When are the AVI ADM40s coming and how much will they be ?

[Phileas]

And don't forget the mono/stereo sub pre-outs with selectable 100Hz filter.

 

[steve_1979]

Do AVI sell just the slave speakers without the DAC and pre amp?

I don't think that they do with the ADM9's but I could be wrong.

I don't think they do with the ADM9's but they might with the 40s since those are custom order.

I really can't see the point. (I find Oldric's remark a little silly.)

I can't see the point either. If someone wants to use them as regular active speakers with their own DAC and pre-amp (or an AV receiver) they can do. They just set the volume to a convenient level and use the analogue inputs which bypass the DAC. Simples.

Though why anyone would want to use an external DAC and pre-amp with them is a bit silly (unless you want to use them with an AV receiver for watching movies which makes sense). The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

 

[Dan Turner]

I totally agree with Chebby. Personally the fully integrated ADM40s make sense, and that's what I've ordered, but when we move and if I'm lucky enough to have the space and budget, I'm dreaming of having an audiolab AP8200, 7 ADM 9T (slaves) and 2 subs!

Clearly there's a market for 'traditional' active speakers and no reason why AVI should not be a legitimate choice, or why they should miss out on that market as far as I can see (not that they've shown any interest themselves, this is all pure speculation).

 

[Clare Newsome]

The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

It's precisely this sort of sweeping statement that winds people up....

You can't possibly know that, but you're stating it as certainty!

 

[steve_1979]

The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

It's precisely this sort of sweeping statement that winds people up....

You can't possibly know that, but you're stating it as certainty!

All properly designed pre-amps and DAC's have very very low levels of distortion. Compared to the relatively huge amout of distortion that you get from the power amp and speaker combination the tiny amount of distortion that pre-amp and DAC has is insignificantly small.

You will not be able to hear any difference if you used a different properly designed pre-amp and DAC because they would also have very low levels of distortion like the AVI ones do.

 

[Anonymous]

The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

It's precisely this sort of sweeping statement that winds people up....

You can't possibly know that, but you're stating it as certainty!

Nice one Clare, spot on!

I for one, do not want a DAC nor preamp since my Wadia already provides that. However I would find an analogue input very useful since it would allow me to plug in a turntable (via another preamp) and play some vinyl occasionally. And I would want balanced inputs to the speakers ala ATC.

 

[Clare Newsome]

You will not be able to hear any difference if you used a different properly designed pre-amp and DAC because they would also have very low levels of distortion like the AVI ones do.

So all (properly designed) pre-amps and DACs sound the same?

 

[daveh75]

I can't see the point either. If someone wants to use them as regular active speakers with their own DAC and pre-amp (or an AV receiver) they can do. They just set the volume to a convenient level and use the analogue inputs which bypass the DAC. Simples.

Though why anyone would want to use an external DAC and pre-amp with them is a bit silly (unless you want to use them with an AV receiver for watching movies which makes sense). The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

I can, it's called choice.

For example not everyone has an aversion to boxes, or is happy just to use an ATV. Some people have mutiple sources or sources that may not have optical or analogue outputs.

Which may mean using switches/converters/DACs which turns a neat, self contained solution (and isn't that there point/appeal, as well as SQ) into a less attractive one.

Running the pre-outs of an A/V receiver into the master and then having a link between master and slave is unnecessary too, when you could run an single I/C directly to each speaker, if you had a pair of slaves...

 

[BenLaw]

You will not be able to hear any difference if you used a different properly designed pre-amp and DAC because they would also have very low levels of distortion like the AVI ones do.

So all (properly designed) pre-amps and DACs sound the same?

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to a thread on AVI forums where Ashley has stated components that measure the same can / do sound different. Certainly users of ATC actives report significant differences in DACs and pres, from relatively cheap up to very high end.

 

[chebby]

The exclusion of the DAC and preamp might save less than £100 in the overal cost of over £3500?

My apologies. I had no idea they were £3500. (I thought they were a bit less than that.)

 

[gregvet]

Though why anyone would want to use an external DAC and pre-amp with them is a bit silly (unless you want to use them with an AV receiver for watching movies which makes sense). The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

This comment rather suggests that you have compared every possible external dac and pre amp with the ones built in. Is this the case?

I am not aware it has been measured that the output from the dac or pre amp in the avi's is 'unbeatable', and in my experience almost anything can be improved on. Whether that improvement is worthwhile, or more importantly worth the money it would cost, is a different matter entirely.

 

[Overdose]

The exclusion of the DAC and preamp might save less than £100 in the overal cost of over £3500?

My apologies. I had no idea they were £3500. (I thought they were a bit less than that.)

No apology required.

Depending on finish, a fair bit more, I think. I can understand the need for 'slave' speakers, but the cost of the AVIs as slaves would not be much less than as the whole unit. Of course, paying nearly the full price for a neutered pair, might be acceptable to some and if you consider that the speakers alone are excellent, then I guess it matters not.

 

[BenLaw]

The exclusion of the DAC and preamp might save less than £100 in the overal cost of over £3500?

My apologies. I had no idea they were £3500. (I thought they were a bit less than that.)

No apology required.

Depending on finish, a fair bit more, I think. I can understand the need for 'slave' speakers, but the cost of the AVIs as slaves would not be much less than as the whole unit. Of course, paying nearly the full price for a neutered pair, might be acceptable to some and if you consider that the speakers alone are excellent, then I guess it matters not.

I would have thought that's the definitive statement on that mini-debate. And unless and until someone reports they've tried to order 2 slave speakers and been refused I don't see how any more can be said about it.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Though why anyone would want to use an external DAC and pre-amp with them is a bit silly (unless you want to use them with an AV receiver for watching movies which makes sense). The DAC and pre-amp that are built into the ADM's are exellent quality and there would be no improvment in sound quality by using different ones.

well, I'm using 2 DACs at home ATM. one in my current CDP and another is Creative X-Fi HD external USB soundcard. according to what you say I shouldn't be hearing any differences between them. but I do. just for instance Digit sounds way more spacious and has way better controlled sibilances. those are most dominant traces. and it's not like the Creative is scrap from Pathos factory, in terms of measured performance. if anything it measures better. THD is very low 0.004% for Creative. for Digit it would be close to 0.05% (-100dB). Pathos is also better than my previous CDP it replaced. it was Teac PDH600, which also boasts great measured performance.

so, that's the main reason why I chose two slaves over AVI package if I were ever considering purchasing AVI. I'd rather chose partnering equipment myself. I really don't think that AVIs DAC is as good as Pathos. simply because I know what design philosophy Pathos has. and I don't think AVI shares it.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Option 2 - Ordering 2 slave speakers sounds like a bad choice. What makes the ADM series special are the remote controlled preamp and DAC. Take that away and you just have a pair of active speakers. If you later want to sell, I suspect it would be much harder to seduce buyers to take 2 slaves off your hand rather than a complete ADM40.

TBH I'd rather have two slaves. I'd like to choose preamp and DAC myself. I don't trust AVI... >)

Why?

Are you sure you want to open that can of worms? The answers to questions like that are often the type that lead to threads being locked...

I hadn't really thought about that, I'm just curious as to why Oldric doesn't trust AVI, he posts quite a lot in AVI threads.

see my reply #9 on page 11 for Steves post.

 

[Ajani]

The exclusion of the DAC and preamp might save less than £100 in the overal cost of over £3500?

My apologies. I had no idea they were £3500. (I thought they were a bit less than that.)

No apology required.

Depending on finish, a fair bit more, I think. I can understand the need for 'slave' speakers, but the cost of the AVIs as slaves would not be much less than as the whole unit. Of course, paying nearly the full price for a neutered pair, might be acceptable to some and if you consider that the speakers alone are excellent, then I guess it matters not.

At present prices are as follows: Walnut, Black Ash and Cherry, are £3000 and Rosewood and Black and White Lacquer (difficulty with supply ATM) are £3750.

I can see the argument made by persons interested in home cinema; cleary if you could care less about stereo and are looking for a 7.1 setup, then 7 slaves would be the ideal setup for you.

I can also see the argument that if you have a bag of different sources (hence the 40's don't have enough inputs) then you might prefer to use slaves with your existing DAC and PRE.

However, you always want to bear in mind that if you don't like the speakers or later want to upgrade or just change direction, that you may have trouble selling slave speakers. Unless there are a number of persons with the same special circumstances that caused you to buy slaves.

In my case, I already own a Benchmark DAC1 that I use as DAC and Pre. As great as the DAC1 is, I would not be willing to assume that it is better than the DAC/Pre in the 40s. I'd rather buy the unneutered 40's (I like that term). If I prefer the 40's DAC/Pre then I can sell the DAC1. If I prefer the DAC1 then I can I always run it through the analog input of the 40.

Anyway, I don't see why AVI wouldn't sell just slaves if customers requested them. The 40s are custom order so it would be no more difficult for them to put together a pair of neutered 40's than an intact pair.

 

[richardw42]

Ajani

Possibly AVI haven't considered it or had any requests from customers.

But I'm sure this thread will be brought to their attention , it'll be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

 

[Ajani]

Ajani

Possibly AVI haven't considered it or had any requests from customers.

But I'm sure this thread will be brought to their attention , it'll be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

Yep... I think customers need to request it. Maybe some of the persons with special needs in this thread will make the request and provide feedback of AVI's response.

 

[char_lotte]

Ajani

Possibly AVI haven't considered it or had any requests from customers.

But I'm sure this thread will be brought to their attention , it'll be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

I'm quite sure they are aware of this and all the other threads , and are basking in the limelight.

 

[steve_1979]

So all (properly designed) pre-amps and DACs sound the same?

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to a thread on AVI forums where Ashley has stated components that measure the same can / do sound different. Certainly users of ATC actives report significant differences in DACs and pres, from relatively cheap up to very high end.

This comment rather suggests that you have compared every possible external dac and pre amp with the ones built in. Is this the case?

I am not aware it has been measured that the output from the dac or pre amp in the avi's is 'unbeatable', and in my experience almost anything can be improved on. Whether that improvement is worthwhile, or more importantly worth the money it would cost, is a different matter entirely.

I'm not saying that all DAC's and pre-amps sound the same as this is obviously not the case especially in the home hifi industry where many manufacturers seem to like adding a bit of colouration to give their products a distinctive 'house sound'. This is all good and well if you want a brighter or warmer sound rather than being accurate. I have no problem with this if you want a coloured sound - whatever sounds best to you.

However, all well designed, properly implimented DAC's and pre-amps (such as the ones used in the ADM's) have such low levels of distortion and colouration which makes them so similar that as far as anyone can hear, they do sound identical. A good example of this is the cheap Logitech SB Touch which sounds identical to the very expensive Benchmark DAC1 even when compared using £10,000 worth of ATC speakers.

See posts 12 and 13 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/my-dream-system-oh-maybe-one-day?page=14

 

[Ajani]

A good example of this is the cheap Logitech SB Touch that sounds identical to the very expensive Benchmark DAC1 even when compared using £10,000 worth of ATC speakers.

See posts 12 and 13 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/my-dream-system-oh-maybe-one-day?page=14

I lot of persons would disagree that the Touch and DAC1 sound the same. Also I'm sure that they don't measure the same either. You need to realize that because one member didn't notice a difference doesn't mean everyone else would share that opinion.

All that said, I've yet to hear to truly dramatic differences between quality DACs - but I wouldn't go as far to claim that all quality DACs sound the same.

 

[John Duncan]

So all (properly designed) pre-amps and DACs sound the same?

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to a thread on AVI forums where Ashley has stated components that measure the same can / do sound different. Certainly users of ATC actives report significant differences in DACs and pres, from relatively cheap up to very high end.

This comment rather suggests that you have compared every possible external dac and pre amp with the ones built in. Is this the case?

I am not aware it has been measured that the output from the dac or pre amp in the avi's is 'unbeatable', and in my experience almost anything can be improved on. Whether that improvement is worthwhile, or more importantly worth the money it would cost, is a different matter entirely.

I'm not saying that all DAC's and pre-amps sound the same as this is obviously not the case especially in the home hifi industry where many manufacturers seem to like adding a bit of colouration to give their products a distinctive 'house sound'. This is all good and well if you want a brighter or warmer sound rather than being accurate. I have no problem with this if you want a coloured sound - whatever sounds best to you.

However, all well designed, properly implimented DAC's and pre-amps (such as the ones used in the ADM's) have such low levels of distortion and colouration which makes them so similar that as far as anyone can hear, they do sound identical. A good example of this is the cheap Logitech SB Touch which sounds identical to the very expensive Benchmark DAC1 even when compared using £10,000 worth of ATC speakers.

See posts 12 and 13 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/my-dream-system-oh-maybe-one-day?page=14

Just so's I'm clear, is this the DAC in the ADMs before or after they found the one that sounded better?

 

[steve_1979]

Just so's I'm clear, is this the DAC in the ADMs before or after they found the one that sounded better?

From what I've read on the AVI forum they did upgrade the DAC in their ADM's for a slightly better one a while ago but in terms of sound quality the difference between them is so miniscule they're virtually indistinguishable.

 

[WinterRacer]

I read the DAC upgrade AVI did recently was technically better but not audibly better. Which is what I'd expect when distortion is already so low.

Btw, for those wanting to use an external DAC or Pre-amp with the 9s or 40s, they both have an 'AV' setting that sets one of the analogue inputs to fixed gain. Just connect your preamp/DAC to this input and no messing around with gain needed.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I read the DAC upgrade AVI did recently was technically better but not audibly better.

So no point in doing it then?