Sound quality: Streamer with external DAC

[David B]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, and after looking at quite a few existing posts, I couldn't find an answer to my question.

I am considering buying a new streamer, for usability issue with my existing one (such as the possibility to use Plex Amp with the Wiim).

I use a Node 2i with an external RME DAC to play exclusively a FLAC library from a local server.

I am very happy with my overall sound, and my question is: in my context, given that the digital to analogue conversion is handled by the external DAC, are there any noticeable differences, between a Wiim pro or ultra at a reasonable price, or a more pricy device such as the Eversolo DMP-A6 or the Cambridge Audio CXN (V2) which are both famous for their quality of sound, at a higher price point.

My understanding would be that the sound quality and sound stage would come purely from the DAC part of those streamers, and the streaming part being simply the digital reading of a numeric file, I would not expect noticeable difference that would justify investing 1000 euros for a Cambridge, instead of 400 for a Wiim ultra.

I am not considering any other features like screen size, inputs and outputs, app, to value one device or another, as I am well-informed on those differences already.

Does anyone have any direct experience comparing a Wiim and a Cambridge for example, using the same external DAC?

Thank you very much for reading!

 

[Kenneth Fernandes]

the streaming part being simply the digital reading of a numeric file,

>24-Bit 96KHz, AIFF audio format sounds exceptionally great too.

 

[Witterings]

Does anyone have any direct experience comparing a Wiim and a Cambridge for example, using the same external DAC?

I can't directly compare these 2 but I'm now a big believer it mainly comes down to the DAC. I have been extensively testing WiiM's vs Bluesound Nano vs a Chord Qutest DAC I've just bought for the last 5 days.

With a WiiM Pro using my Arcam SA30's DAC and a WiiM Pro Plus using it directly to analogue both sound very similar, the Nano using it's DAC is a step up from there but a WiiM into the Chord Qutest is a step up again.

The main difference is the soundstage, the WiiM both the Pro with my amp's DAC and the Pro Plus it's comparatively narrow and they have some distortion compared to the others and a slight "edge" and everything feels compressed together.
The Nano has a wider soundstage and not so much of an edge and the Chord the widest but also it seperates out every note meaning everything has greater clarity and is especially noticeable with the vocals.

In essence if you're going to continue using your RME DAC, I don't think there'll be a difference and I'd use whichever has the interface you most like.
I've the Nano on trial but beacuse I use Alexa for voice commands and Amazon Music the WiiM integrates with it much better so will take the Nano back.

The only other thing I've seen writen but haven't tried is if you use USB out from your streamer into your DAC it'll use the DAC's clock which may be better than the streamers so may possibly give some sound advantage but others argue the difference wouldn't be something the human ear can detect.

 

[David B]

I can't directly compare these 2 but I'm now a big believer it mainly comes down to the DAC. I have been extensively testing WiiM's vs Bluesound Nano vs a Chord Qutest DAC I've just bought for the last 5 days.

With a WiiM Pro using my Arcam SA30's DAC and a WiiM Pro Plus using it directly to analogue both sound very similar, the Nano using it's DAC is a step up from there but a WiiM into the Chord Qutest is a step up again.

The main difference is the soundstage, the WiiM both the Pro with my amp's DAC and the Pro Plus it's comparatively narrow and they have some distortion compared to the others and a slight "edge" and everything feels compressed together.
The Nano has a wider soundstage and not so much of an edge and the Chord the widest but also it seperates out every note meaning everything has greater clarity and is especially noticeable with the vocals.

In essence if you're going to continue using your RME DAC, I don't think there'll be a difference and I'd use whichever has the interface you most like.
I've the Nano on trial but beacuse I use Alexa for voice commands and Amazon Music the WiiM integrates with it much better so will take the Nano back.

The only other thing I've seen writen but haven't tried is if you use USB out from your streamer into your DAC it'll use the DAC's clock which may be better than the streamers so may possibly give some sound advantage but others argue the difference wouldn't be something the human ear can detect.

Great, thank you so much for sharing your experience!
For me, using the RME instead of the internal Node DAC was a huge step up, particularly in terms of wider sound stage, and clarity.
This is the main reason why I am making my previous assumptions.
Are you happy with the WiiM app too? I have to say that I am not a big fan of the Node app, even though it does the job, and a lot of people seem to say that it is the better option out there, which would be one more reason for me to look for a solution that allows me tu benefit from Plex Amp, instead of the native app.

Thanks again!

 

[Witterings]

Great, thank you so much for sharing your experience!
For me, using the RME instead of the internal Node DAC was a huge step up, particularly in terms of wider sound stage, and clarity.
This is the main reason why I am making my previous assumptions.
Are you happy with the WiiM app too? I have to say that I am not a big fan of the Node app, even though it does the job, and a lot of people seem to say that it is the better option out there, which would be one more reason for me to look for a solution that allows me tu benefit from Plex Amp, instead of the native app.

Thanks again!

Personally I'm not a fan of the BluOs or WiiM's App in comparison to using a streaming service providers App like Amazon Music or Tidal or Qobuz and being able to "cast" from your phone / tablet but I'm not playing many local files. Amazon Music App will cast to a WiiM 24/192 lossless and gapless
I do have Plex and have seen my library in there and it certainly looks better than the BluOs or WiiM's App for playing local files but i don't actually use it .... something that hardly ever gets a mention is RealPlayer which may be worth having a look at as well although I don't know what quality it casts at.

 

[Kutusov]

There is a big diference, yes, even if you are just using it as a digital transport. At least to me it does. I don't know the science behind it but it's a digital signal that in fact it's quite analogue - it's a voltage. So how it goes through a device will have an influence. Galvanic isolations, filter caps etc play a role and power supplies are particularly important with streamers. I use a Volumio Motivo as a transport and to me it sounds clearly better than a DMP-6 I got to try in my system.

Connections between streamer and DAC are also important. I2S seems to be generaly the best, then AES/EBU, then USB and optical is usually poor. Perhaps because a a good I2S connection is easier and cheaper to make than AES, and there's also the nature of IIS that sends the packets and clock info separately.

Another improvement was getting a cheap Netgear switch before the streamer. That's an upgrade you can try for 10 pounds.

I know this stuff is always controversial (what isn't in HIFI), so I'm just telling you my experience and opinion. YMMV.

 

[David B]

There is a big diference, yes, even if you are just using it as a digital transport. At least to me it does. I don't know the science behind it but it's a digital signal that in fact it's quite analogue - it's a voltage. So how it goes through a device will have an influence. Galvanic isolations, filter caps etc play a role and power supplies are particularly important with streamers. I use a Volumio Motivo as a transport and to me it sounds clearly better than a DMP-6 I got to try in my system.

Connections between streamer and DAC are also important. I2S seems to be generaly the best, then AES/EBU, then USB and optical is usually poor. Perhaps because a a good I2S connection is easier and cheaper to make than AES, and there's also the nature of IIS that sends the packets and clock info separately.

Another improvement was getting a cheap Netgear switch before the streamer. That's an upgrade you can try for 10 pounds.

I know this stuff is always controversial (what isn't in HIFI), so I'm just telling you my experience and opinion. YMMV.

Hi there,

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are making some very interesting points, and I agree that when it comes to streamers, everything seems to be a blend of digital and analogue, and it si difficult to find where to draw the line, which is why I posted my doubts here!
I guess it will come down to testing in the end...
Thanks again

 

[Kutusov]

Hi there,

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are making some very interesting points, and I agree that when it comes to streamers, everything seems to be a blend of digital and analogue, and it si difficult to find where to draw the line, which is why I posted my doubts here!
I guess it will come down to testing in the end...
Thanks again

Pretty much! You'll find opinions about this that are totally the opposite. If you have a dealer that lets you try stuff at home it's easier to find out if you really notice a diference or a diference worth the money to you. If not, buying used is a good way to go about it. Reselling something a couple of weeks later will probably mean no or little loss of money.

 

[daytona600]

Bits should just be Bits and all streamers should sound the same
£99 Wiim streamer should sound same a £20,000+ Pink Faun , Grimm , Emerging , Nagra

Same with Dacs £199 Wiim should sound the same as a £250k DCS Varese or Wadax Reference

Fancy Network switches , Cables , Grounding , External PSUs & £5,000 internet cables should make no diiference

Node 2i with an external RME DAC looks like a good Combo
Wiim and a Cambridge would probably be a step sideways Unless you can increase your budget

 

[Witterings]

Same with Dacs £199 Wiim should sound the same as a £250k DCS Varese or Wadax Reference

I'm sorry but I genuinely believe you're wrong, maybe you haven't tried them or your hearing's not great but there is a very clear difference.

Granted, it's not life changing, and I wouldn't be able to notice it without doing a back to back, but there is definitely a difference.

I don't know about the other bits you mention so I'm only referring to DACs.

 

[record_spot]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum, and after looking at quite a few existing posts, I couldn't find an answer to my question.

I am considering buying a new streamer, for usability issue with my existing one (such as the possibility to use Plex Amp with the Wiim).

I use a Node 2i with an external RME DAC to play exclusively a FLAC library from a local server.

I am very happy with my overall sound, and my question is: in my context, given that the digital to analogue conversion is handled by the external DAC, are there any noticeable differences, between a Wiim pro or ultra at a reasonable price, or a more pricy device such as the Eversolo DMP-A6 or the Cambridge Audio CXN (V2) which are both famous for their quality of sound, at a higher price point.

My understanding would be that the sound quality and sound stage would come purely from the DAC part of those streamers, and the streaming part being simply the digital reading of a numeric file, I would not expect noticeable difference that would justify investing 1000 euros for a Cambridge, instead of 400 for a Wiim ultra.

I am not considering any other features like screen size, inputs and outputs, app, to value one device or another, as I am well-informed on those differences already.

Does anyone have any direct experience comparing a Wiim and a Cambridge for example, using the same external DAC?

Thank you very much for reading!

I use the Wiim Pro Plus with the Cambridge DACMagic 200M. I found the Wiim DAC on its' own rather underwhelming but paired with the Cambridge, the sound is excellent. Exactly to my tastes. The Wiim app is very reliable and regularly updated too.

 

[David B]

I use the Wiim Pro Plus with the Cambridge DACMagic 200M. I found the Wiim DAC on its' own rather underwhelming but paired with the Cambridge, the sound is excellent. Exactly to my tastes. The Wiim app is very reliable and regularly updated too.

Thanks for sharing this! I think I'll try the Wiim Ultra for a while and see how it goes.
Good to hear that you find the app to be good!

 

[David B]

I'm sorry but I genuinely believe you're wrong, maybe you haven't tried them or your hearing's not great but there is a very clear difference.

Granted, it's not life changing, and I wouldn't be able to notice it without doing a back to back, but there is definitely a difference.

I don't know about the other bits you mention so I'm only referring to DACs.

I too, for one, can say that at least the DAC makes a very noticeable difference, and I am sure the super expensive ones must be incredible.
Moving from the internal DAC from the Node to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS has been a revelation for me.
I guess it also depends on the amp, the speakers, the room, and how trained are your ears as well, but for me the gain in clarity, definition and sound stage widening were undeniable from the first few seconds of use...
Here, we are talking about digital to analogue conversion, so to me, it all makes sense.

Witterings, having said that, I find your arguments about the digital signal streaming being transported by electric components that belong more to the analogue realm than the digital, interesting and valid as well, although I expect the gain to be more subtle, and in the end it will come down to cost vs gain to me.

Thanks again everyone for this very interesting debate!

 

[David B]

Node 2i with an external RME DAC looks like a good Combo
Wiim and a Cambridge would probably be a step sideways Unless you can increase your budget

If it was for sound alone, I wouldn't bother changing my current setup. My issue is with the app and the firmware that causes me problems acknowledged by Bluesound, but unresolved to this day...

 

[Revolutions]

One thing every WiiM user seems to agree on is the App is great. Don’t think you can go wrong with the ultra, looks like a fantastic unit for the money 👍🏻

 

[Witterings]

One thing every WiiM user seems to agree on is the App is great. Don’t think you can go wrong with the ultra, looks like a fantastic unit for the money 👍🏻

Interesting video on the Ultra here ..... although if you're using an external DAC, it'll probably have USB in which would then use the DAC's clock rather than the Ultra's making "the promoted" product completely obsolete.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYoRDOfUSGI

 

[Gray]

Bits should just be Bits and all streamers should sound the same

That's very much the theory I would have gone with......
However, recently I've bought a Wiim Ultra.

Comparing its sound with a Raspberry Pi, both used purely as transports into the SAME DAC, (using the same QED optical link) there is a difference in sound - a difference that I think anybody could notice (and not just a very subtle difference, the likes of which you may have heard between different DACs).

This will probably come as no surprise to some....but it's not what I expected.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

That's very much the theory I would have gone with......
However, recently I've bought a Wiim Ultra.

Comparing its sound with a Raspberry Pi, both used purely as transports into the SAME DAC, (using the same QED optical link) there is a difference in sound - a difference that I think anybody could notice (and not just a very subtle difference, the likes of which you may have heard between different DACs).

This will probably come as no surprise to some....but it's not what I expected.

You should host a "testing" party!

Best I could offer is WiiM mini: a) direct to amp; or b) via external DAC to amp as the A/B comparison.

 

[David B]

That's very much the theory I would have gone with......
However, recently I've bought a Wiim Ultra.

Comparing its sound with a Raspberry Pi, both used purely as transports into the SAME DAC, (using the same QED optical link) there is a difference in sound - a difference that I think anybody could notice (and not just a very subtle difference, the likes of which you may have heard between different DACs).

This will probably come as no surprise to some....but it's not what I expected.

Great to hear, thank you!
In your comparison, I would imagine that the WiiM sounded better, right?

 

[Witterings]

Great to hear, thank you!
In your comparison, I would imagine that the WiiM sounded better, right?

Be interesting to see what the answer is ... I just lent a Pro to my neighbour who was feeding it optical out into his Bluesound Node to compare, he also had a Pi he used before he had the Node and thought he'd compare that just for fun and said the Pro sounded better.

 

[Vincent Kars]

There is an explanation. SPDIF is not only transporting bits, it's send rate is used to derive the sample rate. Basically a hybrid bus as the bits are digital and the send rate analog. Hence the quality of the clock of the sender will determine the amount of input jitter.
So differences in bits, of course not. That is exactly what digital is about. Differences in timing, of course. That is what analog is about. No clock without jitter.

However, modern DAC's use asynchronous sample rate conversion. This is the big trick to get rid of the input jitter inherent to legacy protocols like SPDIF or AES/EBU.
Makes me wonder if this has been established using old DAC.

We also know that a placebo can be extremely strong, so strong we take it for real....

 

[David B]

There is an explanation. SPDIF is not only transporting bits, it's send rate is used to derive the sample rate. Basically a hybrid bus as the bits are digital and the send rate analog. Hence the quality of the clock of the sender will determine the amount of input jitter.
So differences in bits, of course not. That is exactly what digital is about. Differences in timing, of course. That is what analog is about. No clock without jitter.

However, modern DAC's use asynchronous sample rate conversion. This is the big trick to get rid of the input jitter inherent to legacy protocols like SPDIF or AES/EBU.
Makes me wonder if this has been established using old DAC.

We also know that a placebo can be extremely strong, so strong we take it for real....

Interesting!
This would go in the same direction as what the video shared by Witterings earlier suggests...

Once I purchase a WiiM ultra after Xmas, I will test all that. I am not sure if I will be able to connect the WiiM to the RME DAC through USB, but if it works, I'll compare it with the coaxial connection, and see what happens!

 

[Gray]

In your comparison, I would imagine that the WiiM sounded better, right?

Not to me no, it didn't.
Like you, I would have expected the Ultra to be at least as good, if not better.

It is possible that another listener might prefer its sound and indeed I've already got a buyer for the Ultra - who has suggested that he may not be as critical with his listening.

(It is true to say that I'm a bit fanatical about the detail in my music and I listen to a high proportion of instrumental music - and my verdict is based on only one track, but one that I know well enough to make a valid judgement).

My Raspberry Pi uses a Hifiberry Digital+ Pro HAT board to output digital.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Interesting!
This would go in the same direction as what the video shared by Witterings earlier suggests...

Once I purchase a WiiM ultra after Xmas, I will test all that. I am not sure if I will be able to connect the WiiM to the RME DAC through USB, but if it works, I'll compare it with the coaxial connection, and see what happens!

The WiiM Ultra has USB out ... so it should be possible. There are posts on the WiiM community forum about it.

 

[Gray]

I am not sure if I will be able to connect the WiiM to the RME DAC through USB

You will 👍
The single USB socket can be used to accept external drives or output to a USB DAC.