Question Way too boomy

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Trying to think clearly about this percentage business is giving me a headache!

Firstly, it seems suspiciously precise - any percentage room effect will depend upon the frequencies featuring most heavily in what you are listening to, and very much on how loud you are playing it.

But does anyone really think that if you took the stereo outside you'd be bathing in the majestic 15% that you can now magically hear?

It seems to me that all you need do is buy appropriately-sized speakers which are happy to be sited where you wish, partner them with kit that doesn't provoke any weaknesses they might possess and sit in a suitable position. Simples.

 

[jedaisoul]

One option that no one seems to have suggested is the use of a sub-woofer? Not specifically to extend the bass (though that is not ruled out) but to give you more flexibility in room placement. You said that it is impractical to move the main speakers, so move the bass?

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Sorry but I am going to differ because this could be said of any manufacturer and their products.

I even get questioned and criticized for not only using but also recommending basic 79 strand speaker cables, ‘freebie’ interconnects and highlighting and recommending discontinued or used products. Go figure.

Of course it's the same for all manufacturers, some products can stand criticism some fall apart. It's up to us to decipher the rhetoric and decide what is good marketing and what is good engineering.

I wasn't calling into question your reputation Rick as I believe you are straight and honest and have no ulterior motive apart from imparting good information. I do, however, call into question Mr Lyngdorf's percentages and motives. Once on the open market his kit will either flourish or wither and die dependent on the end users impressions.

 

[Al ears]

Of course it's the same for all manufacturers, some products can stand criticism some fall apart. It's up to us to decipher the rhetoric and decide what is good marketing and what is good engineering.

I wasn't calling into question your reputation Rick as I believe you are straight and honest and have no ulterior motive apart from imparting good information. I do, however, call into question Mr Lyngdorf's percentages and motives. Once on the open market his kit will either flourish or wither and die dependent on the end users impressions.

I would tend to agree regarding his percentage figures, not sure where he got them from but surely influence of the room is going to be disproportional to room size if using the same setup.

 

[scene]

One thing you could try, which won't cost anything, is to angle in your speakers slightly - without moving them 10-15 degrees is worth trying. It may help, as the rear ports are no longer pointing straight at the wall and might help with the acoustics. Bass booming can be a problem with room acoustics, and moving the speakers, even angling can help, without having to look at expensive room treatments.

One question: you say the speakers are in your den. Has this got a hard floor, shelving, etc? Are there any soft furnishings in the room - carpets, rugs, curtains? If not, this can make the room a bit bass boom and could be helped by adding some soft bass absorbing items.

 

[TrevC]

This will fix it. https://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/anti-mode--DC.htm

 

[Fahad]

One option that no one seems to have suggested is the use of a sub-woofer? Not specifically to extend the bass (though that is not ruled out) but to give you more flexibility in room placement. You said that it is impractical to move the main speakers, so move the bass?

Fight fire with fire? sound expensive though

 

[Fahad]

One thing you could try, which won't cost anything, is to angle in your speakers slightly - without moving them 10-15 degrees is worth trying. It may help, as the rear ports are no longer pointing straight at the wall and might help with the acoustics. Bass booming can be a problem with room acoustics, and moving the speakers, even angling can help, without having to look at expensive room treatments.

One question: you say the speakers are in your den. Has this got a hard floor, shelving, etc? Are there any soft furnishings in the room - carpets, rugs, curtains? If not, this can make the room a bit bass boom and could be helped by adding some soft bass absorbing items.

Actually I tried something today which did not necessarily solve the bass problem (slightly reduced) but improved the sound quite a bit (at least to my ears). As one of the guys suggested, I threw some large cushions in towards the back of the speakers - at the two corners of the room. Created a board platform resting on four large rubber door stops (saw on you tube that some guy used big thick cutting boards to place the floorstanders on top of the same). Placed the speakers on top of the platform with the spikes going in side 4 more rubber doorstops.

As for the furnishing, the room actually has large shelves on the back wall with my CDs and Vinyls. There are thick curtains covering half a wall, one rug, a double seater leather couch and center table.

 

[Al ears]

Actually I tried something today which did not necessarily solve the bass problem (slightly reduced) but improved the sound quite a bit (at least to my ears). As one of the guys suggested, I threw some large cushions in towards the back of the speakers - at the two corners of the room. Created a board platform resting on four large rubber door stops (saw on you tube that some guy used big thick cutting boards to place the floorstanders on top of the same). Placed the speakers on top of the platform with the spikes going in side 4 more rubber doorstops.

As for the furnishing, the room actually has large shelves on the back wall with my CDs and Vinyls. There are thick curtains covering half a wall, one rug, a double seater leather couch and center table.

Good idea to isolate your speakers from the floor rather than using spikes. Did the same with my speakers last year, admittedly using a more expensive means of doing so, and the results were worth it.

 

[Fahad]

Good idea to isolate your speakers from the floor rather than using spikes. Did the same with my speakers last year, admittedly using a more expensive means of doing so, and the results were worth it.

What did you use?

 

[Al ears]

What did you use?

I used these, however they are almost as expensive as your speakers....

GAIA III cast metal acoustic isolation stands | IsoAcoustics

isoacoustics.com

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Everything I've had from here has been good:

Hifi noise isolation magnetic levitation feet | Solid Air Audio

Hifi noise isolation magnetic levitation feet. Achieve the most superb quality sound from your hifi equipment with Solidair audio.

solidairaudio.com

But try the basic things first, obviously.

 

[davidf]

I do think too much is made of reflected sound. To state 15% is pretty precise, but the actual figure (whatever that may be), will vary depending on the size of room, how it’s furnished and decorated, as well as the speakers chosen for the room. The latter is hugely overlooked.

For argument’s sake, let’s take rooms at the very extremes - compare a large bathroom to an anechoic chamber. One is dead, the other is very, very live. Obviously, the percentage of reflected sound is going to be quite different in both situations, and our listening rooms will be somewhere along a line between the two - with some being quite different.

ALL loudspeakers are going to sound very different in either type of situation, but you will find some that will work in one of those situations better than the other.

Reflections can be good though. It creates a sense of space. I remember attending a function at a hotel/restaurant once where they had a string quartet playing in the corner of the room. Was there any treatment in the room? No, it was a large dining hall filled with the usual, and plenty of woodwork. Did it still sound like a string quartet? of course it did. The direct sound you hear tells you that. You don’t immediately think that there’s issues at certain frequencies and go and room correct the instruments. The reflections present the size of the space you’re in. If you go to the National Indoor Arena to a gig, it usually sounds shite because of the size of the space and lots of reflective surfaces (so I usually stand by the mixing desk), but our listening rooms are far from this problematic.

EVERYTHING has a resonant frequency. Any instrument will sound louder at certain frequencies than others due to a note hitting the instrument’s resonant frequency - would you want to correct this with digital circuitry?

You can alter a loudspeaker’s output to produce a near accurate reproduction in one listening position, but you then cannot do the same for a listening position 2 feet away at the same time.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Of course it's the same for all manufacturers, some products can stand criticism some fall apart. It's up to us to decipher the rhetoric and decide what is good marketing and what is good engineering.

I wasn't calling into question your reputation Rick as I believe you are straight and honest and have no ulterior motive apart from imparting good information. I do, however, call into question Mr Lyngdorf's percentages and motives. Once on the open market his kit will either flourish or wither and die dependent on the end users impressions.

No worries. I know. Thanks anyway.

Like i said on another couple of threads i first heard a Lyngdorf Audio amplifier in the form of their TDAI-2170 at a clients house. Our clients view is that the TDAI-2170 "wipes the floor clean" with his multi box and far more expensive DAC and pre/power amplification. I had a look and listen and agree with our client.

Subsequently looked further into Lyngdorf Audio and got hold of a TDAI-3400. My experience of the TDAI-2170 now the TDAI-3400 has given me the confidence to support the brand and use a TDAI-3400 as part of my system. When its appropiate to do so i'll be more than content sharing my personal experience with others and to recommend their products to our clients.

Btw, their AV Products such as the MP-60 have been extremely well received by the press and are causing quite a stir. And likewise the TDAI-2170 and TDAI-3400 are already selling in the market. The new TDAI-1120 is yet to be released and fwiw, the last unit of our initial order was sold yesterday evening. I placed another order for the TDAI-1120 earlier on today.

After several emails and a long chat about Lyngdorf Audio's RoomPerfect room correction, true digital amplification, seamless subwoofer integration, digital voicing equalizer, etc. our client (initially contacted us about a Hegel H90) who bought the TDAI-1120 yesterday evening wasn't even aware of Lyngdorf Audio until a few days ago emailed me the following -

"Thanks for taking the time to email me all the info, it is very much appreciated, you certainly have opened my eyes to alternative brands and options."

"The Lyngdorf looks like a great amp, I like the ethos behind it, it’s looks and the way it combines analogue and digital sources."

 

[TrevC]

I do think too much is made of reflected sound. To state 15% is pretty precise, but the actual figure (whatever that may be), will vary depending on the size of room, how it’s furnished and decorated, as well as the speakers chosen for the room. The latter is hugely overlooked.

For argument’s sake, let’s take rooms at the very extremes - compare a large bathroom to an anechoic chamber. One is dead, the other is very, very live. Obviously, the percentage of reflected sound is going to be quite different in both situations, and our listening rooms will be somewhere along a line between the two - with some being quite different.

ALL loudspeakers are going to sound very different in either type of situation, but you will find some that will work in one of those situations better than the other.

Reflections can be good though. It creates a sense of space. I remember attending a function at a hotel/restaurant once where they had a string quartet playing in the corner of the room. Was there any treatment in the room? No, it was a large dining hall filled with the usual, and plenty of woodwork. Did it still sound like a string quartet? of course it did. The direct sound you hear tells you that. You don’t immediately think that there’s issues at certain frequencies and go and room correct the instruments. The reflections present the size of the space you’re in. If you go to the National Indoor Arena to a gig, it usually sounds shite because of the size of the space and lots of reflective surfaces (so I usually stand by the mixing desk), but our listening rooms are far from this problematic.

EVERYTHING has a resonant frequency. Any instrument will sound louder at certain frequencies than others due to a note hitting the instrument’s resonant frequency - would you want to correct this with digital circuitry?

You can alter a loudspeaker’s output to produce a near accurate reproduction in one listening position, but you then cannot do the same for a listening position 2 feet away at the same time.

Equalizing the room for a flat response doesn't equalize the resonances of musical instruments of course. It just makes a huge improvement to the overall sound quality. With the Antimodes you can compromise by running the set up with the microphone in different positions.

 

[davidf]

Equalizing the room for a flat response doesn't equalize the resonances of musical instruments of course. It just makes a huge improvement to the overall sound quality. With the Antimodes you can compromise by running the set up with the microphone in different positions.

I think you misunderstand - I wasn’t claiming it would, but it’s not the sort of thing you’d do even if it was an option.

 

[TrevC]

So why suggest it? Never mind.

 

[davidf]

So why suggest it? Never mind.

I’m saying that you wouldn't attempt to digitally remove the resonant frequency of a natural instrument would you - and if you did, would it still sound like the instrument?

And my point earlier was that you can digitally treat a single point, but once you start treating more than one point, you’re then compromising the correction, so you’re no longer getting what the manufacturer claims from the EQ. And you physically cannot make a system sound it’s best in every point in the room - that’s one mahoosive compromise.

 

[TrevC]

I’m saying that you wouldn't attempt to digitally remove the resonant frequency of a natural instrument would you - and if you did, would it still sound like the instrument?

What has this to do with the price of beer? Nothing. We are equalizing a room, not an instrument. Will a room still sound like a room when you equalize it?

And my point earlier was that you can digitally treat a single point, but once you start treating more than one point, you’re then compromising the correction, so you’re no longer getting what the manufacturer claims from the EQ. And you physically cannot make a system sound it’s best in every point in the room - that’s one mahoosive compromise.

If you make it sound much better from your normal listening position it will sound better around the rest of the room as well. I'm using it (subwoofer version) , it certainly does. You can modify the curve slightly by placing the microphone in other positions in the room where you like to listen and running another sweep. No more boom.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Actually I tried something today which did not necessarily solve the bass problem (slightly reduced) but improved the sound quite a bit (at least to my ears). As one of the guys suggested, I threw some large cushions in towards the back of the speakers - at the two corners of the room. Created a board platform resting on four large rubber door stops (saw on you tube that some guy used big thick cutting boards to place the floorstanders on top of the same). Placed the speakers on top of the platform with the spikes going in side 4 more rubber doorstops.

As for the furnishing, the room actually has large shelves on the back wall with my CDs and Vinyls. There are thick curtains covering half a wall, one rug, a double seater leather couch and center table.

Glad you saw the post, glad you're getting somewhere with it now.

Another trick is to find a mirror (might need a friend for this) sit in your seating position and get your friend/other half to stand on the sidewall moving along it till you see the corresponding speaker reflection (right wall right speaker) Obversily keeping the mirror level not skewing it toward the speaker.
Place something large and soft their (where the reflection is) cushion or other, do the same on the other side.
Keeping the cushions behind the speakers.

Should help massively, though I doubt you'll get rid of it entirely.

I have no idea what other the guys are talking about with the room reflections, Its called standing waves and its what EQ systems try to elevate with slight delays and other cleaver math things.

If the Speakers are at one end of a room and your at the other all your hearing is nearly 100% reflected sound. It's a simple experiment with a sink of water and stone, just watch the ripples. The ripples will not hit the other side (seating position) without being interrupted If dropped near the boundary and thats 1 stone!(speaker is the stone) The only way ripples/waves do not interact with one another is if the stone is dropped nearer the centre, hence the further you move the speakers out the less the room interacts, dropping 100% down maybe to 90 or 80% reflected sound. But at this point, you also run the risk hearing no sound (nulls!) depends on the size of the room and timings as the waves will cancel each other out at certain points (these are the intersecting points of the wave).

Boom is propagation ie waves all hitting the same point at the same time leading to an increase in volume BOOM!

Speakers excite rooms in different ways depending on where placed. To hear nothing but the speaker the room either needs to be large, non-existent, heavily damped or the speaker needs to be placed near on centre of the room and you with them. This is called the Cardis theory

Don't get me wrong though you're still hearing the tone of the speakers, it just changed slightly, think of it as game Chinese whispers by the time you hear it something has been lost or something has been added.

You'll get there though, I know you say you can't move the speakers but even moving your seating position and inch or 2 can make a massive difference and the same with the speakers, It really doesn't have to be massive movements

 

[Fahad]

Glad you saw the post, glad you're getting somewhere with it now.

Another trick is to find a mirror (might need a friend for this) sit in your seating position and get your friend/other half to stand on the sidewall moving along it till you see the corresponding speaker reflection (right wall right speaker) Obversily keeping the mirror level not skewing it toward the speaker.
Place something large and soft their (where the reflection is) cushion or other, do the same on the other side.
Keeping the cushions behind the speakers.

Should help massively, though I doubt you'll get rid of it entirely.

Both the walls are filled with paintings and there is a heavy curtain one side covering half the wall. So maybe on the side that does not have curtain. Will try over the weekend

 

[Will1962]

Is your sofa seating position against the back wall because if it is that will most definitely cause boomy bass as I found out myself!.

 

[Fahad]

Is your sofa seating position against the back wall because if it is that will most definitely cause boomy bass as I found out myself!.

yeah it is, the wall behind the couch is pretty much covered though with a CD shelf and a vinyl rack.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Try moving the sofa forwards - I don't know if that's a permanent option but at least you'd know if it's a major cause. It may well be.

 

[gasolin]

Have you tried the Q acoustiocs 3020i or 3030i in your room, they only have 1 woofer but still enough power for most people