When are the AVI ADM40s coming and how much will they be ?

[steve_1979]

they're virtually indistinguishable.

Just to clarify this point before anyone starts picking nits.

When I say that "they're virtually indistinguishable" I mean they're virtually indistinguishable when you measure them. If you actually listen to them they are totally indistinguishable as far as your ears will be able to tell because the distortion levels on them both are very low.

 

[WinterRacer]

I read the DAC upgrade AVI did recently was technically better but not audibly better.

So no point in doing it then?

Cheaper, easier, more reliable, newer parts, old parts no longer available? Who knows, but plenty of possible points.

 

[char_lotte]

Just so's I'm clear, is this the DAC in the ADMs before or after they found the one that sounded better?

From what I've read on the AVI forum they did upgrade the DAC in their ADM's for a slightly better one a while ago but in terms of sound quality the difference between them is so miniscule they're virtually indistinguishable.

 

[char_lotte]

Just so's I'm clear, is this the DAC in the ADMs before or after they found the one that sounded better?

From what I've read on the AVI forum they did upgrade the DAC in their ADM's for a slightly better one a while ago but in terms of sound quality the difference between them is so miniscule they're virtually indistinguishable.

Of these fabled distortion figures that are bandied about so often, at what point does it become audible? 0.0001%? 0.001%? 0.011%?

I know it depends on frequency, but generally speaking. Also could an example of an inadequately designed modern amp or dac be given please? God......I've been sucked in. Please accept my most interfrastic apologies for asking this question.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Cheaper, easier, more reliable, newer parts, old parts no longer available? Who knows, but plenty of possible points.

But which one is relevant in this case?

 

[Phileas]

Cheaper, easier, more reliable, newer parts, old parts no longer available? Who knows, but plenty of possible points.

But which one is relevant in this case?

Who cares? Some people worry about that sort of thing so it could just be sensible marketing if it doesn't cost anything.

 

[Frank Harvey]

My point is that some manufacturers, Naim for example, get slagged off on various sections of this forum and AVI's (by AVI advocates) for going to extreme lengths in order to make improvements to their equipment, even if the benefits are minuscule. But AVI do it and it's ok, all for the best, and to be expected. I get that some people will have a dislike for some manufacturers for whatever reason (even if it has been passed onto them by a forum administrator), but to criticise them for things that the criticiser has no experience or understanding of is just wrong and smacks of double standards.

I'm just bringing up a point here, not trying to trying to attract a lynch mob. If we can all learn from it and make the forum a nicer place, great

 

[lindsayt]

Of these fabled distortion figures that are bandied about so often, at what point does it become audible? 0.0001%? 0.001%? 0.011%? I know it depends on frequency, but generally speaking. Also could an example of an inadequately designed modern amp or dac be given please? God......I've been sucked in. Please accept my most interfrastic apologies for asking this question.

THD+N as a percentage depends not just on the frequency but also on the power for all components that have transistors / op amps in the signal path.

As far as I know a comprehensive set of THD+N measurements for all power levels found in DAC's and pre-amps has never been made. Mainly because traditional measuring equipment has too much internal electrical noise to measure the tiny signals found in DACs and pre-amps. Music is based on a logarithmic power scale. We are talking about a vast range of power from the quietest signal to the loudest.

For anyone claiming that any particular DAC or pre-amp has neglible amounts of distortion, my reaction is: prove it! Show me the comprehensive set of measurements taken by someone that I can trust.

For the low level details at the start of Ravel's Bolero it's quite possible that transistor / op-amp based pre-amps will be giving THD+N distortion of over 10% which will be audible.

 

[steve_1979]

Of these fabled distortion figures that are bandied about so often, at what point does it become audible? 0.0001%? 0.001%? 0.011%? I know it depends on frequency, but generally speaking.

This is a really interesting question (sometimes I surprise even myself at the ridiculously dull things that interest me).

Seriously though, it is an interesting point and my guess is that it would depend on many different factors. Here are three that spring to mind:

1. The sensitivity of the listeners hearing.
2. The type of noise being produced before the distortion is added.
3. The type of distortion that's added.

Also could an example of an inadequately designed modern amp or dac be given please?

I think that this can of worms is best left unopened.

 

[char_lotte]

Of these fabled distortion figures that are bandied about so often, at what point does it become audible? 0.0001%? 0.001%? 0.011%? I know it depends on frequency, but generally speaking. Also could an example of an inadequately designed modern amp or dac be given please? God......I've been sucked in. Please accept my most interfrastic apologies for asking this question.

THD+N as a percentage depends not just on the frequency but also on the power for all components that have transistors / op amps in the signal path.

As far as I know a comprehensive set of THD+N measurements for all power levels found in DAC's and pre-amps has never been made. Mainly because traditional measuring equipment has too much internal electrical noise to measure the tiny signals found in DACs and pre-amps. Music is based on a logarithmic power scale. We are talking about a vast range of power from the quietest signal to the loudest.

For anyone claiming that any particular DAC or pre-amp has neglible amounts of distortion, my reaction is: prove it! Show me the comprehensive set of measurements taken by someone that I can trust.

For the low level details at the start of Ravel's Bolero it's quite possible that transistor / op-amp based pre-amps will be giving THD+N distortion of over 10% which will be audible.

Thanks Lindsayt....Appreciate your reply.

 

[Anonymous]

My point is that some manufacturers, Naim for example, get slagged off on various sections of this forum and AVI's (by AVI advocates) for going to extreme lengths in order to make improvements to their equipment, even if the benefits are minuscule. But AVI do it and it's ok, all for the best, and to be expected. I get that some people will have a dislike for some manufacturers for whatever reason (even if it has been passed onto them by a forum administrator), but to criticise them for things that the criticiser has no experience or understanding of is just wrong and smacks of double standards.

I'm just bringing up a point here, not trying to trying to attract a lynch mob. If we can all learn from it and make the forum a nicer place, great

The reason "I think" Buying Naim is a waste of good money is because their products are ridiculously expensive for what you get, IMO, and they charge a fortune for external power supplies that have never even been proven to improve anything at all, I wouldn't say supplying a £2k mains lead is "going to extreme lengths" either, nor is changing from a high quality DAC that AFAIK cost about a Fiver, to another high quality DAC that's technically better and might cost £4.50.

[edited by mods - please no personal attacks]

 

[char_lotte]

My point is that some manufacturers, Naim for example, get slagged off on various sections of this forum and AVI's (by AVI advocates) for going to extreme lengths in order to make improvements to their equipment, even if the benefits are minuscule. But AVI do it and it's ok, all for the best, and to be expected. I get that some people will have a dislike for some manufacturers for whatever reason (even if it has been passed onto them by a forum administrator), but to criticise them for things that the criticiser has no experience or understanding of is just wrong and smacks of double standards.

I'm just bringing up a point here, not trying to trying to attract a lynch mob. If we can all learn from it and make the forum a nicer place, great

The reason "I think" Buying Naim is a waste of good money is because their products are ridiculously expensive for what you get, IMO, and they charge a fortune for external power supplies that have never even been proven to improve anything at all, I wouldn't say supplying a £2k mains lead is "going to extreme lengths" either, nor is changing from a high quality DAC that AFAIK cost about a Fiver, to another high quality DAC that's technically better and might cost £4.50.

This distortion is clearly audible.

 

[John Duncan]

This distortion is clearly audible.

We like you. You are funny.

 

[char_lotte]

This distortion is clearly audible.

We like you. You are funny.

Back atcha......

 

[Frank Harvey]

The reason "I think" Buying Naim is a waste of good money is because their products are ridiculously expensive for what you get, IMO, and they charge a fortune for external power supplies that have never even been proven to improve anything at all, I wouldn't say supplying a £2k mains lead is "going to extreme lengths" either, nor is changing from a high quality DAC that AFAIK cost about a Fiver, to another high quality DAC that's technically better and might cost £4.50.

Max, you only think you know what you know about Naim because of the forums you frequent. You had no idea before then, and you still don't, because you've probably never heard any. I've done several demos recently where people have chosen the Naim because they liked what they heard. People will either choose what they like the sound of, because they want to enjoy their system, or they'll go by specs and choose something that's as accurate as possible. The two will always exist, so trying to convert people is futile.

 

[Anonymous]

David, am I right in saying that you think all AVI owners slag off Naim at the behest of Ashley James? Because it does appear that that's what you're saying. I think that you should make it clear if that's what you mean. And I think the mods should consider that an attack on anyone here that owns AVI product/s.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Nope. Not all.

 

[John Duncan]

(can feel the big red button coming on)

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'll butt out then and let them continue - I just wanted to make a point, which has been done.

 

[Phileas]

My point is that some manufacturers, Naim for example, get slagged off on various sections of this forum and AVI's (by AVI advocates) for going to extreme lengths in order to make improvements to their equipment, even if the benefits are minuscule. But AVI do it and it's ok, all for the best, and to be expected. I get that some people will have a dislike for some manufacturers for whatever reason (even if it has been passed onto them by a forum administrator), but to criticise them for things that the criticiser has no experience or understanding of is just wrong and smacks of double standards.

I'm just bringing up a point here, not trying to trying to attract a lynch mob. If we can all learn from it and make the forum a nicer place, great

Before John locks this one, my point is that doing something which costs nothing, costs nothing, so there's no problem.

But there's no point adding vast amounts to the cost of something to make an inaudible "improvement".

 

[Overdose]

Also could an example of an inadequately designed modern amp or dac be given please?

Honest and open information here......

http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/nuforce-udac-2-drama.html

 

[Frank Harvey]

But there's no point adding vast amounts to the cost of something to make an inaudible "improvement".

Depending what 'it' is, is it inaudible though?

 

[the record spot]

However, all well designed, properly implimented DAC's and pre-amps (such as the ones used in the ADM's) have such low levels of distortion and colouration which makes them so similar that as far as anyone can hear, they do sound identical. A good example of this is the cheap Logitech SB Touch which sounds identical to the very expensive Benchmark DAC1 even when compared using £10,000 worth of ATC speakers.

See posts 12 and 13 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/my-dream-system-oh-maybe-one-day?page=14

And of course, the new DAC that went into the ADM9.1T which superseded the ADM9.1 turned out to have an audible difference too Steve. One of the things Ash quoted a year or two back. Slight, but noticeable. And am improvement if memory serves.

Actually, what is a well designed and properly implemented DAC anyway? Well designed from scratch and apropos of nothing, or well designed and implemented for the application they end up going into? I understood that a good DAC chip is under £1 and a class leading one a little more.

 

[Anonymous]

The reason "I think" Buying Naim is a waste of good money is because their products are ridiculously expensive for what you get, IMO, and they charge a fortune for external power supplies that have never even been proven to improve anything at all, I wouldn't say supplying a £2k mains lead is "going to extreme lengths" either, nor is changing from a high quality DAC that AFAIK cost about a Fiver, to another high quality DAC that's technically better and might cost £4.50.

Max, you only think you know what you know about Naim because of the forums you frequent. You had no idea before then, and you still don't, because you've probably never heard any. I've done several demos recently where people have chosen the Naim because they liked what they heard. People will either choose what they like the sound of, because they want to enjoy their system, or they'll go by specs and choose something that's as accurate as possible. The two will always exist, so trying to convert people is futile.

I could answer all those silly accusations and assumptions, but that might make waves which could lead to consequences, for me.

Or I could ask you a bunch of similar questions, or make similar accusations and assumptions to you, but that might also make waves which could lead to consequences, for me.

So you win, David, because I can't get involved like you can, ces't la vie...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Feel free to suggest some neutral ground.