Speakers, stands and laminate floors (concrete)

[britain4]

Hi, apologies if this has been covered before but if it has I can't find it.

I have a quite large set of vintage Mordaunt Short Pageant 2 speakers, and I've just picked up some QED Tristands for them. They look really cool! This is a low stand made from welded steel box section in a tripod shape as the name suggests. They have holes for spikes for both the floor and under the speaker.

As title says I have less-than-ideal laminate flooring, with concrete underneath, and had a plan for the stands:

Fill with sand as much as I can and spike the tops into the speakers and the bottom into an Argos granite chopping board. Sorbothane/similar between the chopping board and the floor.

Does that sound OK or does anyone have any better ideas? (Other than get a new floor - not an option at the moment)

 

[matt49]

I think it's worth thinking through what you're trying to achieve. Do you want to couple the speakers to the floor (via the stands) or do you want to isolate them?

It seems to me that the solution you're proposing will do a mixture of the two. It might work fine, though more by accident than design.
My hunch is that coupling the speakers will be worth trying, though different speakers react in quite different ways to this.
Also worth bearing in mind the weight of the speakers (9.6kg each). Heavy speakers will naturally tend to couple themselves to a base due to their weight.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with Matt, but IMO, to effectively couple with the floor (ie. sink the unwanted vibrations into it), the spikes would need to be dug into it. This works with carpet on concrete, where the spike push on through into the concrete.

What you fill the stands with (and by how much) also has an effect. Some fillers add mass (Atabites), while others have a damping effect as well, like sand.

Then there is the issue of whether you couple the speakers to the top of the stands, or isolate them from it.

IME. There is no easy answer, only experimentation.

The basics have to be got right ie. The stands must be rigid, level, totally stable* and the right height. The speakers must be fixed to the top of the Stands, so they can't slide about. After that, you can mess about with Spike Shoes, Granite Slabs, Blu-Tak, Sorbothane, Filling level/substance etc

* Just to add to the confusion, sometimes "floating" the speaker stand works as well...but generally, trying the stable route first, is best.

 

[andyjm]

OP, as pointed out above, you need to decide what you are trying to do. Your current solution seems to be neither fish nor fowl.

The general rule is you don't want the speakers wobbling about. Coupling the speakers to the stand (Blu-Tack), and coupling the speakers to a nice solid floor (spikes if through carpet, or flat on solid flat floor) is the answer. About the only time you might want to isolate the speakers from the floor is if you have a suspended wooden floor that acts like the skin of a drum.

If your floor is flat and solid (as yours is?), and the stands have a nice flat base, then just put the stands on the floor. No foam, granite or spikes required.

 

[jonathanRD]

As title says I have less-than-ideal laminate flooring, with concrete underneath, and had a plan for the stands:

Fill with sand as much as I can and spike the tops into the speakers and the bottom into an Argos granite chopping board. Sorbothane/similar between the chopping board and the floor.

I have a laminate floor over a concrete base. I have black slate slabs under both my floorstanders and the stands for my standmounts - both are spiked directly onto the slate slabs.

The slate slabs make moving the speakers much easier and avoids 'spiking' the laminate floor (I used to use coins but that was a nuisance). The slabs will slide if pushed hard.

 

[CnoEvil]

In case it is helpful, here are some articles:

http://www.zenn.com.sg/Speakerstands.htm

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Coupling_Decoupling.pdf

 

[britain4]

Hi

Thanks for all the replies chaps!

I did have a rationale behind what I wanted to do based on what I've read about laminate - I think looking back, that didn't specify whether the laminate was on a suspended floor or not. I will go for just coupling to the floor for now and see if I have any issues.
The bases and tops of the stands aren't flat but do effectively act a bit like a tripod so I should imagine that's a little better still. They ring like a bell though so may still fill them with sand. I I didn't even think about the weight of the speakers! They are hefty so that may just do it. Thanks for the links - I'll have a browse through them when I get home from work!

 

[britain4]

Hi

Thanks for all the replies chaps!

I did have a rationale behind what I wanted to do based on what I've read about laminate - I think looking back, that didn't specify whether the laminate was on a suspended floor or not. I will go for just coupling to the floor for now and see if I have any issues.
The bases and tops of the stands aren't flat but do effectively act a bit like a tripod so I should imagine that's a little better still. They ring like a bell though so may still fill them with sand. I I didn't even think about the weight of the speakers! They are hefty so that may just do it. Thanks for the links - I'll have a browse through them when I get home from work!

 

[CnoEvil]

One of the biggest issues with Laminate is its effect on the sound.....rugs are your friend here.

The sound of my system greatly improved when Laminate was replaced by Carpet...not that I'm suggesting you go this far.

 

[britain4]

Yes id love to get rid of the tired looking laminate and get something better sounding but not an option at the moment I'm afraid. There isn't going to be much floor space though as much of it will be taken up with 2 very large sofas, a rug and other furniture so I was hoping this might help matters.

 

[matt49]

Yes, if you have lots of soft furnishings that should mitigate the effects of the laminate flooring.

In your position, the first thing I'd try would be Blu-Tak: a few small bits between speaker and stand and stand and floor, having removed all the spikes, of course.

 

[CnoEvil]

In your position, the first thing I'd try would be Blu-Tak: a few small bits between speaker and stand and stand and floor, having removed all the spikes, of course.

I have the bottom of the stands Blu-Tak'd to some Granite Worktop Savers (which have felt pads as feet). This allows you to slide the speakers about to try different positions.

 

[SteveR750]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

This is what you need: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

 

[SteveR750]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

This is what you need: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

At what cost though.

This probably does as good a job laid underneath each slab, although the large blobs of blutak are probably make a reasonable effective isolation already

 

[CnoEvil]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

This is what you need: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

At what cost though.

This probably does as good a job laid underneath each slab, although the large blobs of blutak are probably make a reasonable effective isolation already

It almost certainly won't be anywhere near as good......what price do you put on sound perfection? *diablo*

The answer is to find a dealer who will lend you some....I believe that Matt uses them under his MLs, so can give insight.

 

[matt49]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

This is what you need: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

At what cost though.

This probably does as good a job laid underneath each slab, although the large blobs of blutak are probably make a reasonable effective isolation already

Pricey, but they do provide near complete isolation, whereas the Draper rubber mats won't.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've got a suspended woodne floor, as lounge is on second floor. I've got some granite worktop savers blutak'd to the floor, with the speakers on cones (not spikes) resting on the granite slabs.

This is what you need: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/

At what cost though.

This probably does as good a job laid underneath each slab, although the large blobs of blutak are probably make a reasonable effective isolation already

Pricey, but they do provide near complete isolation, whereas the Draper rubber mats won't.

The other crowd that make great products (also expensive), are Track Audio:

http://www.trackaudio.co.uk/brochure/files/Track-Audio-Brochure.pdf

Matt, can you describe what difference it made to the sound?

 

[matt49]

Matt, can you describe what difference it made to the sound?

I have my MLs on two Townshend isolation bars (each). The difference is quite striking: the top end and mid-range become clearer and more "relaxed" with the bars in place.

My explanation is that (without the bars) the signal from the MLs' woofers was being picked up and amplified by the suspended wooden floor and transmitted back to the speakers, causing the panels to vibrate slightly.

 

[CnoEvil]

Matt, can you describe what difference it made to the sound?

I have my MLs on two Townshend isolation bars (each). The difference is quite striking: the top end and mid-range become clearer and more "relaxed" with the bars in place.

My explanation is that (without the bars) the signal from the MLs' woofers was being picked up and amplified by the suspended wooden floor and transmitted back to the speakers, causing the panels to vibrate slightly.

Interesting - Thank you.

I'm surprised there wasn't a big difference to the quality of the bass....ie. cleaning it up, so it's deeper, tighter and punchier, thus allowing it to play tunes with greater definition.

 

[Jonathan Cox]

I've also got laminate directly on solid concrete currently have stands on spikes into cheap felt pads to protect floor. Thing is this makes it difficult to move speakers easily which I would like to do as speakers only 6 inches from wall. Wondering if the granite saver idea would affect negatively my sound as my floor is not quite level. Question is would the pads on bottom of granite be sufficient to prevent any wobble while still allowing me move speakers quite easily? (Sorry to butt in BTW).

 

[CnoEvil]

I've also got laminate directly on solid concrete currently have stands on spikes into cheap felt pads to protect floor. Thing is this makes it difficult to move speakers easily which I would like to do as speakers only 6 inches from wall. Wondering if the granite saver idea would affect negatively my sound as my floor is not quite level. Question is would the pads on bottom of granite be sufficient to prevent any wobble while still allowing me move speakers quite easily? (Sorry to butt in BTW).

If you get them from the likes of Argos, you can return them if not suitable.

You could put the Granite slab on some carpet underlay, for example.

 

[matt49]

Matt, can you describe what difference it made to the sound?

I have my MLs on two Townshend isolation bars (each). The difference is quite striking: the top end and mid-range become clearer and more "relaxed" with the bars in place.

My explanation is that (without the bars) the signal from the MLs' woofers was being picked up and amplified by the suspended wooden floor and transmitted back to the speakers, causing the panels to vibrate slightly.

Interesting - Thank you.

I'm surprised there wasn't a big difference to the quality of the bass....ie. cleaning it up, so it's deeper, tighter and punchier, thus allowing it to play tunes with greater definition.

If my theory's correct and if the reverb from the suspended floor is causing the whole speaker to vibrate, you'd expect the vibration to be more noticeable in the mids and HF because the ear/brain's more sensitive in that region. Maybe.

 

[CnoEvil]

If my theory's correct and if the reverb from the suspended floor is causing the whole speaker to vibrate, you'd expect the vibration to be more noticeable in the mids and HF because the ear/brain's more sensitive in that region. Maybe.

Andyjm's analogy of a suspended wooden floor acting like the skin of a drum is good....the whole floor can play along, smearing the bass lines.

 

[matt49]

If my theory's correct and if the reverb from the suspended floor is causing the whole speaker to vibrate, you'd expect the vibration to be more noticeable in the mids and HF because the ear/brain's more sensitive in that region. Maybe.

Andyjm's analogy of a suspended wooden floor acting like the skin of a drum is good....the whole floor can play along, smearing the bass lines.

Bear in mind also that this is a "non-standard" format of speaker we're talking about, which (under optimal circumstances) has considerably better mid-range and HF accuracy than cone speakers. Vibrations to the delicate panel are likely to cause nasty smearing. The woofer on the other hand is a standard 12" aluminium cone and is well anchored.

The Townshend bars were suggested to me by people on the ML owners forum who've had similar results.

Trying to put it kindly, I think you're speculating on a set of circumstances you're not fully familiar with.