especially speakers, but burning in cables? What changes?

To The Editor, The Times

SIR - I write to inform you that today I believe I spotted the first self-perpetuating cable thread of the Spring.

Yours, etc

 

[JoelSim]

up the music:Nobody has mentioned cable directionality yet. I seem to remember reading that the molecular structure of copper wire or cable is the same in both directions. Basically, that it has no way of 'knowing' which end was extruded first, and can't therefore be directional. Do we have anybody who can shed light on the molecular structure of wire?Also, nobody has mentioned burn in periods for cables, speaker and others. How does that work? I can believe and even noticed it for components, especially speakers, but burning in cables? What changes?

My cat prefers to be stroked from his head to his tail rather than the other way round, does that help?

 

[Andrew Everard]

That's because cats are drawn out head first using PC-OCC - PussyCat Ohno Continuous Casting - so all the fur naturally flows head to tail.

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:That's because cats are drawn out head first using PC-OCC - PussyCat Ohno Continuous Casting - so all the fur naturally flows head to tail.

I suspect if you ask a male fox about directionality then he may shed some light on proceedings too

ÿ

 

[Andrew Everard]

Yes, dogs are the same, but only if they are six nines pure.

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent and helpful post , thank youÿ

 

[Anonymous]

shanemc:It's foolish to spend more than £10 per metre. Research the hundreds of blind tests done around the world by industry professionals and scientists. The last one i read gave back a figure of 49% in a 50 50 test. They could not spot the high end cables compared to low cost more than 1 out of 2 times.

ÿ

In all the Scientific type test's i've read this was pretty much the outcome of them all ,,,ÿ

Read a test a while back performed by about 20 guys on another forum , they passed around 3 "kettle Leads" 1 actual cheapo kettle lead , 1 that cost around 25 and another costing about 400 or 500 pounds.

The leads where heavily masked so no-one could make out which was which .

Tests performed on really great systems ÿat peoples own homes over a lengthy period of time.

The results showed a slight preference for the cheapo kettle lead but was mostly even preference across all 3 leads.

ÿThe participants could not believe the results .

ÿ

 

[up the music]

Andrew Everard:That's because cats are drawn out head first using PC-OCC - PussyCat Ohno Continuous Casting - so all the fur naturally flows head to tail.

This isn't actually true.
To cover the body in fur a cat (and any other fur covered mammal) needs several crowns. Eg between the legs.

The cat with one crown is a mythical beast, possibly derived from the story of the cat that went to London to visit the Queen and sat under under her chair. The one crown referring to the head of state and not it's fur.

 

[JoelSim]

up the music:Andrew Everard:That's because cats are drawn out head first using PC-OCC - PussyCat Ohno Continuous Casting - so all the fur naturally flows head to tail.
This isn't actually true.To cover the body in fur a cat (and any other fur covered mammal) needs several crowns. Eg between the legs.The cat with one crown is a mythical beast, possibly derived from the story of the cat that went to London to visit the Queen and sat under under her chair. The one crown referring to the head of state and not it's fur.

Have you been smoking?

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:wilderbeast:
There is a lot of BS in hifi, especially when people start talking about equipment racks or mains cable having a big effect.

There are however real measurable benefits of using a good cable over 50p/meter bell wire. All speaker cable including £5000/m cable will degrade the signal, however better quality cables will have lower resistance, inductance and capacitance and therefore less degradation.

The electrical properties of a cable will be determined by many factors including the conductor thickness, conductor material, cross sectional profile, conductor separation and even the plastic insulator etc. It is also important to remember that at higher frequencies the current will travel around the outside of the conductor (skin effect) while lower frequencies will have a more uniform distribution through the conductor. This would explain why the QED silver anniversary XT has a leaner sound - the "hollow" conductor profile means the resistance to higher frequencies is relatively less than for lower frequencies when compared to solid cables.

Because the resistance of a cable varies with frequency, the term impedance is generally used instead of resistance when talking about performace of a conductor in relation to an AC signal. Impedance is effectively the resistance of the cable at a certain frequency and will be determined by the capacitance, inductance and DC resistance of the cable. It is possible to measure the impedance of a cable over the audio frequency range and therefore make a scientific comparison.

Of course this is not the whole story, the capacitance and inductance of the cable could also have an effect on the output stage of the amplifier and may cause unwanted oscillations.

In summary it is probably worth getting a reasonable cable over the real cheap and nasty stuff, but I certainly don't think spending big money will make any difference.

Mr Beast, I sat for 3 hours open-mouthed when I got my equipment stand, mainly for aesthetic reasons, and popped on Soul Mining by The The and track 4, That Uncertain Smile was an absolute revelation. I was as amazed as I possibly could have been, having always been a bit sceptical myself.

And on speaker cables, the difference between QED SA XT and some 6mm copper with my ProAcs was pronounced in the level of detail and tightness of bass was concerned.

Then last week I swapped a vdh D102 III for a Chord Chameleon between CDP and amp and again the sound was significantly different, with loads more bass. It seems to have settled down a little now but at the time it was noticeably different and I'm not talking 2% either as it put a completely different slant on what I was listening to.

I think there is probably a heathy dose of the placebo effect in regards to your equipment rack.

.........Put a blindfold on, get your missus to lift you CD or Amp etc a few inches above your rack, then ask her to carefully lower it back onto your rack at some point during a track without you knowing. If you can tell the point at which this happens, never mind the difference being a "revelation" then I'd be absolutely amazed.

As somebody else mentioned you only have a few seconds memory of audio quality, so by the time you have switched cables etc. it is very difficult to remember exactly what the first cable sounded like and if you have just spend £££ upgrading it is possibly easier to convince yourself you can hear an improvement.

Don't get me wrong there is a definite scientific basis for using better speaker cables and to some extent interconnects. your £5/m QED SA XT will definitely sound better than 50p/m bell wire and the science supports this. Possibly if you have a £3-4K+ system you might want to spend a bit more say £10-15/M, but it certainly won't be worth spending much more than this.
When you look into mains cables for instance, there is a scientific argument that if anything the cheaper cables will actually give a better sound (they give more decoupling from the noisy ring main than their low impedance expensive exotica), yet some people still believe they can hear a big improvement by forking out large sums.

When I read reviews on mains cable / equipment racks offering amazing levels of clarity, insight etc. it does undermine my confidence in what the same reviewers say about Amps, CD players etc.

 

[Anonymous]

Well there you go.

Personally I rather judge for myself, and buy what I prefer sound
wise. After all it is music on my system that I am listening to.

 

[JoelSim]

wilderbeast:JoelSim:wilderbeast:
There is a lot of BS in hifi, especially when people start talking about equipment racks or mains cable having a big effect.

There are however real measurable benefits of using a good cable over 50p/meter bell wire. All speaker cable including £5000/m cable will degrade the signal, however better quality cables will have lower resistance, inductance and capacitance and therefore less degradation.

The electrical properties of a cable will be determined by many factors including the conductor thickness, conductor material, cross sectional profile, conductor separation and even the plastic insulator etc. It is also important to remember that at higher frequencies the current will travel around the outside of the conductor (skin effect) while lower frequencies will have a more uniform distribution through the conductor. This would explain why the QED silver anniversary XT has a leaner sound - the "hollow" conductor profile means the resistance to higher frequencies is relatively less than for lower frequencies when compared to solid cables.ÿ

Because the resistance of a cable varies with frequency, the term impedance is generally used instead of resistance when talking about performace of a conductor in relation to an AC signal. Impedance is effectively the resistance of the cable at a certain frequency and will be determined by the capacitance, inductance and DC resistance of the cable. It is possible to measure the impedance of a cable over the audio frequency range and therefore make a scientific comparison.

ÿOf course this is not the whole story, the capacitance and inductance of the cable could also have an effect on the output stage of the amplifier and may cause unwanted oscillations.

In summary it is probably worth getting a reasonable cable over the real cheap and nasty stuff, but I certainly don't think spending big money will make any difference.

ÿ

Mr Beast, I sat for 3 hours open-mouthed when I got my equipment stand, mainly for aesthetic reasons, and popped on Soul Mining by The The and track 4, That Uncertain Smile was an absolute revelation. I was as amazed as I possibly could have been, having always been a bit sceptical myself.

And on speaker cables, the difference between QED SA XT and some 6mm copper with my ProAcs was pronounced in the level of detail and tightness of bass was concerned.

Then last week I swapped a vdh D102 III for a Chord Chameleon between CDP and amp and again the sound was significantly different, with loads more bass. It seems to have settled down a little now but at the time it was noticeably different and I'm not talking 2% either as it put a completely different slant on what I was listening to.

ÿ

I think there is probably a heathy dose of the placebo effect in regards to your equipment rack.

I wouldn't have sat there incredulously for 3 hours if it hadn't been very obvious.ÿ

 

[Craig M.]

maybe when i got my new rack the placebo effect let me hear a voice on a cd i had never heard before.
but it wasn't placebo, i only bought mine as it had enough shelves, would hold my plasma as well and i liked the look of it. i expected to hear zero difference when really there was a big one.

 

[idc]

wilderbeast:When I read reviews on mains cable / equipment racks offering amazing levels of clarity, insight etc. it does undermine my confidence in what the same reviewers say about Amps, CD players etc.

I am in the 'it does make a difference camp' with regards to cables and stands. I too bought a stand to look nice and just to put my kit and was taken aback by the improvement in sound. That was because I was not expecting it to make any difference. When reviewers state that stands offer 'amazing levels of clarity' that is standard reviewer speak. If you dedicate yourself to one topic, be it hifi, theatre, food or cars, the differences will become more obvious that for an occasional user. Hence the use of such language. I read such reviews as more of a case of 'I heard a difference' than 'an amazing difference' and buy the cheaper one due to diminishing marginal utility; I do not have enough money!

 

[JoelSim]

Craig M.:maybe when i got my new rack the placebo effect let me hear a voice on a cd i had never heard before.
but it wasn't placebo, i only bought mine as it had enough shelves, would hold my plasma as well and i liked the look of it.ÿ i expected to hear zero difference when really there was a big one.

same here. I was astounded.

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:maybe when i got my new rack the placebo effect let me hear a voice on a cd i had never heard before.
but it wasn't placebo, i only bought mine as it had enough shelves, would hold my plasma as well and i liked the look of it.ÿ i expected to hear zero difference when really there was a big one.

ÿ

Cd player's can sound better when isolated from vibrations

Or maybe your ears were more focused in expectation.

ÿOr even a combination of both

ÿ

ÿ

 

[idc]

shanemc:The £10 to £100 was in reference to hdmi cable. Build quality is not the same as efficiency. And plus cables dont make sound instruments do, cable merely conducts electricity. The source, amplification and speakers change the sound and impart certain characteristics onto the recorded audio. Cables, power cables etc. dont. In the studio the cables are chose primarily for lastability and some are up to 40 years old and still being used to make great tunes.

Shanemc, you quoted to support your argument that there is no difference between a £10 and a £100 hdmi cable, except the build quality. That surely applies to all cables, not just hdmi. OK, so build quality is not the same as efficiency, but by saying that there is a difference in build quality means a difference in the components used and the way the cable is constructed. So cables are different and so it is not unreasonable to reason they have different effects on sound.

You say cables do not make sound and merely conduct electicity. So why then do the components within the amp etc, which just conduct electicity have an effect on sound? Why not both? My view is that the amp etc have a far geater impact on sound than the cables, but cables do have an effect. Their different build qualities vary that effect.

Maybe the cable debate is like the tyres on a car. Most of the time you do not notice them and the differences they can have on a car's stopping and cornering ability. But every so often, especially in extreme conditions, such as heavy rain or an emergency stop, you realise that there is a difference.

 

[JoelSim]

idc:
shanemc:The £10 to £100 was in reference to hdmi cable. Build quality is not the same as efficiency. And plus cables dont make sound instruments do, cable merely conducts electricity. The source, amplification and speakers change the sound and impart certain characteristics onto the recorded audio. Cables, power cables etc. dont. In the studio the cables are chose primarily for lastability and some are up toÿ40 years old and still being used to make great tunes.

Shanemc, you quoted to support your argumentÿthat there is no difference between a £10 and a £100 hdmi cable, except the build quality. That surely applies to all cables, not just hdmi. OK, so build quality is not the same as efficiency, but by saying that there is a difference in build quality means a difference in the components used and the way the cable is constructed. So cables are different and so it is not unreasonable to reason they have different effects on sound.

You say cables do not make sound and merely conduct electicity. So why then do the components within the amp etc, which just conduct electicity have an effect on sound? Why not both? My view is that the amp etc have a far geater impact on sound than the cables, but cables do have an effect. Their different build qualities vary that effect.

Maybe the cable debateÿis like the tyres on a car. Most of the time you do not notice them and the differences they can have on a car's stopping and cornering ability. But every so often, especially in extreme conditions, such as heavy rain or an emergency stop, you realise that there is a difference.

Or when you have people over for dinner and you give them incredible mozzarella and they wax lyrical with no promptingÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Now your talking!

 

[Anonymous]

The basics with no marketing attached.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

Perhaps interesting for anyone whoÿhasn'tÿread it before

 

[JoelSim]

drumlins4ever:
The basics with no marketing attached.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire

Perhaps interesting for anyone whoÿhasn'tÿread it before

You're right Drumlins, silly us. If only we'd consulted Wikipedia first we'd have saved pots of cash, which we could have spent on a computer. A cheap one as they are all the same aren't they?

I've also heard that all ketchups taste the same, and a 2.5 litre car performs in the same manner as every other 2.5 litre car. Surely they have to as the engine capacity is the same?

ÿ

ÿ

 

[idc]

A quote from the wikipedia entry;

Even with poor-quality wire, an audible degradation of sound may not exist. Many supposedly audible differences in speaker wire can be attributed to listener bias or the placebo effect. Listener bias is enhanced in no small part by the popular manufacturers' practice of making claims about their products either with no valid engineering or scientific basis, or of no real-world significance. Many manufacturers catering to audiophiles (as well as those supplying less expensive retail markets) also make unmeasurable, if poetic, claims about their wire sounding open, dynamic, or smooth. To justify these claims, many cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance of the cable, or resonance, which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these has any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies.

The first sentence alone rings alarm bells. The entry is written as science, but with a distinct lack of evidence and a lot of opinion. The last sentence also rings alarm bells. So because it cannot be measured it cannot be the case, really? A false conclusion.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you read the footnote links on the wiki page , these one's , Wiki don't just pull their facts and figures out of thin air ,ÿ

http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

http://procosound.com/downloads/whitepapers/Understanding%20Speaker%20Cables.pdf