Source...which direction to go?

[CnoEvil]

I see I'm not the only one around here who feels fishy about DS modulation. when I read about how it works I thought about "creative accounting" all the time. just for the sake of gaining lower noise floor you get extra bits of resolution out of nowhere.

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)?

I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion.

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

 

[acalex]

I see I'm not the only one around here who feels fishy about DS modulation. when I read about how it works I thought about "creative accounting" all the time. just for the sake of gaining lower noise floor you get extra bits of resolution out of nowhere.

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)? I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion. BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

Hopefully in April I will start my source journey and might be able to understand this one better. I will for sure try the Akurate and Klimax against each other to understand why the Klimax costs so much more than the Akurate. Interesting times...

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Oldric, have you ever heard one, and if so which one (and with what)? I'm not asking in order to cause trouble, but because I respect your opinion.

he he . no sweat. I'd never took your question as an offence. did I hear one? no. but I like researching and finding out how things work. combining technical knowledge and peoples' assessments can be a very useful tool helping to go in the right direction. so far it worked for me.

however, I'd definitely would like to hear one. there's a reason why many people consider ancient Philips TDA1541 DAC chips superior to modern ones. and they are ladder type, non oversampling ones. anyway, DS convertion type DACs have one big advantage over other types; outstanding measured performance and low cost to boot too. but like I said before - creative accounting.

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

I think it's not. at least that's what I think if it's going to be similar to Pathos's CDPs. they are based around some DS DAC chip. I think it'll definitely be a DS DAC since it's supposed to be handling 31 bit and 384 kHz sampling freq.

personally, I think it's quite peculiar that Pathos is using DS DAC chips knowing how they feel about negative feedback. DS conversion makes use of negative feedback. albeit in digital domain.

 

[CnoEvil]

he he . no sweat. I'd never took your question as an offence. did I hear one? no. but I like researching and finding out how things work. combining technical knowledge and peoples' assessments can be a very useful tool helping to go in the right direction. so far it worked for me.

however, I'd definitely would like to hear one. there's a reason why many people consider ancient Philips TDA1541 DAC chips superior to modern ones. and they are ladder type, non oversampling ones. anyway, DS convertion type DACs have one big advantage over other types; outstanding measured performance and low cost to boot too. but like I said before - creative accounting.

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456

and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

thanks for the tip 🙂

 

[paradiziac]

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

So basically Linn have a little computer in front of the DAC chip with their own custom filters tuned by their golden ears that (understandably) do a better upsampling job than those built into the WM8741 DAC chip that I believe is used in the Linn range.

Or another approach is, as one poster in the second thread suggested, upsample first if your upsampling algorithm is good enough. That makes it quite easy to use something like a PC/Mac mini and feed a suitable (filterless) DAC.

Interesting times...

 

[paradiziac]

BTW. Do you know if the new Pathos InTransfer is a NOS Dac, as I didn't think it was.

I think it's not. at least that's what I think if it's going to be similar to Pathos's CDPs. they are based around some DS DAC chip. I think it'll definitely be a DS DAC since it's supposed to be handling 31 bit and 384 kHz sampling freq.

Good Q. Dunno about the new one, but some of the older Pathos players used Burr Brown PCM 63P -- seems to be a bit of a hybrid between the multibit/1-bit (DS) DACs.

Also, a multibit DAC can be (and was/is often) used with oversampling and can be modified to accept higher sampling frequencies.

I guess at the end of the day it's not as simple as "multibit is better than DS". But still I've found it useful knowledge. It led me to swap my "modern" DS DAC for an older TDA based one (couldn't afford the Zanden!) and I much prefer the sound.

There's so much hype around new DACs that people seem to automatically assume that a 32 bit DAC chip that upsamples to 2 million kHz is automatically better, whereas in reality it has been the change in chip manufacturing to easy/cheap to manufacture DAC chips with on-chip functions that has created the need for all these upsampling/filtering/digital reconstruction algorithms.

 

[CnoEvil]

In case its of any interest, here is a little more insight: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15456 and http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=15686

So basically Linn have a little computer in front of the DAC chip with their own custom filters tuned by their golden ears that (understandably) do a better upsampling job than those built into the WM8741 DAC chip that I believe is used in the Linn range.

Or another approach is, as one poster in the second thread suggested, upsample first if your upsampling algorithm is good enough. That makes it quite easy to use something like a PC/Mac mini and feed a suitable (filterless) DAC.

Interesting times...

I don't fully understand what Linn do with their DS, but for my taste, they are the ones to beat at each price bracket.....I even prefer their new Klimax DS to some very highend DCS gear, though I admit at that level, it's very subjective.

I tried an Audio Note Dac (2.1x Signature), which sounds glorius in an AN system, but it didn't sound as good as my Majik (through my system).....I think it might be a lot better through a Jadis + SF, as (surprisingly) it was a bit too forward (though highly detailed).

I was told the Black Gate Capacitors take an age to sound right (2/3 months), but I couldn't hold onto it long enough to find out (2 weeks continuous play made little difference)....it also couldn't handle 24/192, at which resolution I have a few albums.

In my case, I'm not interested in the Akurate, as the Majik is so talented; and a good step up from the Sneaky, due in no small part to the Dynamik (switch mode) power supply.

If I ever change, it will be for a Klimax DS (out of the question for the foreseeable), or something from Pathos....I wish they would come up with a Streamer, rather than their all in one solution (Musiteca), which I don't need. Their Dac will need a good transport, which will leave that too expensive.

 

[BenLaw]

If you are looking at DACs up to £5k then the Weiss DAC202 is worth very serious consideration. Check the stereophile review, the measurements are amazing: http://www.stereophile.com/content/weiss-dac202-firewire-da-converter-measurements

 

[CnoEvil]

If you are looking at DACs up to £5k then the Weiss DAC202 is worth very serious consideration. Check the stereophile review, the measurements are amazing: http://www.stereophile.com/content/weiss-dac202-firewire-da-converter-measurements

Ben, that was an interesting read.

It looks as if the Weiss is smooth and musical but at the expense of a little excitement, dynamics and bass extention....so it could be down to a matching thing ie. Good with the AMS 35i, but not so good with the Jadis (very theoretical, I know).

The other thing I found interesting, was the comment on the DCS, which is exactly why I preferred the Klimax DS vs their higher end stuff.

The comments on the Bel Canto Dac also ring true to me.....a much overlooked alternative.

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry, double post.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

or something from Pathos....I wish they would come up with a Streamer, rather than their all in one solution (Musiteca), which I don't need.

CNO. I don't know what you mean by an "all-in-one solution" but to my knowledge Musiteca is not an all-in-one in the meaning of, for instance, Marantz MCR-603 or Naim Uniti. it'll be more a HDD player rather than a streamer but still, it'll be a digital files player. there will be no added amplification nor volume control (at least no analog volume ctrl). there will be a CD drive added for the sake of copying CDs onto the drive. if you're interested here's a link to Stereophile's CES coverage on Musiteca. apparently there are still some issues, probably with the soft, to be sorted.

and as a bonus the In Transfer if you haven't had a chance to see it yet. also from Stereophile's CES coverage.

(don't you just love the new, less restrictive towards linking to external sites "house rules"? :clap: )

 

[CnoEvil]

CNO. I don't know what you mean by an "all-in-one solution" but to my knowledge Musiteca is not an all-in-one in the meaning of, for instance, Marantz MCR-603 or Naim Uniti. it'll be more a HDD player rather than a streamer but still, it'll be a digital files player. there will be no added amplification nor volume control (at least no analog volume ctrl). there will be a CD drive added for the sake of copying CDs onto the drive. if you're interested here's a link to Stereophile's CES coverage on Musiteca. apparently there are still some issues, probably with the soft, to be sorted.

and as a bonus the In Transfer if you haven't had a chance to see it yet. also from Stereophile's CES coverage.

(don't you just love the new, less restrictive towards linking to external sites "house rules"? :clap:

Sorry about the loose description....what I mean, is that it has an integrated screen and storage, whereas I just want a box which connects to my NAS, play music and be controlled with a handy thingy.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Good Q. Dunno about the new one, but some of the older Pathos players used Burr Brown PCM 63P -- seems to be a bit of a hybrid between the multibit/1-bit (DS) DACs.

I've found it! I knew I saw somewhere what DAC is there in the Endorphine and it's Crystal Semiconductors CS4396.

I've got Digit CDP and can't really fault it in any way. it's said to be a copy of the Endorphine in major part. I really love it. but I also can't help thinking how it would sound if you combined DAC from Metrum Acoustics Octave (non oversampling and filterless) with Pathos's analog output stage... :? here you can find how square wave and impulse response look like from oversampling and NOS Metrum DAC.

 

[acalex]

Good Q. Dunno about the new one, but some of the older Pathos players used Burr Brown PCM 63P -- seems to be a bit of a hybrid between the multibit/1-bit (DS) DACs.

I've found it! I knew I saw somewhere what DAC is there in the Endorphine and it's Crystal Semiconductors CS4396.

I've got Digit CDP and can't really fault it in any way. it's said to be a copy of the Endorphine in major part. I really love it. but I also can't help thinking how it would sound if you combined DAC from Metrum Acoustics Octave (non oversampling and filterless) with Pathos's analog output stage... :? here you can find how square wave and impulse response look like from oversampling and NOS Metrum DAC.

Was very interested in trying the NOS Metrum DAC as itàs not far from where I live. Lost enthusiasm and interest when they said they won't have any return policy as they thing the DAC is underpriced compared to its quakity that they don't take any back. Found it not very serious aptitude and lost interest...

 

[tino]

Was very interested in trying the NOS Metrum DAC as itàs not far from where I live. Lost enthusiasm and interest when they said they won't have any return policy as they thing the DAC is underpriced compared to its quakity that they don't take any back. Found it not very serious aptitude and lost interest...

Shame their attitude was off-putting ... but maybe you might want to give them another try ... Leggete qui .. Clicky

 

[paradiziac]

Funnily enough, I also had a similar personal experience to Acalex and reached the same conclusion. I also had an inkling it might not be to my taste.

I might add there's now supposedly a UK distributor who offers a 30 day trial, so no excuses for asking Acalex to be the guinea pig!

 

[paradiziac]

I've found it! I knew I saw somewhere what DAC is there in the Endorphine and it's Crystal Semiconductors CS4396.

That's a decent DAC chip, it would appear to be a bit of a mish-mash of multibit+DS. Interesting to note that these older Cirrus chips were developed by some of the Phillips engineers who worked on the classic TDA series.

http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/the_evolution_of_dac_the_digital_filter/#cs4397

 

[acalex]

Was very interested in trying the NOS Metrum DAC as itàs not far from where I live. Lost enthusiasm and interest when they said they won't have any return policy as they thing the DAC is underpriced compared to its quakity that they don't take any back. Found it not very serious aptitude and lost interest...

Shame their attitude was off-putting ... but maybe you might want to give them another try ... Leggete qui .. Clicky

Thanks for the link but as I said, lost interest as for me all this stuff is a matter of trust as well towards the producer other than the seller. If you really think your product is so underpriced compared to performance, than you should be even more willing to take it back if it doesn't suit your taste, right?

 

[paradiziac]

Thanks for the link but as I said, lost interest as for me all this stuff is a matter of trust as well towards the producer other than the seller. If you really think your product is so underpriced compared to performance, than you should be even more willing to take it back if it doesn't suit your taste, right?

Not a very professional review, but one thing that comes over quite strongly about the Metrum from this an other comments/reviews is that it's nothing special until you feed it upsampled (or hi-res) material (but not 192 as it doesn't support it!).

So add in the cost of a hi-end USB converter or upsampling CD transport and it's not really a "bargain".

It also seems to have a certain sound (or lack of "sound") that, IMHO, means that you have to listen first.

 

[acalex]

Thanks for the link but as I said, lost interest as for me all this stuff is a matter of trust as well towards the producer other than the seller. If you really think your product is so underpriced compared to performance, than you should be even more willing to take it back if it doesn't suit your taste, right?

Not a very professional review, but one thing that comes over quite strongly about the Metrum from this an other comments/reviews is that it's nothing special until you feed it upsampled (or hi-res) material (but not 192 as it doesn't support it!).

So add in the cost of a hi-end USB converter or upsampling CD transport and it's not really a "bargain".

It also seems to have a certain sound (or lack of "sound") that, IMHO, means that you have to listen first.

Agree, plus the fact the producer itself didn't give me a good impression...the all way to handle contact with client was quite rude if I have to say it all

 

[BenLaw]

If you are looking at DACs up to £5k then the Weiss DAC202 is worth very serious consideration. Check the stereophile review, the measurements are amazing: http://www.stereophile.com/content/weiss-dac202-firewire-da-converter-measurements

Ben, that was an interesting read. It looks as if the Weiss is smooth and musical but at the expense of a little excitement, dynamics and bass extention....so it could be down to a matching thing ie. Good with the AMS 35i, but not so good with the Jadis (very theoretical, I know). The other thing I found interesting, was the comment on the DCS, which is exactly why I preferred the Klimax DS vs their higher end stuff. The comments on the Bel Canto Dac also ring true to me.....a much overlooked alternative.

Sounds about right and I agree bel canto would be worth consideration, I hear very good things about it.

What I would really like is for Acalex to try the Bladelius Embla and tell us what it sounds like: http://www.bladelius.com/products/bladelius/media-players/embla.html 🙂

 

[BenLaw]

Don't know why that won't work as a hyperlink but hopefully will work as cut and paste.

 

[acalex]

Don't know why that won't work as a hyperlink but hopefully will work as cut and paste.

It really looks stunning...not sure will be easy to find here though!

 

[CnoEvil]

Don't know why that won't work as a hyperlink but hopefully will work as cut and paste.

It really looks stunning...not sure will be easy to find here though!

I have heard it briefly here (Room CR1 Kronos AV):
http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/12/11/2010/the-northern-ireland-audio-show-2010-part-one/

I think it was through VTL amps and Triangle Magellan speakers. It was early on during the first day, which may have accounted for rather bright forward sound, or it may have been the Triangles, which I don't like.

Nb The system at the other end of the room was much more to my taste (of course :shifty: ), and it consisted of a DCS Debussy Dac + AMS35i + Focal Scala + Atlas Asimi cables and Balanced Mains Transformer.