Excellent sound quality in a system is enough for most people with neighbours

[matthewpianist]

Rega and Project, where? Technics had to decrease a lot the building quality to produce new models,

I own 60´s, 70´s, 80´s , 90´s and two recent turntable models , all from known brands gueess which work today with perfection while others are in need of repairs no matter the brand.

The two recent ones and the 60´s and 70´s ones, which are the most advanced in technology , sound quality and no need for pre-amplifier just plugged to the phono input on different types of amplification systems, 60´s and 70´s, and yes Technics even from 1972 and still working, with only mandatory maintenance

There's an excellent Rega in my signature for a start, and the Project Debut Evo 2 is a perfectly good turntable for £600. I've owned plenty of older turntables (Pioneer, Sansui, Thorens, Technics), and I wouldn't swap my P3 for any of them.

 

[Rui]

There's an excellent Rega in my signature for a start, and the Project Debut Evo 2 is a perfectly good turntable for £600. I've owned plenty of older turntables (Pioneer, Sansui, Thorens, Technics), and I wouldn't swap my P3 for any of them.

i know well the P3 and it´s older brothers and none is good,

the last i never owned it but some of my friends bought it, the older ones none works,

and i think if you had all those turntables, can you refer one that is not better than any P3 , that will not work without new parts for 10 to 50 years or more

if they were good, in the 80´s a lot of badly built turntables were released into the market like my SL-M1 from Technics and a Pioneer PL-707 and Thorens TD2001 from the 90´s which were really good but at the end of some years had to put to work any Technics or Pioneer that i had from the 70´s,

even early 70´s and have others like Thorens , Dual, Kenwood, Revox etc. all bought by my father, the 70´s ones, that are mine ,now.

I do have a kind of standart ,i hear records because i have them , and even having a considered very good cd player only some have good sound and i compare them by noticing that the cd sounds narrow ,

and the louder is the volume the worst the sound stays and records if with a aceptable turntable sounds wider and real like real instruments being played, not a perverted version of the work done in studio even in digital studios, the record made from it sounds amazing, the cd is garbage

does your P3 sounds that good and which cartridge are you using?

 

[Rui]

I own a Sansui P1000

I grew up with Thorens, but I honestly have to say that with record players I have the idea that soundwise most of them don't make a dent of difference and if there is a nuance difference, my collection is too small and the frequency of playing one is not that high.

Apart from that opinion... it is a decent and good looking model, it is direct drive and would compliment optically with our interior, loudspeakers and amplifier as a set. So I just found an excuse.

* added to wishlist ; )

there are buge diferencies from turntable to turntable, for some reason some are really good and others just aceptable, the cartridge matters ,of course.
Lot´s of diferent ways of assembling a turntable makes a lot of diference while playing a record, the cartridge as i said matters,

a not good turntable without minimum qualitty the cartridge will never sound 100% good, even the headshell is important, also the accuracy for a correct record playing in terms of set up, some don´t last much with a well done set up while others will be correctly working forever with the set up made for it to sound perfect,

i have an example, a Pioneer from 74 if memory doesn´t fail me and always had the original cartridge a PC-30 with PN-30 stylus i never needed to make any correction as it always after putting a new belt and a new stylus all stays perfect reading the record grooves,

others can´t keep the anti-skating value accurate for many years ,sometimes one putting the weight and anti-skating in the same value doesn´t play accurate not only the arm itself but records aren´t all equal it needs sometimes a litle extra touch to sound correct.

Also when with 40 years of use one needs to correct it by hear, or buy a new arm and install it with perfect geometry, allthough the old works if capable of noticing changes in sound towards the end of the record,

another thing i noticed is a rega P3 owner complaining on youtube that they shouldn´t make records with so much time in one side but two records .so a doble lp would be 4xlp

well i saw the albums the refered and none causes problems in hearing them when correctly set up, so i guess specialists on youtube don´t know more than what i learned when 11 years old, that´s when i daily started to hear records from 2 to 4.30 p.m. each day after i would meet my friends and only returned home when 19.30 or 7.30 p.m.,

why from 2 to 4.30 p.m. was when my father was working and he wouldn´t let me touch his system but i would, knowing he couldn´t leave his work before 4.30 p.m., only sometimes he got out at 6.30p.m.when the money was counted by hand,

at the end of the day couldn´t be less money than what was registred to have entered and to avoid a single person having to pay the daily diference all would review the income and outcome money, with computers that stopped being a problem, the IBM´s , i had studied Informatic engeniering either than music, cars, girls and all that i bad to our health , computers were a interest i had

 

[matthewpianist]

i know well the P3 and it´s older brothers and none is good,

the last i never owned it but some of my friends bought it, the older ones none works,

and i think if you had all those turntables, can you refer one that is not better than any P3 , that will not work without new parts for 10 to 50 years or more

if they were good, in the 80´s a lot of badly built turntables were released into the market like my SL-M1 from Technics and a Pioneer PL-707 and Thorens TD2001 from the 90´s which were really good but at the end of some years had to put to work any Technics or Pioneer that i had from the 70´s,

even early 70´s and have others like Thorens , Dual, Kenwood, Revox etc. all bought by my father, the 70´s ones, that are mine ,now.

I do have a kind of standart ,i hear records because i have them , and even having a considered very good cd player only some have good sound and i compare them by noticing that the cd sounds narrow ,

and the louder is the volume the worst the sound stays and records if with a aceptable turntable sounds wider and real like real instruments being played, not a perverted version of the work done in studio even in digital studios, the record made from it sounds amazing, the cd is garbage

does your P3 sounds that good and which cartridge are you using?

My older turntables have included two Thorens TD150 MkII AB (both rebuilt), Pioneer PL12D (rebuilt), Lenco GL-75 (rebuilt) amongst others... I've also owned a Michell TecnoDec with TecnoArm and Sumiko Evo III Blue Point Special, again amongst others. I've had my own turntable since I was 8, which is now nearly 40 years ago.

My current cartridge is a Ortofon 2mr Red. It's the version of the 2m cartridge that has a lower profile body made for arms without VTA adjustment, including Regas. I know you're going to slag the cartridge off, but I've set it up well and it sounds very nice and suits the arm. I have no issues with IGD, and tracking across an LP is excellent. Whilst I would never claim my P3 to be the ultimate in engineering (or even the very best Rega can do with a larger budget), it offers excellent performance for the asking price, and it engages me with the music, which is what really matters.

As for getting into a debate about formats, that in itself is garbage. Vinyl offers no superiority, and digital done correctly is more accurate, but both can be equally enjoyable. Again, it's the enjoyment and musical engagement that counts the most, and I get that from the Rega, my Rotel CD player, the Mission CDT (using the DAC in my amplifier), and the Mission streamer (using its own DAC).

 

[JoelSim]

In a nutshell,

If you have neighbours and not an isolated room then you can not really have your really expensive system on loud enough to enjoy it to its full potential applying to both hi fi and a proper surround sound system with wired speakers, therefore you might as well just get an excellent sounding system for much cheaper cost instead which you can have at a reasonably loud volume and hear its full benefit

Disagree. I live in a flat and my living room is above their living room. I don't need to listen to it loud to appreciate the quality, the key is to buy speakers that sound open from low volume, and not all do.

 

[Rui]

My older turntables have included two Thorens TD150 MkII AB (both rebuilt), Pioneer PL12D (rebuilt), Lenco GL-75 (rebuilt) amongst others... I've also owned a Michell TecnoDec with TecnoArm and Sumiko Evo III Blue Point Special, again amongst others. I've had my own turntable since I was 8, which is now nearly 40 years ago.

My current cartridge is a Ortofon 2mr Red. It's the version of the 2m cartridge that has a lower profile body made for arms without VTA adjustment, including Regas. I know you're going to slag the cartridge off, but I've set it up well and it sounds very nice and suits the arm. I have no issues with IGD, and tracking across an LP is excellent. Whilst I would never claim my P3 to be the ultimate in engineering (or even the very best Rega can do with a larger budget), it offers excellent performance for the asking price, and it engages me with the music, which is what really matters.

As for getting into a debate about formats, that in itself is garbage. Vinyl offers no superiority, and digital done correctly is more accurate, but both can be equally enjoyable. Again, it's the enjoyment and musical engagement that counts the most, and I get that from the Rega, my Rotel CD player, the Mission CDT (using the DAC in my amplifier), and the Mission streamer (using its own DAC).

I have to agree with you, i´m more into real sound, instruments sounding like when they are played but you prefer a image of what is music being played ,

it´s a valid opinion i also have many cds and a good cd player, well more than one, and can give the example of the rock albums in cd that sound perfect to me, like the first ,

Rage against the machine album, or Mad season "Above" or even a e.p. from Alice in Chains "Jar of Flies" or in a diferent way Leftfield"leftfieldism", Massive Attack "Blue Lines" but a lot of albums sound like if i had heard them in cd first wouldn´t like them, like The Cult, Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, Gun Club,

i hace a CEC cd player ofered to me and belt driven ,also a Rega late 90´s said to be good, and a Pioneer PD-9000 older but still sounds very good, using a internal DAC that was more advanced than the PCM that came with it, a Burr Brown´s DAC(i think),

the Meridian from 89 was also good but not better than a high-end pioneer as i also have a PD-S801 and a 906, and people talk a lot about the DAC but i think that the laser is like a main factor for the cd content to be correctly readen,

also have a complete Rotel system that includes a cd player it´s good but maybe 85 or 86 cost me all 150€ even the speakers and furniture were Rotel, i have to say that Rotel in the 70´s was incredible good , refering to amplifiers ,

i also have a PL-12 but looking worn out ,it sure did the work and have the original cartridge that i changed to a PL-70 the PC-30, others are mostly Shure, Audio-Technica , Ortofon and technics(that i was told it was built by Nagaoka), as in the mid 80´s the cartridges and stylus were built by Audio-technica,

the 2M red if one as a good system it reads well the records but the P3 as a turntable is very cheaply built,the older Rega´s were also very good buit none works today people also eat with the eyes and looks cool but i wouldn´t call it a great turntable as it is the simplest it could be,

the P10 i have to say that it sounds good either than looking cool and the Alpheta 3 was good but with the Hana Umami red it´s really good sounding as the Gold Note bellagio with it´s golden cartridge is very good sounding ,

what surprises me is 70´s turntables are stopped for years ,i connect them and they work perfect and no new parts or nothing technical needs substitution and cartridges and the few old type stylus that i still have(Elyptical & Conical) are really good in detail,

i tried MM cartridges the so talked about 2m black isn´t that good also the grado prestige gold III is very high quality but very low output, now one can use excelent phono stages that came in good control amplifiers or integrated amplifiers , even some receivers ,

some say it´s a question of taste but i think not as components are very expensive today, big brands are disapearing and the ones considerd good are priced very high,

If you like your equpment who am i to say it´s not valid, each as it´s own preferencies i only have 70´s equipment in use because are what sound better to me, there´s also the real problem between 1979 built and 1980 built, i call it the Hi-Fi Armagedeon, as today the new turntables are now entering in early 70´s technology only built with not that good materials.

To end the turntables you refer are or used to be good, Thorens had really good turntables ,i myself have three diferent models, two of them built before 1980 they are good but not the strongest in terms of decdes of use, but very sweet sounding

the first i got was for a radio station i started and bought a real nice professional Thorens from a local representant of a national radio station and was there stopped after some tuning it and cleaning,

it worked perfect, it´s like a TD125(buttons are the same design but a lot more in the professional one but 4 in size and in the 90´s bought in 1996 a TD2001 very good turntable,

that had a blue MC cartridge from Ortofon a MK II but now i can´t remember the model but it´s stopped it started to fail and i had to go and get a old technics that it´s working from the 70´s,

a Pioneer i had in my bedroom when younger is still working with the original cartridge it uses a converter as it was bought in japan , a mid 70´s model with a bigger plinth with wood and metal mostly,

i connected it whenever i feel like to and even the belt that i changed it ,maybe in 1988, it still works, and the speed is constant and correct,

that is surprising to me and i was using it in early 90´s but then cds were getting faster (arriving to the market)than records , i bought since 93 a lot of cd´s and records too at a excelent price from 1.5€ to 50 cent.´s in today money .

To end, the VTA is a matter that not all think of it but older turntables have vertical tracking setting like in the 79 Sl-1310 mk II ,with new turntables some tools are getting the work done ,although when installing a new turntable the setting of both weight and anti-skating in a horizontal perfect position, the VTA is more or less correct if all is done as it should and the use of a correct cartridge for the turntable in question or it´s arm

 

[matthewpianist]

I have to agree with you, i´m more into real sound, instruments sounding like when they are played but you prefer a image of what is music being played ,

It's unclear what you are getting at here, but the implication is that I'm more interested in an 'image' than the 'real sound' of the instruments being played. I'm a musician, and I also work in the recorded music industry. I know what live instruments sound like in all sorts of environments. I also know that whatever we can reproduce at home is ultimately down to the capabilities of how the performance was recorded in the studio or live environment. Certain distortions may make us perceive that we hear something which is closer to the sound of the 'real sound', and that is where preference comes into the equation, but the truth is, high fidelity can only ever mean fidelity to the recorded signal itself. Hopefully that all comes together to bring connection to the music, however it's achieved in each person's case.

 

[Rui]

It's unclear what you are getting at here, but the implication is that I'm more interested in an 'image' than the 'real sound' of the instruments being played. I'm a musician, and I also work in the recorded music industry. I know what live instruments sound like in all sorts of environments. I also know that whatever we can reproduce at home is ultimately down to the capabilities of how the performance was recorded in the studio or live environment. Certain distortions may make us perceive that we hear something which is closer to the sound of the 'real sound', and that is where preference comes into the equation, but the truth is, high fidelity can only ever mean fidelity to the recorded signal itself. Hopefully that all comes together to bring connection to the music, however it's achieved in each person's case.

So you must know what i´m refering to , you listen to a cd from a rock band and you hear the same when you´re playing?if you ever played in a rock band ,

i don´t play any instrument but guitars, electronic keyboards ,drums i can play them with my limited knowledge, as i studied music but give up when 14 years old so i studied for almost 7 years, and at home my father had a home studio,

and most of the instruments he had them there and it evolved a lot since 1970 ´till 2022, when he passed away. and when growing up, he would explain to me what this or that was for,

i even recorded a lot of demos when younger , and digital tools were very handy in late 70´s, i don´t critisize digital but the horrible format of compact disc, i know today there are very good albums even 70´s bands with a very good sound but since it appeared on the market were ridiculous the sound of cds compared to the most heard albuns i had ,

when having more money i bought them all in cd thinking it would be a improvement but it´s a joke it sounds horrible, most of them were never played,

the why i bought them, in the 80´s i was hearing music in 70´s systems and the cd playters were bein g played in those expensive 70´s amplifiers and speakers ,

when changing to a new and said to be very good components i almost felt nauseated as the sound was stéril ,really bad , and i think you know that in 1980 the sound of components and it´s building quality was decreased a lot, this by all existing brands,

so if in my house i had a top pioneer system by components from 1976 ,it was old but a 88 Sony Esprit series system looked very good and was expensive, but what sound did i heard ,the worst i ever heard in my life and wasn´t a joke i spent more in my new hi-fi system than in my own car, a 1971 350SE what today is called S-class by mercedes-benz when Daimler-Benz rulled the brand and why they had been so well built untill the year 2000, but some early 2000´s cars were already projected not like new mercedes-benz which are good but with failures like any other brand, or not that much.

Musical equipment is the same, we buy a accuphase system, and it´s good but i have a mid 70´s accuphase system and i´m not going to say to my friends that they spent a fortune in a not so good system,

that the new system doesn´t sound good, one bought those ancient Klipschg LaScala, with a cd player has he also thinks cds sound better but even having a a DC-901 DAC , the sound is far from good with a DP-700 sacd player,

that i also bought but in his new system is far from two m-60´s and a C-200,

equalizers are bad as almost everyone don´t have a clue about the capacities of having one,

like the G-18, as almost no one knows what the frequencies mean in terms of sound, normally i have it off but when cds have a real bad sound i have to try to correct the best i can,

as the bass and treble aren´t enough on most of the amplifiers,

even worst in after 1979 components, this old components were all restored to new and my father spent a fortune in doing it, and drivers from 70´s speakers need to be rebuilt or try new ones,

to end what matters a lot are the microphones in a studio, i own now a colection of some 60 microphones or around it, all stored in cases similar to guitar ones and all organised as they have diferent capabilities and are expensive, each,

if you ask me if records sound better i have to say yes but i didn´t start to listen to music in 2020 but in 1973 daily, as i enjoyed music a lot before not a lot but for a kid are many years,

well you know it better i only can say from experience