So, do all amplifiers sound the same?

[CnoEvil]

All beans sound the same.

No they don't! :twisted:

 

[BenLaw]

Ah good, at least you accept that when someone says 'there's definitely a difference because I heard it' we can't take that at face value and it is 'more complicated than it first appears to be'.

Likewise, when someone who hasn't heard it, says there isn't a difference.

Yeah. Fwiw that's not me. My initial inclination would be they do, but I've never done back to back amp comparisons with my speakers, source and room. Reading some of the science that I linked to earlier (I'm sure no-one read it but it's useful to understand what's going on IMO before choosing kit one likes the sound of) is quite persuasive that the harbeth challenge must be right for properly designed amps driving speakers they can handle, at the same volume, before clipping. You'll note that this does not apply to tube amps and certain class A, which add detectable second order harmonics, which give the 'warmth' ('musicality') you like in your amplification.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yeah. Fwiw that's not me. My initial inclination would be they do, but I've never done back to back amp comparisons with my speakers, source and room. Reading some of the science that I linked to earlier (I'm sure no-one read it but it's useful to understand what's going on IMO before choosing kit one likes the sound of) is quite persuasive that the harbeth challenge must be right for properly designed amps driving speakers they can handle, at the same volume, before clipping. You'll note that this does not apply to tube amps and certain class A, which add detectable second order harmonics, which give the 'warmth' ('musicality') you like in your amplification.

A true SS Class A amp removes crossover distortion and doesn't have the "weakness" of valves.....though, before one dismisses valves, they are worth hearing.

VTL amps produce some of the most dynamic, natural sounds I have ever heard. Not all Valve amps are created equal.

 

[Native_bon]

Native_bon, I know you say none of your work has been officially released but do you have links to anything you've produced? I'd be really interested to hear some

Off topic. Also. house rules.

 

[BenLaw]

Native_bon, I know you say none of your work has been officially released but do you have links to anything you've produced? I'd be really interested to hear some

Off topic. Also. house rules.

Being off topic has never stopped me before! And unless there is obscenity there are no house rules problems. Please?

 

[BenLaw]

Yeah. Fwiw that's not me. My initial inclination would be they do, but I've never done back to back amp comparisons with my speakers, source and room. Reading some of the science that I linked to earlier (I'm sure no-one read it but it's useful to understand what's going on IMO before choosing kit one likes the sound of) is quite persuasive that the harbeth challenge must be right for properly designed amps driving speakers they can handle, at the same volume, before clipping. You'll note that this does not apply to tube amps and certain class A, which add detectable second order harmonics, which give the 'warmth' ('musicality') you like in your amplification.

A true SS Class A amp removes crossover distortion and doesn't have the "weakness" of valves.....though, before one dismisses valves, they are worth hearing.

VTL amps produce some of the most dynamic, natural sounds I have ever heard. Not all Valve amps are created equal.

I wasn't talking about crossover distortion, nor dismiss valves. Read the article.

 

[CnoEvil]

I wasn't talking about crossover distortion, nor dismiss valves. Read the article.

I missed it because it wasn't in blue. :doh:

Interesting.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

No amps do not sound the same, even with tone controls.

The whole point of an amp is to amplify a signal, simple enough, but to do its job the amp must be able to control the speakers being used. Some amps do this better than others, even in the same price bracket. Even at 'fixed' levels the way an amp controls the driver in the speaker of choice will differ giving differnt harmonics hence a different sound.

An amp fully in control of its speakers will produce what the sound engineer intended to be heard, We all know that different parts of the driver produces different frequencies right?, hence an amp capable of getting a drive unit to produce the full frequency range presented to it will sound different to a less sophisticated amp. ambience, reverb, transients and all those hifi things.

Tone controls cannot make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. If a source provides a super hi res signal, but an amps cheap innards degrades this signal, and its control over the drive units in your speakers is lacking, you will never get it to sound like a well sorted amp. It'll never sound the same.

You can fiddle till your fiddle drops off, it won't, some amps are just better than others at amplifying.

 

[steve_1979]

Native_bon, I know you say none of your work has been officially released but do you have links to anything you've produced? I'd be really interested to hear some

Off topic. Also. house rules.

Being off topic has never stopped me before! And unless there is obscenity there are no house rules problems. Please?

+1

I'd like to hear some of your music too.

 

[BenLaw]

I wasn't talking about crossover distortion, nor dismiss valves. Read the article.

I missed it because it wasn't in blue. :doh:

Interesting.

Yeah, that seems to happen most (tho not all) times I post with my phone, annoying.

 

[Craig M.]

I wasn't talking about crossover distortion, nor dismiss valves. Read the article.

I missed it because it wasn't in blue. :doh:

Interesting.

Yeah, that seems to happen most (tho not all) times I post with my phone, annoying.

As it's such an informative piece...

http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

Good link Ben, suprisingly all of that site was allowed in my ad-blocker, I must have visited it before.

 

[jcbrum]

Hmmmm, well, a way to test an amplifier is to compare it's input with it's output.

I'm not sure I'd want to do that with baked beans, though.

JC

 

[Anonymous]

Yes. I think if it can drive the rated ohms of your speakers, and if distortion is below .1%, every amp sounds the same. This endless and expensive search for costly high-end amps is all manufacturers' hype (IMHO).

No offence but that's the same (wrong) line of thinking which believes that the SQ of an amp is directly related to how loud it goes. I'm sure you would be very easily able to disprove that theory to yourself by going to listen to a number different amps, blind or not, and you don't have to spend megabucks to hear it. Listen to something from Arcam and Cyrus for example and it's blindingly obvious, their presentation is completely different to each other.

Sorry, but this line of thinking is related to psychosomatic illusion. If you're told something sounds better than something else, your brain will convince you it must be true. Amp manufacturers have won this game of illusion, along with your bank account. No offense ('s' not 'c').

 

[Helmut80]

All beans sound the same.

No they don't! :twisted:

If they measure the same, the should

 

[drummerman]

No, it shows that your brain fills in when it expects something to taste (or sound) a certain way.

This may be partially true, but it's too simplistic (imo). Colour and taste are inextricably bound together.....probably going back to our ancestors, where being hardwired to avoid eating things of certain colours could save your life.

Using the right food colouring to make stuff look more appetizing, is very much based on known science.

And I'm pretty certain the purveyours of aircraft-grade steel-cased amps at aircraft-grade prices know something about the equivalent, inextricably linked science when it comes to sound

By the way, I do think amps sound different. I'm certain of it. But I do wonder about dm's interesting concept of them sounding the same with tone controls...on that I think it's a very big maybe.

FrOg, certainly a maybe yes. I have a Denon receiver in my bedroom system. Not much power. Has tone controls. Use the loudness facility and it sounds like a completely different amplifier. Powerful and fuller mids, I am pretty certain I could make it to be perceived as a Naim (example) with a little tweaking as long as its within the envelope of what it can do. All an illusion and at higher levels it will run out of puff. The problem will arise when I try to do the same with amplifiers that have high inherent distortion such as certain valve amplifiers or transistor ones with predominately thirds ... that hard, glassy sound. It would be difficult to replicate these. Similar with amplifiers that have (very) low damping factors. Speakers with high bass damping would have to be used in a blind test to even the field.

I think thats where the confusion and difference of opinions come from. There are a fair few factors determining how an amplifier speaker combination will sound but basically, I do believe that most well engineered amplifiers are comparable in sound as long as certain common factors are adhered to, as mentioned before and as long as they are used within their design parameters. A few watts in many cases, which is all most people use in every day listening.

I have noticed that there are a fair few of you from the 'dark side' on here at the moment ... must come over and give my Xmas wishes. Sent one to the little man but I think he still has the hump.

Have a great Xmas and a good New Year

regards

 

[BigColz]

No, it shows that your brain fills in when it expects something to taste (or sound) a certain way.

This may be partially true, but it's too simplistic (imo). Colour and taste are inextricably bound together.....probably going back to our ancestors, where being hardwired to avoid eating things of certain colours could save your life.

Using the right food colouring to make stuff look more appetizing, is very much based on known science.

And I'm pretty certain the purveyours of aircraft-grade steel-cased amps at aircraft-grade prices know something about the equivalent, inextricably linked science when it comes to sound

By the way, I do think amps sound different. I'm certain of it. But I do wonder about dm's interesting concept of them sounding the same with tone controls...on that I think it's a very big maybe.

FrOg, certainly a maybe yes. I have a Denon receiver in my bedroom system. Not much power. Has tone controls. Use the loudness facility and it sounds like a completely different amplifier. Powerful and fuller mids, I am pretty certain I could make it to be perceived as a Naim (example) with a little tweaking as long as its within the envelope of what it can do. All an illusion and at higher levels it will run out of puff. The problem will arise when I try to do the same with amplifiers that have high inherent distortion such as certain valve amplifiers or transistor ones with predominately thirds ... that hard, glassy sound. It would be difficult to replicate these. Similar with amplifiers that have (very) low damping factors. Speakers with high bass damping would have to be used in a blind test to even the field.

I think thats where the confusion and difference of opinions come from. There are a fair few factors determining how an amplifier speaker combination will sound but basically, I do believe that most well engineered amplifiers are comparable in sound as long as certain common factors are adhered to, as mentioned before and as long as they are used within their design parameters. A few watts in many cases, which is all most people use in every day listening.

I have noticed that there are a fair few of you from the 'dark side' on here at the moment ... must come over and give my Xmas wishes. Sent one to the little man but I think he still has the hump.

Have a great Xmas and a good New Year

regards

You may be able to come close to replicating a 'signiture sound' of a certain amp but if it won't be able replicate but it won't be able to get the seperation, detail and clean background of much higher quality amp is it just doesn't replicate the source well enough.. The whole point in high fidelity is to get the purest sound form the source and an amplifier with cheaper lower grade components, higher distortion and lesser shieded internals from electrostatic and other interferences is never going to sound as good as one that has been desined to prevent these issues.. Although I find with pretty much all high end class D amps they sound over anylitical and unforgiving on bad recordings.. Electrocompaniet design their amp free of a type of distortion (TIM) that gets rid of the cold anylitical sound and sounds cleaner and slightly warmer like a class A (which has zero crossover distortion) or a tube amp..

 

[BigColz]

I think I cut and pasted some bits wrong at the start so you may have a ******** deja vu monent when reading it.. :doh:

 

[drummerman]

I think I cut and pasted some bits wrong at the start so you may have a ******** deja vu monent when reading it.. :doh:

Understand BigColz, not a problem.

Note, I said well engineered. Now, there are plenty of examples of so called 'high end' products which suffer from all sorts of ailments because of bad design. Just to give one example, there are many more, Micromegas last amplifier with unshielded streaming module. Interference all over the place and it was apparently easily audible.

Well engineered doesn't necesseraly has to be expensive. Using boutique parts does not guarantee good measurements or sound. Proper design, circuit layout etc does go a long way towards it. There are many expensive amplifiers that have high noise floors, hum, high output impedance etc etc.

regards

 

[BigColz]

I think I cut and pasted some bits wrong at the start so you may have a ******** deja vu monent when reading it.. :doh:

Understand BigColz, not a problem.

Note, I said well engineered. Now, there are plenty of examples of so called 'high end' products which suffer from all sorts of ailments because of bad design. Just to give one example, there are many more, Micromegas last amplifier with unshielded streaming module. Interference all over the place and it was apparently easily audible.

Well engineered doesn't necesseraly has to be expensive. Using boutique parts does not guarantee good measurements or sound. Proper design, circuit layout etc does go a long way towards it. There are many expensive amplifiers that have high noise floors, hum, high output impedance etc etc.

regards

Yeah fair point.. I certainly don't think more money = better.. I love my budget Cambridge Audio system and I just 'downgraded' my amp in my sig. Picking it up Sat, Can't wait :rofl: Looking forward to just enjoying the music! Merry Christmas :cheers:

 

[drummerman]

... and to you

regards

 

[Electro]

All beans sound the same.

No they don't! :twisted:

All depends on whether it's methane or hydrogen

 

[jcbrum]

Valve amps sound like has-beans.

 

[CnoEvil]

Valve amps sound like has-beans.

Like me then....wait long enough and we will be back as the latest trend.....though it can be a long wait!

 

[MajorFubar]

Blimey is this thread still banging on, when the indisputable literal answer to the question is quite simply 'no'...

 

[jcbrum]

Blimey is this thread still banging on, when the indisputable literal answer to the question is quite simply 'no'...

Does that mean they're all broken, then ?

If the requirement is simply to amplify, without distortion, then shouldn't they all sound the same ?

JC