The cable debate (Oh NO!!) SORRY

[ellisdj]

It amazes me people dont hear differences between cables - it really does. Price irrelevant.

I have never once changed out a cable and not heard a difference and I have done a fair amout of changing.

I have also gone to other rooms, with other systems and made changes where I have nothing to do with the cables and always heard a difference.

I wonder if those people who dont hear a difference - hear a difference if they change the links in the back of the speaker to actual cable?

I also wonder how loud they listen and if that has anything to do with it - just curious.

I also completely disgagree that a good gauge of copper is needed as well - that is not true at all, although I did think that until a couple of weeks ago

 

[bigboss]

idc is a regular member here who even made cables. He was initially a firm believer that cables make a difference. He often talks about a "sweet spot" in cables & says that if you match the loudness on changing a cable, there shouldn't be any difference.

Check his blog:

http://idc1966.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[bigboss]

Check these 2 contrasting posts of his:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cabling-the-truth-will-out#comment-1055553

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/how-many-do-you-believe-make-a-difference#comment-1252907

He challenged his own beliefs & came up with different conclusions.

 

[ellisdj]

with a digital display you always match the volume i.e. I set to 69 or 70 on my new processor

It was -20 to -25db on my receiver before it so the volume level should always be the same in this instance so testing should be fair on that account

My uncle has been buying diifferent hifi bits for years, he admits he is half deaf and yet still keeps changing speakers and components every now and then, I am sure for the change and the excitement of getting something new and hearing it for the first time - we all know that feeling.

He says he cant hear the difference between certain things - such as 128kbs mp3, 320kbs mp3 and a full WAV.

He listens to a lot of music compressed hard and put on memory sticks as he says he cant hear the difference, but he plays only ever at low volumes that I have heard anyways and I wonder if that is why.

 

[steve_1979]

You've taken your first step, into a larger world

Give into to the darkside. 😛

Try using blind tests when comparing digital cables to see if you can hear any difference between them when you don't know which one you listening to.

 

[Anonymous]

It amazes me people dont hear differences between cables - it really does. Price irrelevant.

I could Visa V you on that one! Blind listen test and pick a winner. That is the test I made, see below on how I tested. I am talking about speaker cable only!

I have never once changed out a cable and not heard a difference and I have done a fair amout of changing.

The test I made was on speaker cable. Speaker cable was all I was testing.

I have also gone to other rooms, with other systems and made changes where I have nothing to do with the cables and always heard a difference.

The room is one of the main factors in how the system will sound i.e. solid floor v raised floor v hardfloor, sofa's, curtains etc.... The same system can sound very different in a different room enviroment.

I wonder if those people who dont hear a difference - hear a difference if they change the links in the back of the speaker to actual cable?

I do not believe in Bi-wiring (I think that is what you are talking about when you say the links in the back), hence the speakers I have (not going to mention any name/ product as that will dictate another view) only have a + and -. I have tested Bi-wiring with a friends very nice quailty transmission line speakers (blind test) and again we could hear no difference. Bi-amping with DSP, yes a difference. Each driver of the speaker getting the exact frequency range/ amplified of low, mid and high to each driver in the loudspeaker now that makes technical sense and audible difference. Another friend of mine has this DSP/ Triple amp set up per channel three way loudspeaker. We between us have listened for many hours the different set ups and can see the true gain v no gain in system changes you can apply.


I also wonder how loud they listen and if that has anything to do with it - just curious.

I listen at a realistic level to give the feel of the music but as not to damage my ears 😉 When I tested I had each set of speaker cables wired up to my amp on the A and B side speaker selector switch, played the same track (CD) at the same volume (did not move the level), simply swapped the speaker cables (A v B switch, swapped bananas). I played the track over and over, no difference in my case. Hope that helps with your curiosity 🙂

I also completely disgagree that a good gauge of copper is needed as well - that is not true at all, although I did think that until a couple of weeks ago

A good guage OFC copper speaker cable I stand by. I would be very concerned with any good quality OFC speaker cable having a major difference over such a short run in most peoples enviroment i.e.. 3-6m per channel side. If you measure the loop impedence of different speaker cables over a run of 3- 6m I would be concerned if any one cable showed alarmingly high resistance, unless it was faulty 😛ray: However, anyone is free to choose the cable they want either quality/ cost/ brand etc, if they feel its worth the investment then please go-ahead.


A blind listening test not knowing what speaker cable is in use at that time. Pick a winner! If you pick the costly cable spend the money, if you don't as in my case no winner at all, no need to spend your money. 😉 Just use your ears then decide (you could also apply some technical common sense if you understand electronics). 🙂

 

[ellisdj]

I meant I have tested different cables in a different room i.e. someones else system someones else room. I agree the room does play a huge factor in the sound reproduction - as does placement, seating positon etc, however I am very aware of this and the measuring methods and treatment methods available.

I still have never once swapped out a cable and ever thought that sounds the same, in a way I wish I had as I would be a hell of a lot richer. I am not talking digital cables, I mean interconnects and speaker cables. Even when I have nothing ti gain or lose from the siuation i.e. come round and listen and tell me what you think scenario

I did it recently and did an A/B test and the difference to me was not small, it was not a blind test.

I sit there and listened on a system not my own to a song for the first time and I heard messy/ mush in the background and I concentrated on listening to it as I am used to a clearer sound - I tried to work out what it was for the whole song - it was not possible to make out what it was -

Then I changed the speaker cable listened to the exact same song at the same volume then I could clearly hear the background mush as a mixture of instrument noises and some vocal. There was no mistaking that for me - it was a clear difference and that is just one example of how better the second speaker cable was to the first

Where you have used another person to quantify your results - ie. we both heard no difference I am the same the other way round.

I have been with someone changed cables and we have both heard the same or very similar changes to the presentation, without discussing it during.

 

[Anonymous]

I would be very interested to know. What was the quality/ guage/ copper-ofc- silver etc.. cost difference between the speaker cables you changed between? Did the more expensive cable sound better in your opinion? What length per channel are we talking about in your test? :?

Nb: If the first speaker cable was a standard copper cable, light guage and you upgraded to an OFC or silver etc.. then you will hear a difference in detail. That is why I stated, a good guage OFC copper speaker cable. You really do not have to spend a fortune but you do have to invest a bit more than standard copper speaker cable. My test was between OFC copper approx £6/m and the Chord silver £25/ m. I have in the past tested mains 13amp flex v OFC copper speaker cable and the detail and clarity improves when you use OFC copper.

My recent test was tested in isolation by myself. I would have invested in the speaker cable had it made a difference. I have no need to spend money on new speaker cable as the test results were neutral, both my existing OFC copper and new Chord silver sounded the same.

It was during our research into DSP/ triple Amplification per channel that a very clear and dynamic presentation was noted when to quote you 'where you have used another person to quantify your results'. We used the same loudspeakers and built a switch box to cut between the passive crossover v active crossover/ amps per driver. The loudspeaker presentation is greatly improved with DSP/ triple amplification in a 3 way speaker, although more costly. By the way, we don't discuss during when testing, that ensures no influence in any one direction! Oh, we converted my friends transmission line 3 way speakers to active/ 3 amps per channel. Lucky chap he had the funds to invest in this set up.

Its great to experiment. We all want to get the best out of our system setups. Each to their own 😉

I am now looking into experimenting with an external DAC v my CD players in built DAC. The £150 (+ some more cash ) may prove more fruitful investing in an external DAC

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry for the delayed response been busy with other things

The 2 cables were both copper - one was van damme LP UOFC 2.5mm which is a heavy enough gauge of OFC for you I would assume - its actually supposedly better than standard OFC - that was the first cable that was giving the messy sound.

I then put in Graham Slee Spatia which you can read my review of in another thread which is also Copper - I dont think I am allowed to say what type it is - however its nothing too far out of the ordinary to become snake oil such us frozen or anything like that. Its also thinner than 2.5mm - its hard to tell as its covered but I would say 1.5mm. Thats why I said you dont need a heavy gauge of copper to get a great soundign cable.

Either way the difference was night and day between the 2 - the Spatia allowed me to clearly hear the background detail as I described eariler which with the Van damme cable was mush.

If you imagine listening to the soundstage flat left to right - thats how it sounded with the Van damme. Clear vocal but no sepration of anything else - put in the Spatia and then it clears up all the presentation so you can hear each element clearly and the soundstage then has depth front to back as a result

the price difference is massive 3 metre pair of Van Damme terminated would be about £75 - 90 depending the plugs

The Spatia is about £200 for a 3 metre pait terminated so its twice the money - but to me more than twice the sound quality

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for responding 🙂

It is interesting to hear that we both have differing results. As I said, if you can pick a winner spend the money and be happy with your choice.

I also said, a good guage OFC speaker cable, not heavy is what you need 😉

The two cables you tested were really that different? I do have a question, if someone did a blind A/B/X test with you, you could choose the Spatia speaker cable every time? Many Recording studios in the UK use Van Damme cables!

That is impressive that both OFC copper cables behave so differently. One cable clearly must offer some resistance/ distorts the electron flow and removes analogue sinewave info and the other cable can improve the electron flow to improve the analogue sinewave somehow adding info reaching the speakers to provide clear presentation, allow you to hear each element clearly and improve soundstage depth.

Granted you have used more expensive cables. The cable difference ratio I tested was almost five times more expensive but no improvement in sound quality.

I am still going to invest my money on an external DAC. I would rather believe in a device that is processing a signal to the Pre-Amp/ Amp stage rather that a piece of wire carrying a signal from the Amp to offer a true improvement in audio quality.

Each to their own. 😉