valve amplification

[floyd droid]

Oh blimey, that will be fun . Obviously tis best you hold fire a bit anyways until you are sorted in the new house.

Can you confirm elac 330s !?.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I tend to agree with the audio critic:

The Vacuum-Tube Lie
This lie is also, in a sense, about a peripheral matter, since vacuum tubes are hardly mainstream in the age of silicon. It's an all-pervasive lie, however, in the high-end audio market; just count the tube-equipment ads as a percentage of total ad pages in the typical high-end magazine. Unbelievable! And so is, of course, the claim that vacuum tubes are inherently superior to transistors in audio applications--don't you believe it.

Tubes are great for high-powered RF transmitters and microwave ovens but not, at the turn of the century, for amplifiers, preamps, or (good grief!) digital components like CD and DVD players. What's wrong with tubes? Nothing, really. There's nothing wrong with gold teeth, either, even for upper incisors (that Mideastern grin); it's just that modern dentistry offers more attractive options. Whatever vacuum tubes can do in a piece of audio equipment, solid-state devices can do better, at lower cost, with greater reliability. Even the world's best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier and will almost certainly need more servicing (tube replacements, rebiasing, etc.) during its lifetime. (Idiotic designs such as 8-watt single-ended triode amplifiers are of course exempt, by default, from such comparisons since they have no solid-state counterpart.)

As for the "tube sound," there are two possibilities: (1) It's a figment of the deluded audiophile's imagination, or (2) it's a deliberate coloration introduced by the manufacturer to appeal to corrupted tastes, in which case a solid-state design could easily mimic the sound if the designer were perverse enough to want it that way.

Yes, there exist very special situations where a sophisticated designer of hi-fi electronics might consider using a tube (e.g., the RF stage of an FM tuner), but those rare and narrowly qualified exceptions cannot redeem the common, garden-variety lies of the tube marketers, who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.

so, I guess that it'll come with a great shock to audio critic to find doubt that even today tubes are considered a better voltage amplifiers than transistors (transistors on the other hand are without par for current amplification). I guess tubes are not used more widely these days because tube amps are usually hand assembled with point to point soldering and SS gear, as everybody knows, is just LEGO block jobies with prefabricated PCBs, which are much cheaper to manufacture and assemble.

also read again and again (until you fully understand what it means and consequences it brings into your listening experience) that very comprehensive post by Lindsayt re. amplifier distortion at low power levels and their consequence - low volume levels. I hope your speakers are 80dB efficient...

 

[jaxwired]

You have to compare apples to apples. You can't compate a $8000 tube amp to a $500 mass produced solid state amp and claim superiority. Although, even in that case I have no doubt the SS amp would have lower distortion.

It really just comes down to distortion and signal noise levels for me. And I've tried valves so I'm not just basing this opinion on blogs. Get a good tube amp or preamp, turn them on and put your ear to the tweeter. Do the same with a good SS amp. Anybody can hear the differences. And if you can't hear it, it can be easily measured. I just happen to think that less distortion equals better music. I don't see how any other conclusion is possible.

As for the recent increase in popularity of valve amps, that's hardly strong evidence of it's supriority over SS gear. The flat earth theory was very popular.

 

[CnoEvil]

You have to compare apples to apples. You can't compate a $8000 tube amp to a $500 mass produced solid state amp and claim superiority. Although, even in that case I have no doubt the SS amp would have lower distortion.

It really just comes down to distortion and signal noise levels for me. And I've tried valves so I'm not just basing this opinion on blogs. Get a good tube amp or preamp, turn them on and put your ear to the tweeter. Do the same with a good SS amp. Anybody can hear the differences. And if you can't hear it, it can be easily measured. I just happen to think that less distortion equals better music. I don't see how any other conclusion is possible.

As for the recent increase in popularity of valve amps, that's hardly strong evidence of it's supriority over SS gear. The flat earth theory was very popular.

Jax, IMO this shouldn't be a technical argument about distortion, but whether one prefers the sound that comes out of the speakers. You have at least tried it, and discovered it's not for you....though you might be surprised by the way VTL can sound.

I quite understand, that for certain individual preferences over presentation and tastes in music, the Valve amp is not the right solution......but there are certain things that valves do that SS just can't match, and I don't think anyone who is inquisitive enough to experience this, should be put off.

There is certainly no harm in highlighting the downsides, but many people find the strengths more than compensate, especially for certain genres of music.

I hope you know that I'm not "having a go", but putting the alternative viewpoint.

Cno

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

You have to compare apples to apples. You can't compate a $8000 tube amp to a $500 mass produced solid state amp and claim superiority. Although, even in that case I have no doubt the SS amp would have lower distortion.

like I said. read and reread Lindsayt's post until you fully grasp its meaning. SS gear have vanishingly low distortion at high power outputs = deafening volume levels (even 100Wpc from average speakers is capable of producing some 100dB in average room which is without question harmful for hearing), but what matters most is volume levels where most music is happening, not volume levels at which full philharmonic orchestra peaks.

and BTW. you don't need to spend 8000USD to get hand made tube amp. Prima Luna amps are for instance hand made and don't cost earth.

It really just comes down to distortion and signal noise levels for me. And I've tried valves so I'm not just basing this opinion on blogs. Get a good tube amp or preamp, turn them on and put your ear to the tweeter. Do the same with a good SS amp. Anybody can hear the differences.

well I did hear the difference myself too. I have a SS class D amp and a hybrid class AB amp. with SS amp on you could easily hear hisssing 1m away from the speakers (no music on). with the hybrid one (no feedback class A tube preamp on 6DJ8 tubes) you might hear something but only if you pout your ear right up against the speakers.

And if you can't hear it, it can be easily measured.

and this is the funniest bit. my class D amp measures in excess 100dB SNR. the hybrid class AB one poultry 90dB SNR. now, how could I even hear any hissing from SS amp?

I just happen to think that less distortion equals better music. I don't see how any other conclusion is possible.

fair enough, but do you even know how much harmonic distortion your speakers introduce? far more than your amp. you'll be lucky if you get 0.5% in the midrange. and you definitely get more than 2% in bass with small woofers.

another thing to consider is distortion values at power levels where most music is happening? not at clipping thresholds for SS amps with feedback (in such designs you always get decreasing THD values against power until clipping kicks in, but comparatively high THD values below 1W of power).

 

[gbhsi1]

Oh blimey, that will be fun . Obviously tis best you hold fire a bit anyways until you are sorted in the new house.

Can you confirm elac 330s !?.

ermmm sorry meant the elac 310's not 330 (although they are beauties) fun indeed

 

[jaxwired]

Jax, IMO this shouldn't be a technical argument about distortion, but whether one prefers the sound that comes out of the speakers. You have at least tried it, and discovered it's not for you....though you might be surprised by the way VTL can sound.

I quite understand, that for certain individual preferences over presentation and tastes in music, the Valve amp is not the right solution......but there are certain things that valves do that SS just can't match, and I don't think anyone who is inquisitive enough to experience this, should be put off.

There is certainly no harm in highlighting the downsides, but many people find the strengths more than compensate, especially for certain genres of music.

I hope you know that I'm not "having a go", but putting the alternative viewpoint.

Cno

To each his own. Good post.

 

[floyd droid]

ermmm sorry meant the elac 310's not 330 (although they are beauties) fun indeed

:doh: lol. I was thinking , jeez 600 quid amp 3700 quid speakers,ok whatever .

 

[gbhsi1]

ermmm sorry meant the elac 310's not 330 (although they are beauties) fun indeed

:doh: lol. I was thinking , jeez 600 quid amp 3700 quid speakers,ok whatever .

if I had that kind of money I would be out buying stuff £1400 is pretty expensive for me.

 

[Overdose]

of course it does, people don't demand something inferior for the same money especially if its going obsolete. E.g. Hd-dvd player prices after it lost the warner deal....prices tumbled!

I'm am absolutely certain that this happens, particularly in hifi.

 

[floyd droid]

Are you within striking distance of Cornwall gb ?. Because you are more that welcome to plonk your Neats in the boot and pootle down here for a taster of the darkside. Actually i wouldnt mind betting your Roksan would be on the bay in a trice once you have pulled yourself back together .

Im sure the powers that be would sort out email addys if you are up for it one weekend.

 

[Anonymous]

Ever listened to a valve amp? Maybe then you will find out people still listen to them.

 

[Anonymous]

I can see lots of disadvantages to valve amps, low power output and high distortion to name two, but what are the advantages? Why are they still made and bought?

Have you ever listened to a valve amplifier? Maybe then you will find out people still listen to them!

 

[gbhsi1]

Are you within striking distance of Cornwall gb ?. Because you are more that welcome to plonk your Neats in the boot and pootle down here for a taster of the darkside. Actually i wouldnt mind betting your Roksan would be on the bay in a trice once you have pulled yourself back together .

Im sure the powers that be would sort out email addys if you are up for it one weekend.

I'm pretty far away from Cornwall but thanks very much for the offer....it's probably best I'm not near by as I would come home after hearing valve amplification and cry! ha ha...I'll want one now!

 

[shafesk]

It's an experience not for everyone, *certainly if you listen to a lot of dance music it won't be the best thing*, solid state is more suited to those.

Unless, of course, if your speakers have a pair of Audio Research Reference 750s up their bottom .

My 845s dont fair too badly either .

Neither do my MS 6's . Having said that, I tested out the pm 7004 against it and it had more grip on the low end, so did my ca 340 a (believe it or not)....the low end is plentiful but as I am used to the bass from my AKG k702s, I like utterly precise bass with anal control

 

[floyd droid]

Neither do my MS 6's .

Eh ?. Are we singing from the same hymn book ?.

 

[shafesk]

Quite possibly so my friend

 

[WinterRacer]

I can see lots of disadvantages to valve amps, low power output and high distortion to name two, but what are the advantages? Why are they still made and bought?

Have you ever listened to a valve amplifier? Maybe then you will find out people still listen to them!

Yes, to be honest it sounded fine. I'm not in the market though as my preference is for active speakers.

 

[acalex]

Well...I can't consider myself an expert in the "Hi-fi" world but I feel quite comfortable in adding my point of view at this regards as I have been able to demo quite a lot last 9 months and I ended up buying a "low-power" old-style valve amp.

Not sure about all technical specs in terms of distorsion, harmonics etc...but since the final purpose of this hobby/passion is to listen to music, I guess everybody should buy whatever is more pleasent to listen in the end, correct?

Would you discard an amp or a type of sound/presentation you love if somebody would show you how much distortion it produces compared to another amp which you liked less?

I have been demoing a lot of SS amps of any brand, class A, AB, D, ranging from 2k to 14k euro...and I ended up buying an old fashion completely hand-made tube amp rated 35W "only". Why is that?

Because the type of sound presentation it provided was so much intense, rich and emotional that at each time I switched it on it was like melting...and I couldn't stop listening to it. Then matched to a good turntable and a tube phonostage was the most beautiful thing I have ever listened.

Today I don't regret a single time the choice I have made (which was a difficult one, you can read my over 400 posts thread if interested ) and I appreciate everyday a bit more the quality of sound. I won't switch to solid state anymore.

Just my 2c if that could be of any interest :cheer:

 

[floyd droid]

Quite possibly so my friend

Ok Shafesk ,please enlighten me as to what MS 6s are ?.

 

[chebby]

Quite possibly so my friend

Ok Shafesk ,please enlighten me as to what MS 6s are ?.

In his sig.

Mordaunt Short Mezzo 6s

http://www.whathifi.com/review/mordaunt-short-mezzo-6

 

[floyd droid]

Shhhh Chebby i know that, just having a bit of fun. Im certain Mr Shafesk has got some wires crossed regarding my 845s. Have a read

 

[shafesk]

Quite possibly so my friend

Ok Shafesk ,please enlighten me as to what MS 6s are ?.

:? Why they are my speakers, mordaunt short mezzo 6s...I meant they have good bottom end ....I think I got lost in translation

 

[shafesk]

Shhhh Chebby i know that, just having a bit of fun. Im certain Mr Shafesk has got some wires crossed regarding my 845s. Have a read

yup, got confused....I need my caffeine :beer:

 

[shafesk]

Shhhh Chebby i know that, just having a bit of fun. Im certain Mr Shafesk has got some wires crossed regarding my 845s. Have a read

You were playing me all along weren't you? :clap: