Source...which direction to go?

acalex

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Hello beautiful people,

I have almost chosen my amp to start building my dream system...speakers are almost decided (let's say 70%)...now it's time to understand pro and cons of different sources. Hopefully I will get some good advices here as usual.

I actually have a NAS and a Squeezebox Touch and I find it quite an handy solution. So streaming is definitely staying. What I also found out is that I love the TT...so for sure one is coming in the next 2/3 months. Was thinking something like Clearaudio Performance maybe with MC catridge.

The difficult choice is the streaming...will I go for an all-in one solution (Linn Akurate DS or second hand Klimax DS) or maybe better a good NOS DAC (like pathos or AN or Jadis) and a "medium" streamer? At this regard...how do you think the sound would compare between the 2 solutions?

Must say that hi-fi will be for music only...so no needs to connect TV. I might keep a cheap DAC (still have the rDAC) to connect pc just in case. Not a big deal anyway as SQ in this case won't be important if I am playing from PC.

If I would keep a SB Touch and add let's say a Chord DAC or a Jadis DAC, would ie be comparable to the Akurate DS for example in terms of sound quality? Or the SBT will be the weakest link anyway?

The only thing that would make me think about wanting a DAC is the opportunity to connect a "cheap" cd player purely as backup, to try CDs when somebody comes but I don't want to rip them on the NAS. So here SQ won't be my first concern but I would have something good anyway (was thinking about an Audiolab or Marantz or Rega Apollo).

Another plus for separate solution is that with DAC + reader I will have more flexibility to update if something more advanced will come...

Which direction would you take? Any suggestion?

Thanks as usual
 

Helmut80

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I am sure Cno will disagree, but IMO get a Mac mini/pc of your choice connect it straight to DAC. Spend all the money saved on 'audiophile streamer' on the DAC.
 

spockfish

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I'll agree. Take the SBT and a very good DAC and imho you have a very capable streaming solution with a very, very good SQ. And this may sound like a shock... with respect to usability the SBT beats every DLNA-based streamer hands down.

So the question is... how much are you willing to spend on SQ that you get with the high end streamer?
 

CnoEvil

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My (personal) views are as follows:

- There are those on the Linn forum who believe that a Klimax DS matches a "maxed out" LP12...you need to hear how good these really are with your chosen amp/speakers.

- I'm not up with current TT prices, but if it's to be your main source, you probably should spend about £3k - 4K. Listen to TTs at various price points and see where your sweet spot is.

- IMO All in one solutions are better sorted and sound better....though you need to hear this for yourself. - I heard the Chord Dac 64 and found it too aggressive and forward (I think the Jadis/Pathos would suit you better) .

- Pathos/Jardis Dac vs Linn DS is a much harder one to call, and will come down to personal taste and synergy with the amp you choose.

- I think that if the TT is going to be the main source, you are better keeping your Arcam Dac and putting the money to the TT; conversely, if you go for a very expensive Dac/Streamer, it would be instead of a TT, or at the most, a fairly cheap one.

- IMO. The transport that is connected to a Dac has a big effect.

I know you won't take any of this "as read", and will check it out for yourself.

:cheers:

Cno
 

tino

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Would something like a Linn Majik DSM be OK for you SQ-wise? This has digital inputs to upsample an external digital source e.g. your occasional CD. It is also a high quality streamer which meets your network player needs. It also has an internal pre-amp + amp, so you can connect the pre-amp to your new expesnive fancy amp for some serious listening. And on those other days when you are not having a serious listening session e.g parties or just listening to the radio you can use the internal amp of the Majik DSM and not wait 1/2 hour for your valve / class-A amp to loosen up - sometimes you just want to switch on and go (plus you will save on replacement valves / electricity bills).
 

paradiziac

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My advice would be to find the DAC you like the best with your amp and speakers, and then build the rest of the digital sources around that (streamer/CD transport/PC). If the best DAC is also a one box solution, so be it.

If you like the valve/vinyl sound, IMHO you HAVE to listen to a multibit (ladder type, often NOS) DAC on your proposed system before you decide! It's a more natural and fluid sound than upsampling/delta sigma DACs and at the higher end, offers as much detail as well.

Some DACs are more transport sensitive than others, or have a preferred input (e.g. USB/Firewire or optical/co-ax). So in answer to your question about whether a cheaper streamer will be good enough, it depends on which DAC you eventually choose.

I think it's also worth looking at good CD players with SDPIF input that you can also use directly with the SBT or PC+USB converter.

Have fun! And leave some budget for your vinyl, the thing that puts me off owing a turntable is £25 a pop for the vinyl v £10 a month to stream almost anything you can imagine.
 

acalex

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Helmut80 said:
I am sure Cno will disagree, but IMO get a Mac mini/pc of your choice connect it straight to DAC. Spend all the money saved on 'audiophile streamer' on the DAC.

Sp you are for the stramer + DAC solution ;)! Nha, don't want any pc...I really like being able to stream from my NAS. What do you mean with audiophile streamer?
 

acalex

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spockfish said:
I'll agree. Take the SBT and a very good DAC and imho you have a very capable streaming solution with a very, very good SQ. And this may sound like a shock... with respect to usability the SBT beats every DLNA-based streamer hands down.

So the question is... how much are you willing to spend on SQ that you get with the high end streamer?

That's not really the big deal as a Jadis/Pathos DAC will cost you anyway around 4k eur...so money wise it's more or less the same as a n high-end streamer...
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
My (personal) views are as follows: - There are those on the Linn forum who believe that a Klimax DS matches a "maxed out" LP12...you need to hear how good these really are with your chosen amp/speakers. - I'm not up with current TT prices, but if it's to be your main source, you probably should spend about £3k - 4K. Listen to TTs at various price points and see where your sweet spot is. - IMO All in one solutions are better sorted and sound better....though you need to hear this for yourself. - I heard the Chord Dac 64 and found it too aggressive and forward (I think the Jadis/Pathos would suit you better) . - Pathos/Jardis Dac vs Linn DS is a much harder one to call, and will come down to personal taste and synergy with the amp you choose. - I think that if the TT is going to be the main source, you are better keeping your Arcam Dac and putting the money to the TT; conversely, if you go for a very expensive Dac/Streamer, it would be instead of a TT, or at the most, a fairly cheap one. - IMO. The transport that is connected to a Dac has a big effect. I know you won't take any of this "as read", and will check it out for yourself. :cheers: Cno

Always like to read your thoughts ;)

Ok...for now vinyl will be my 2nd source. I mean...is the one I would enjoy more (so far) but is just for some serious listening, when I can sit and enjoy music. Unfortunately this doesn't happen every day. As it is now, my main source will be the straming part.

Anyway what I planned to spend on TT is around your budget if considering TT + valve phono stage

I want to heard this head to head...I know a couple of shops having the Akurate and Klimax here in Bx...not sure how easy would be to compare with an high end DAC.

I am also (for now) a bit more towards the all-in-one streaming solution as I heard by a few people now that money wise will always be better than reader + DAC. Maybe I feel still a bit uncomfortable spending so much money on a single electronic box?!?

Arcam DAC is probably staying...as I said I might use it to connect notebooks/pc to the main system. One option would be to change the rDAC with a DAC including headphone amp (MDAC?!?)

I also do not feel comfortable in connecting a 150eur reader to a 4k eur DAC...it looks quite as an obvious limit...

Interesting times ahead as soon as I sort the amp out :cheers:
 

acalex

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tino said:
Would something like a Linn Majik DSM be OK for you SQ-wise? This has digital inputs to upsample an external digital source e.g. your occasional CD. It is also a high quality streamer which meets your network player needs. It also has an internal pre-amp + amp, so you can connect the pre-amp to your new expesnive fancy amp for some serious listening. And on those other days when you are not having a serious listening session e.g parties or just listening to the radio you can use the internal amp of the Majik DSM and not wait 1/2 hour for your valve / class-A amp to loosen up - sometimes you just want to switch on and go (plus you will save on replacement valves / electricity bills).

First of all, what's the difference between the DS and the DSM? Is just the preamp+amp?

Your idea of having a "backup" system I could use for parties for example is not too bad. Even if I am not partying so often, is maybe something to take into account! How much is the Majik DSM?

I heard the Majik DS and I liked...but again I haven't heard the Akurate and the Klimax so far ;). But worth some serious consideration indeed...
 

acalex

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paradiziac said:
My advice would be to find the DAC you like the best with your amp and speakers, and then build the rest of the digital sources around that (streamer/CD transport/PC). If the best DAC is also a one box solution, so be it.

If you like the valve/vinyl sound, IMHO you HAVE to listen to a multibit (ladder type, often NOS) DAC on your proposed system before you decide! It's a more natural and fluid sound than upsampling/delta sigma DACs and at the higher end, offers as much detail as well.

Some DACs are more transport sensitive than others, or have a preferred input (e.g. USB/Firewire or optical/co-ax). So in answer to your question about whether a cheaper streamer will be good enough, it depends on which DAC you eventually choose.

I think it's also worth looking at good CD players with SDPIF input that you can also use directly with the SBT or PC+USB converter.

Have fun! And leave some budget for your vinyl, the thing that puts me off owing a turntable is £25 a pop for the vinyl v £10 a month to stream almost anything you can imagine.

Yes, for now the DACs I have on my list are all NOS (Jadis, Pathos and AudioNote) as I have the suspect that's the sound I prefer. Definitely want to leave some budget for vinyl...I would go for a lot of 2nd hand vinyls to start..and I have a lot of places here where you can find great deals.

I might eventually connect a backup cd-player to an high end streamer like the Akurate DS?
 

tino

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The Majik DSM is £2600 GBP.

Spec is:

1 x ethernet for network streaming

2 x coaxial digital inputs

3 x Toslink optical inputs

4 x analogue inputs including phono

1 x pre-out

1 x line out

100W amp + speaker connections

There is a very good review in another magazine this month which I'm probably not allowed to mention ... their sum up was "Like: A hugely involving listen ... Dislike: Not a rythmically assertive as it could be ... Conclusion: A highly attractive proposition if you are looking for an all in one streaming solution".

You could sell your rDAC and buy an M2Tech hiFace USB -> SPDIF converter if you needed to connect your computer.

So you could end up with:

Indulgent Listening

Clearaudio TT -> Jadis (does it have a phono stage?)

Everyday / Serious Listening

Majik DSM (pre or line out) -> Jadis

Everyday Listening / Parties / Radio

Majik DSM on its own
 

CnoEvil

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tino said:
The Majik DSM is £2600 GBP.

There is a very good review in another magazine this month which I'm probably not allowed to mention ... their sum up was "Like: A hugely involving listen ... Dislike: Not a rythmically assertive as it could be ... Conclusion: A highly attractive proposition if you are looking for an all in one streaming solution".

I think Linn use a type of Class D amp, which (imo) compared to Class A, sound a little cold and uninvolving......though worth a listen to see if you agree.
 

tino

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CnoEvil said:
tino said:
The Majik DSM is £2600 GBP.

There is a very good review in another magazine this month which I'm probably not allowed to mention ... their sum up was "Like: A hugely involving listen ... Dislike: Not a rythmically assertive as it could be ... Conclusion: A highly attractive proposition if you are looking for an all in one streaming solution".

I think Linn use a type of Class D amp, which (imo) compared to Class A, sound a little cold and uninvolving......though worth a listen to see if you agree.

You're probably right as always :) ... but 50% of the time it may not be important (everyday listening), and for the other 50% Acalex can warm up the Jadis (or AMS35i if he has a change of mind! :silenced: ) and use the DSM as source via line/pre outs.
 

fatman

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expecting plenty more streaming & DAC solutions to hit the market over the coming months.....

good luck with your upgrades.
 

acalex

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oldric_naubhoff said:
I think the main question you should ask yourself in this situation is whether you prefer more boxes on display or less. and start from there.

Actually that was never a problem. I have quite a lot of space and my gf didn't complain about having more boxes around...so not an issue there.
 

acalex

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fatman said:
expecting plenty more streaming & DAC solutions to hit the market over the coming months.....

good luck with your upgrades.

I know, that's what really scares me off to invest a lot of minute on a single electronic box! But again, that's a relatively young market compared to amp and speakers...that's why it might take more time to understand

For now I head one dealer telling me that it doesn't matter what, but at the same price level a all-in-one solution (he was talking about Linn products) will always sound better than a good transport + DAC. On the other hand I like the more flexibility I could have with external DAC...then I just need to decide, do I really need this flexibility if using the main system only for music? Probably not...
 

fatman

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who knows what devices we'll see in the future........

i'd lean towards maxing the spend on a high end DAC to complement the amp you decide on and the add the streamer separately. you are more likely to want to change (or add) source down the line as i am sure we'll see plenty new concepts.

if you buy into 'a digital source is a digital source' then it is the DAC you like the sound of that is the key with your amp. what gives you the digital source is the future for upgrades once you have your 'dream system' sound.

just my opinion. is always easier to spend other people's money.....
 

acalex

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fatman said:
who knows what devices we'll see in the future........

i'd lean towards maxing the spend on a high end DAC to complement the amp you decide on and the add the streamer separately. you are more likely to want to change (or add) source down the line as i am sure we'll see plenty new concepts.

if you buy into 'a digital source is a digital source' then it is the DAC you like the sound of that is the key with your amp. what gives you the digital source is the future for upgrades once you have your 'dream system' sound.

just my opinion. is always easier to spend other people's money.....

That was exactly my idea at the beginning. Finding the perfect high-end DAC to get the perfect sound with my amp and then upgrading the source if needed.

This approach is anyway quite scary as I see myself at a certain moment trying a more expensive source to see if the sound improves...and then ending up with an expensive reader and expensive DAC. Plus I heard so much about this Klimax DS and Akurate DS having a kind of "vinyl sound"...but not tried yet.

I really like all your insights as I could see things under a different perspectives. I am going anyway to try everything by myself once the amp is sorted out...
 

nads

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fatman said:
who knows what devices we'll see in the future........

i'd lean towards maxing the spend on a high end DAC to complement the amp you decide on and the add the streamer separately. you are more likely to want to change (or add) source down the line as i am sure we'll see plenty new concepts.

if you buy into 'a digital source is a digital source' then it is the DAC you like the sound of that is the key with your amp. what gives you the digital source is the future for upgrades once you have your 'dream system' sound.

just my opinion. is always easier to spend other people's money.....

Agreed.

Keep the Touch (dont think you will find a better user interface and saves having to work out a new one) and spend on a DAC.
 

acalex

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nads said:
Agreed.

Keep the Touch (dont think you will find a better user interface and saves having to work out a new one) and spend on a DAC.

This is what I want to try sorting out...

1) will the SBT be up to the job?

2) Will the sound improve drastically IF i swap the SBT with a more expensive stremer (say for example the Linn Sneaky or the Majik DS)?

3)...having an high-end DAC (let's say Jadis, 4k eur) and a Sneaky DS (1k) I will end up same price as a second hand Klimax DS or a new Akurate. Will this combo be better than the Linn all-in-one solution?

4)Will I need, in the future, to upgrade my digital source if new technology comes out?

Once I will be able to responde to all the above questions, I will have my final answer :cheers:
 

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