Clare - thanks for sharing this. Whilst I recently became a regular buyer of WHF (as I am getting a new system soon) I am a newbie on these forums and certainly did not want to retread some old flame wars. You are absolutely correct that manufacturers should be clearer - RA only has himself to blame if the OTT marketing turns people off - the marketing speak certainly turns me off and I have no intention of buying such products myself. Ironic since as you note, WHF has rated some products 5 stars on the basis of hearing alone regardless of marketing speak.
Claire, when we design cables we design them to customer spec they then put the marketing package together not the manufacturers.
We design and manufacture cable for a number of of brands and the they all do it!
We design and manufacture cable for a number of of brands and the they all do it!
Clare as a cable manufacturer we make cable for all and badge it for accordingly, they then say what they want about it in terms of PR. Yes they do over hype things somewhat, most oem's do in all industries, be it cable or speaker sensitivity, amp power etc....
All I can say is when tested in labs we can see measurable differences in all cables from high to low spec
All I can say is when tested in labs we can see measurable differences in all cables from high to low spec
John Duncan
Well-known member
- Jan 8, 2008
- 2,034
- 30
- 19,720
[quote user="chris lowe"]All I can say is when tested in labs we can see measurable differences in all cables from high to low spec[/quote]
How?
How?
Insulation resistance and capcitence readings vary from design to design, these are the measurable factors.
So there is no point in using silver conductors in interconnects and a cheap wire is just as likely to work well as an expensive one. Agreed?
no because different systems sound better or worse depending on the type of cable used. By change my interconnets a few moniths ago has made a huge improvement in what was a slightly bright system. I did try other cables but found that audioquest Jaguars warmed things up by some margin. Your ears your choice, buy what sounds best to you
Hang on everyone - the only thing the ASA was ruling on related to mains cables like the Powerkord (£1,800 for the "Silver Signature PowerKord" - wohoo!).
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
The "snake oil" charge for people like Russ Andrews relates to the hyperbolic claims that their mains cable will make your audio sound significantly better. The general view of recording engineers is that spending £1,800 on something like the Silver Signature PowerKord is something only done by idiots. But then to each their own...
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
The "snake oil" charge for people like Russ Andrews relates to the hyperbolic claims that their mains cable will make your audio sound significantly better. The general view of recording engineers is that spending £1,800 on something like the Silver Signature PowerKord is something only done by idiots. But then to each their own...
[quote user="leonardng"]
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
[/quote]
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src="blogworth" reading
jules.
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
[/quote]
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src="blogworth" reading
jules.
So there is no point in using silver conductors in interconnects and a
cheap wire is just as likely to work well as an expensive one. Agreed?
[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
Nope. Just for example, the ASA ruling said there was plenty of evidence re speaker cables...
[/quote]
The clue is in the word "interconnects", Clare.
cheap wire is just as likely to work well as an expensive one. Agreed?
[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
Nope. Just for example, the ASA ruling said there was plenty of evidence re speaker cables...
[/quote]
The clue is in the word "interconnects", Clare.
[quote user="jules153"][quote user="leonardng"]
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
[/quote]
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src="blog"
worth reading
jules.[/quote]
Yes, I remember seeing that some years back and thinking maybe there is a point to all this. I also then recalled an edition of Sound on Sound which described Gilmour's studio and where Andy Jackson admitted he would probably get flamed for saying those cables made a difference! (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06/articles/andyjackson.htm)
This blind test is interesting http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html - "Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla. Therefore, we cannot conclude that different power cords produce a difference using the blind ABX protocol. However, we also cannot conclude that there are no differences. We simply failed to prove that differences can be detected to a statistically significant degree using a blind ABX protocol."
Whatever works or whatever you hear, that is fine (as Clare has pointed out).
From my perspective, I'm not sure esoteric power cables offer nothing at all; but I think some guys like RA take the piss with the pricing. You spend £1,800 on a fancy Silver Powercord but then that electricity goes straight into your amp/CD player which uses normal power cabling internally.
The thing that recording engineers take the piss out of is things like the Powerkord. There is no question amongst engineers that for interconnects i.e. cables which pass audio information (be they analog or digital), there are significant audio differences between a £2 cable and a £20 cable.
[/quote]
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src="blog"
worth reading
jules.[/quote]
Yes, I remember seeing that some years back and thinking maybe there is a point to all this. I also then recalled an edition of Sound on Sound which described Gilmour's studio and where Andy Jackson admitted he would probably get flamed for saying those cables made a difference! (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul06/articles/andyjackson.htm)
This blind test is interesting http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html - "Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla. Therefore, we cannot conclude that different power cords produce a difference using the blind ABX protocol. However, we also cannot conclude that there are no differences. We simply failed to prove that differences can be detected to a statistically significant degree using a blind ABX protocol."
Whatever works or whatever you hear, that is fine (as Clare has pointed out).
From my perspective, I'm not sure esoteric power cables offer nothing at all; but I think some guys like RA take the piss with the pricing. You spend £1,800 on a fancy Silver Powercord but then that electricity goes straight into your amp/CD player which uses normal power cabling internally.
I'm glad this has happened to RA, imo their claims in their catalogues are absolutely rediculous and I have bought a couple of products from RA in the past and not been impressed. imo they are over priced and RA uses these rediculous claims to make them seem worth it.
I would also like to criticise WHF here for not considering price enough when handing out ratings.
I would also like to criticise WHF here for not considering price enough when handing out ratings.
Hmm - I've just seen the other topic about tests on interconnects and mains cables. Sorry to have added to this long debate, which I guess from what I have read never gets anywhere. So go on, spend 5p or £500 on the mains cables - whatever makes you happy!
Me, I'll just go on doing my little music production thingy.
Nice to have met you all and thanks for this great forum.
www.myspace.com/leonardng
Me, I'll just go on doing my little music production thingy.
Nice to have met you all and thanks for this great forum.
www.myspace.com/leonardng
[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
No need to be sarcy
I was responding to your phrase 'cheap wire'.
[/quote]
That came across as much more tetchy than I intended. Sorry. I was referring to cheap wire used in interconnects.
No need to be sarcy
I was responding to your phrase 'cheap wire'.
[/quote]
That came across as much more tetchy than I intended. Sorry. I was referring to cheap wire used in interconnects.
[quote user="leonardng"]
Hmm - I've just seen the other topic about tests on interconnects and mains cables. Sorry to have added to this long debate, which I guess from what I have read never gets anywhere. So go on, spend 5p or £500 on the mains cables - whatever makes you happy!
Me, I'll just go on doing my little music production thingy.
Nice to have met you all and thanks for this great forum.
www.myspace.com/leonardng
[/quote]
No, don't apologise. That was an excellent posting which I, and many others by the looks of it, found very interesting.
Hmm - I've just seen the other topic about tests on interconnects and mains cables. Sorry to have added to this long debate, which I guess from what I have read never gets anywhere. So go on, spend 5p or £500 on the mains cables - whatever makes you happy!
Me, I'll just go on doing my little music production thingy.
Nice to have met you all and thanks for this great forum.
www.myspace.com/leonardng
[/quote]
No, don't apologise. That was an excellent posting which I, and many others by the looks of it, found very interesting.
ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) condemns Russ Andrews and ruled that he breached number of CAP (Committee of Advertising Practice) Codes that cover Substantiation, Truthfulness, and Comparisons.
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm
Some people, crafty hi-fi salesmen included, try to justify themselves by claiming that it is their 'opinion', no matter it is devious, mis-leading or utter rubbish!
ASA Adjudication is very thorough. It concludes by asserting,
"We told Russ Andrews not use the claims again unless they could substantiate them with robust scientific evidence."
Will Mr. Russ Andrews stop his tactics or will he, the sort of clever man that he is, find ways around CAP Codes?
I would also like to see withdrawal of some of his offerings; voluntarily or otherwise.
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm
Some people, crafty hi-fi salesmen included, try to justify themselves by claiming that it is their 'opinion', no matter it is devious, mis-leading or utter rubbish!
ASA Adjudication is very thorough. It concludes by asserting,
"We told Russ Andrews not use the claims again unless they could substantiate them with robust scientific evidence."
Will Mr. Russ Andrews stop his tactics or will he, the sort of clever man that he is, find ways around CAP Codes?
I would also like to see withdrawal of some of his offerings; voluntarily or otherwise.
[quote user="BlueMax"]ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) condemns Russ Andrews and ruled that he breached number of CAP (Committee of Advertising Practice) Codes that cover Substantiation, Truthfulness, and Comparisons. http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm Some people, crafty hi-fi salesmen included, try to justify themselves by claiming that it is their 'opinion', no matter it is devious, mis-leading or utter rubbish! ASA Adjudication is very thorough. It concludes by asserting, "We told Russ Andrews not use the claims again unless they could substantiate them with robust scientific evidence." Will Mr. Russ Andrews stop his tactics or will he, the sort of clever man that he is, find ways around CAP Codes? I would also like to see withdrawal of some of his offerings; voluntarily or otherwise[/quote]
This issue has just been discussed in length.
His company is no worse or better than many others. I am the biggest cynic there is when it comes to certain accessories but as long as there are idiots out there that buy in that xxxx....
This issue has just been discussed in length.
His company is no worse or better than many others. I am the biggest cynic there is when it comes to certain accessories but as long as there are idiots out there that buy in that xxxx....
[quote user="drummerman"]as long as there are idiots out there that buy in that xxxx...[/quote]
... I re-phrase that ... as long as there are people out there that believe in such products why not sell those to them
... I re-phrase that ... as long as there are people out there that believe in such products why not sell those to them
Is it too old fashioned to mention ethics?!
Or gaining personal satisfaction by providing goods and services that are genuinely of use to another human being?
Russ Andrews is an enterprising businessman intelligent enough to design, manufacture and sell some rather good hi-fi products, albeit at very high prices. Therefore is it necessary for such a person to make a living by sinking to this level?
Or gaining personal satisfaction by providing goods and services that are genuinely of use to another human being?
Russ Andrews is an enterprising businessman intelligent enough to design, manufacture and sell some rather good hi-fi products, albeit at very high prices. Therefore is it necessary for such a person to make a living by sinking to this level?
[quote user="BlueMax"]Is it too old fashioned to mention ethics?!
Or gaining personal satisfaction by providing goods and services that are genuinely of use to another human being?
Russ Andrews is an enterprising businessman intelligent enough to design, manufacture and sell some rather good hi-fi products, albeit at very high prices. Therefore is it necessary for such a person to make a living by sinking to this level?[/quote]
He sank a long time ago.
Or gaining personal satisfaction by providing goods and services that are genuinely of use to another human being?
Russ Andrews is an enterprising businessman intelligent enough to design, manufacture and sell some rather good hi-fi products, albeit at very high prices. Therefore is it necessary for such a person to make a living by sinking to this level?[/quote]
He sank a long time ago.
fatboyslimfast
Well-known member
- Jan 10, 2008
- 158
- 0
- 18,590
Again, I'm with DM in that I have a healthy scepticism of snakeoil, but putting my generous hat on, it could be that RA genuinely believes that he hears a worthwhile difference and therefore is selling them with a clear conscience..
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