So, do all amplifiers sound the same?
- Thread starter drummerman
- Start date
BenLaw
Well-known member
Short answer, no. But, and it is a big but, they can most probably be made to sound subjectively very, very similar. So much so that it probably would take a trained ear to point out the differences. That is regardless of cost and power, as long as they are reasonably well engineered without obvious flaws such as hum and significant distortion and as long as they operate well within their design parameters, meaning a few watts at most for budget products.
Still, it would be very difficult to set this up as a controlled test as the above mentioned design parameters can be inherently different thus engineered into to core design of varying amplifiers.
Take a 'typical' Naim for example; High frequency bandwidth limited and with a low(ish) damping factor of around 15, both deliberate. They are partly responsible for the Naim 'house sound' ... subjectively dark, relatively full and propulsive with limited sound stage width compared to some others.
How could you make the Naim sound like say, the Pioneer next to it? Impossible unless you start alternating circuits of the Naim. You couldn't easily restore 'missing' high frequency that are not there anymore or increase damping without it. However, if that Pioneer has tone or even a loudness control, you are probably able to almost replicate the Naim sound signature to a 'T'.
I hear you say ... ' eek, loudness controlls, never on my nelly' ... . Whatever you call it, loudness or bass, treble even mid controls ... it is essentially what amplifier designers engineer into their products anyhow. They do this by careful part selection, circuit layouts resulting in a 'fixed' tone control. Think of it as a 'pre-set' for another term ... without the ability to change it.
Where big, powerful (or just very well designed) amplifiers differ is in maintaining these sound signatures at higher volume. Transient response as well as maintaining supply over longer than milisecond windows to difficult loads and lower frequencies are the perogative of good power supplies. That costs money.
At lower levels, one, two or perhaps ten watts, enough to play fairly loud in domestic circumstances, most decently engineered amplifiers can probably be made to sound very similar, especially if you have tone controls.
regards
Still, it would be very difficult to set this up as a controlled test as the above mentioned design parameters can be inherently different thus engineered into to core design of varying amplifiers.
Take a 'typical' Naim for example; High frequency bandwidth limited and with a low(ish) damping factor of around 15, both deliberate. They are partly responsible for the Naim 'house sound' ... subjectively dark, relatively full and propulsive with limited sound stage width compared to some others.
How could you make the Naim sound like say, the Pioneer next to it? Impossible unless you start alternating circuits of the Naim. You couldn't easily restore 'missing' high frequency that are not there anymore or increase damping without it. However, if that Pioneer has tone or even a loudness control, you are probably able to almost replicate the Naim sound signature to a 'T'.
I hear you say ... ' eek, loudness controlls, never on my nelly' ... . Whatever you call it, loudness or bass, treble even mid controls ... it is essentially what amplifier designers engineer into their products anyhow. They do this by careful part selection, circuit layouts resulting in a 'fixed' tone control. Think of it as a 'pre-set' for another term ... without the ability to change it.
Where big, powerful (or just very well designed) amplifiers differ is in maintaining these sound signatures at higher volume. Transient response as well as maintaining supply over longer than milisecond windows to difficult loads and lower frequencies are the perogative of good power supplies. That costs money.
At lower levels, one, two or perhaps ten watts, enough to play fairly loud in domestic circumstances, most decently engineered amplifiers can probably be made to sound very similar, especially if you have tone controls.
regards
BenLaw said:
Never is Ben. Its just my take on it ... sorry for some reason I can't post a new thread in one go! |(
Very nice systems you have by the way. I had a look through some of the reader photos recently.
Hoopsontoast, I am not sure if you are the same guy as over at DIY Audio? If you are then you know a lot about amplifier design and perhaps agree with me. I would be interested to hear your take on the thesis but in essence, I agree with you that not all amps sound the same, if perhaps not for the same reasons other people assume.
regards
altruistic.lemon said:
Probably a slightly simplistic view, no offense intended, but I understand. Unfortunately, specs are rarely the same even if they look superficially (on paper) similar. It would be difficult to find two different brand amplifiers, even at the same power rating, which use identical components and layout, starting from transformer and ending at the output stage, much of which can be responsible for sound signature.
But, as afromentioned, I think it is possible to almost make them sound the same so I agree with you to an extend.
regards
Overdose
Well-known member
Does the Harbeth challenge need to be posted again?
There are some sure fire winners of some very expensive speakers on this forum.
There are some sure fire winners of some very expensive speakers on this forum.
IMHO the answer is no. I recently went from a Naim SuperNait to a Sugden Masterclass IA4 and the difference (at least to my ears) was as obvious as night and day - greater detail, definition and (surprisingly) more PRaT and power.
Then again, I recall that Harbeth's chief designer Alan Shaw says that his speakers will sound the same when paired with any properly designed amp and has a standing challenge to anyone who can correctly identify different amps in a controlled, scientific test.
I believe the incentive is a pair of Harbeth's top-of-the-line Monitor 40.1s but no one has managed to win them yet.
Then again, I recall that Harbeth's chief designer Alan Shaw says that his speakers will sound the same when paired with any properly designed amp and has a standing challenge to anyone who can correctly identify different amps in a controlled, scientific test.
I believe the incentive is a pair of Harbeth's top-of-the-line Monitor 40.1s but no one has managed to win them yet.
Paul.
Well-known member
drummerman said:
Hi am on diyaudio but not as hoopsontoast. I dont know much about technical amplifier design.
Two similar design amplifiers 'should' sound the same, but they dont. A 1.5w SET WILL sound different to a 200w SS amp given its output characteristics. Two 1.5w SET amps based on the same tube (SV83/EL84 for example) might sound different with different tubes, which can be put down to manufacturing tolerances and differences in the tubes themselves.
You have to take into account the speaker its being used with. For example a monster 200w SS amp is not likely a good match for some 99dB full range horn speakers, where as the 1.5W SET amp is likely to be a better match, with its high output impedance rolling off the elevated treble in the full range driver.
This is obviously a wide mis-match example, very similar amps into normal speakers I would guess there would be less difference as long as the amplifier is not being driven into clipping or distortion.
But then I have heard (IMO) a difference going between very similar amplifiers (design and spec) into easy to drive speakers so really at the end of the day, its subjective.
If someone hears a difference (positive) in a change in amplifier, cable, cd transport or even cable lifters and other foo, and is happy to pay the price for an improvement to them, then fair play.
IME these sorts of 'tweaks' make little difference so I will leave it at amplifier make a big difference, but In My Experience, less so on other 'upgrades'.
hoopsontoast said:
Hoopsontoast, yes, certain tube amplifiers, expecially the very low powered ones, can respond differently and speaker loads/sensitivity will have to be taken into consideration. There are however plenty of valve powered amplifiers that have very low distortion (the main difference for perceived (and measured) differences other than frequency extreme variations due to power supply and output transformer limitiations (or induced frequency variations at different volume due to pot design/wiring, not unique to valve amplifiers by the way). My thesis is based on designs with similar engineering criteria. It doesn't include products with deliberately created (or, in some cases just badly designed) harmonic distortion as a means to change sound as mentioned in my OP (or no.4 I think due to my problems with this site)
regards
Do all blonde ladies look the same? :twisted:
A quick listen to Arcam vs Cyrus will show a difference, or Luxman (AB) vs Bryston
Even Tube amps can sound different - Unison Research vs VTL, as an example.
A quick listen to Arcam vs Cyrus will show a difference, or Luxman (AB) vs Bryston
Even Tube amps can sound different - Unison Research vs VTL, as an example.
BenLaw
Well-known member
Yeah all exactly the same.. It's only because we expect them to sound different we hear the changes. Same with speakers, interconnects and source.. It's all a conspiracy
Anyone who thinks all amps sound the same is very welcome to come and listen to my HiFi. I still have a Cyrus II+PSX here, and a Marantz PM66KI. Their different tonal characteristics are so obvious you won't need to ABX.
CnoEvil said:
Well, I'm not 'all' blondes, thank you ...
Must mention your system as well as Ben's. Admirable and beyond what most of us can aspire to. Very nice indeed.
As to Arcam versus Cyrus, or other similar combinations, if that is your experience then I of course respect that.
Perhaps it would be worth mentioning though that if one of them had tone or a loudness control, the outcome would imo be more indifferent than many people would expect. I respectfully refer you to my OP for more on that. Of course thats just my take on it.
Nice though, that there is such a broad base of opinions. It makes everything more interesting
regards
MajorFubar said:
I do believe you but also remember that any sighted comparison, whilst not impossible, is also flawed. Once again, if they, or at least one of them had tone controls, the results would perhaps be less clear, sighted or not. I dont have any measurements to hand of your cyrus II but it is perhaps also possible that the design 'suffers' from a different distortion pattern than the Marantz. Whilst it is as far as I know not possible to precisely mimic distortion with means of tone controls (or an equalizer) it would perhaps be likely to make the outcome very close indeed.
regards
MajorFubar said:
I do believe you but also remember that any sighted comparison, whilst not impossible, is also flawed. Once again, if they, or at least one of them had tone controls, the results would perhaps be less clear, sighted or not. I dont have any measurements to hand of your cyrus II but it is perhaps also possible that the design 'suffers' from a different distortion pattern than the Marantz. Whilst it is as far as I know not possible to precisely mimic distortion with means of tone controls (or an equalizer) it would perhaps be likely to make the outcome very close indeed.
regards
PS. It is a real pain to post on this forum today. Everything is so slow!! Perhaps its just me
plastic penguin
Well-known member
This is my interpretation, but amplifiers are speaker sensitive, hence why Cyrus generally sound better with smoother monitors, while Nad excel with brighter (livelier) speakers.
Amplifiers - within a £200 price scale - have slight tonal differences. However, when comparing budget with higher end amps then there is a (very) noticeable uplift.
Last week I hooked up my old Arcam Alpha and it sounded almost primitive compared to the Leema.
Another example was when I had a Cyrus 8VS2 (£800) and Roksan Kandy LIII (£650) in my living room at the same time - the kandy won hands down hooked to my MAs. Tecnically the Cyrus was a better unit, but did sound disjointed compared to the Kandy.
Also room acoustics has a fairly significant say in how the overall system sounds.
So to answer the question: No.
Amplifiers - within a £200 price scale - have slight tonal differences. However, when comparing budget with higher end amps then there is a (very) noticeable uplift.
Last week I hooked up my old Arcam Alpha and it sounded almost primitive compared to the Leema.
Another example was when I had a Cyrus 8VS2 (£800) and Roksan Kandy LIII (£650) in my living room at the same time - the kandy won hands down hooked to my MAs. Tecnically the Cyrus was a better unit, but did sound disjointed compared to the Kandy.
Also room acoustics has a fairly significant say in how the overall system sounds.
So to answer the question: No.
drummerman said:
Like an AB amp then, which isn't all Class A
drummerman said:
Thank you for the kind comment. Interestingly, there is a similarity of character between the AVR600 and the 35i. I tried a Coda CSI (quite good) and Moon i-7 (didn't like it at all) before settling on the MF (which really does sound very differnent to any AB amp)
drummerman said:
Not just my experience, I suspect.
drummerman said:
My experience of tone controls is that they are a rather crude device that don't really change the character of an amp...eg I suspect. a Cyrus with tone contols couldn't be made sound particularly like an Arcam....though it would be an interesting experiment.
drummerman said:
Yup, everyone seems to have one, all right!
plastic penguin said:
Correct to a certain extend. How much frequency variation an amplifier has with a variety of different speakers/loads is to some extend down to its output impedance, determined in turn on feedback/topology. The rest is down to many other factors, from the chosen volume control to powersupply but there is where it mostly differs at higher volumes and capability of supplying peak demands without clipping. My example was at volumes which are well within the capabilities of a decently designed amplifier. Some products are relatively unfazed by difficult speaker loads (which, in turn happens at different frequencies, depending on the design) ... others would struggle. BUT, used at a volume which is within the capabilities of the weaker amplifier and into a relatively benign load, leaving extreme examples such as some electrostatics out of the equation, with the help of some tone controls, would you really be able to tell the two different designs/makes apart?
regards
plastic penguin
Well-known member
All my home dems have been with various amps connected to the RS6s and Arcam CD73. Also this is why when buying an amp I totally ignore specs: If it sounds "right", regardless of reviews I'll buy....
This could also answer why so many people rate active speakers: the amp section and speakers are obviously perfectly matched, which limits, to a certain degree, need for "absolute" system matching.
Yes, I agree, take the power issue out of the equation, in and around the same price bracket, there's minimal difference.
As I've found that the best components don't necessarily give you the best sound.
This could also answer why so many people rate active speakers: the amp section and speakers are obviously perfectly matched, which limits, to a certain degree, need for "absolute" system matching.
Yes, I agree, take the power issue out of the equation, in and around the same price bracket, there's minimal difference.
As I've found that the best components don't necessarily give you the best sound.
plastic penguin said:
Probably not just in the same price bracket. An arcwelder of an amplifier will give you more volume and options as to what speakers to use but on a 'level playing field' and perhaps with the help of a little equalization, the results may surprise.
I agree with you on the other points raised and lests not forget, facilities, looks etc matter too.
regards
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