Retro Rip-off ?

[Geoff P.]

Call me an old sceptic, but do I detect a recent trend for manufacturers to label new products with a retro tag, then add a zero to the price tag ? !!!
I'm sure these items ( be they speakers, amps or whatever ) will show some improvement in performance over the original model, but can they ever justify these sky-high prices for what are mid-range products at best ?
At this rate, the only people able to afford this stuff will be old wrinklies like me, and we'll not need it because our deteriorating hearing doesn't justify it !!!
Rant over.
GP

 

[Symples]

I have been thinking the same thing.
Double the price and add a zero!

Tannoy continues its re-emergence with a 'Super Gold' Sixties throwback

Passive dual concentric driver speakers designed in the UK with a modern-retro look

www.whathifi.com

 

[Al ears]

One assumes that someone must be interested in these new retro items and are actually purchasing them otherwise manufacturers wouldn't keep producing them.
That said I have no idea why and only one speaker has my attention and that's the new Epos 14s but I am unlikely to ever afford a pair.

 

[Gray]

One assumes that someone must be interested in these new retro items and are actually purchasing them otherwise manufacturers wouldn't keep producing them.

That's for sure.

I was reading a post on another forum where someone asked a dealer how he was doing.
According to him, thanks to the cost of living crisis causing people to cut back, sales of budget products have really suffered.

Whereas sales of high priced items (apparently) are selling at least as well as ever.
For many there is not (and never will be) any financial crisis - if they fancy a pair of those Epos speakers, they'll have them.

That probably explains the recent glut of these new 'classic' products.

 

[Dom]

Its called "vintage-inspired" hi-fi. Modern technology combined with vintage looks.

The look can can evoke feelings of nostalgia.

Personally I hate it and it won't appeal to everyone but I guess there will be an audience for it that will cough up the price tag.

​

 

[Al ears]

These Tannoys look dreadful and I often wonder which demographic is actually buying these.

They can't sell many, so I think the asking price is to cover the small production runs and high costs.

Dreadful.

Also, they may have decent sound quality (although I've never heard a pair of Harbeth speakers) but I can't work out why Alan Shaw can't make great sounding speakers, make them look really modern and hide the flipping screws mate!

This old fashioned 'screws out' harking back to a 1960s BBC speaker look, really bothers me.

It has no influence on the sound and there is no need for this untidy 'Blue Peter' aesthetic.

There must be modern materials and building methods, that are cheaper than those Harbeth use and would rival the sound, but give a more modern look.

I'm sticking my neck out on here, but if the Harbeth crossovers and drivers were in my QA 3030i, then I think they would sound as good. My cheapo speakers are tidy and inert , with no real colouration.

Look at the KEF R3 meta, especially in blue with the matching stands.

These are beautiful examples of staggering build quality, with pleasing and modern aesthetics.

I also have never heard the KEFs, but at £2600 with the stands, they are much cheaper than entry level Harbeths and I bet they sound as good.

The revisited Mission 700 still has that old 700 look, but I think it's really neat and modern looking.

Dreadful or not some people think this is what it should be, how else do you explain them still buying Klipsch speakers and valve amps....?
Unfortunately most of these new retro designs are not well suited to modern UK room sizes.

 

[Gray]

I'd rather spend £8,498 on a new cartridge....that looks like a block of cheese

Koetsu Coralstone Cartridge

While unmistakably a 'Koetsu', this Coral stone-cloaked MC demonstrates that every one of the brand's mineral/stone-bodied pick-ups brings its own personality to the party At the high-end of the hi-fi industry, there are companies that, while well-known to the audiophile cognoscenti, still...

www.hifinews.com

 

[podknocker]

Dreadful or not some people think this is what it should be, how else do you explain them still buying Klipsch speakers and valve amps....?
Unfortunately most of these new retro designs are not well suited to modern UK room sizes.

Dreadful or not some people think this is what it should be, how else do you explain them still buying Klipsch speakers and valve amps....?
Unfortunately most of these new retro designs are not well suited to modern UK room sizes.

I think that's true. Most UK living rooms are a modest size and not suited to these Tannoys.

I suppose we all have different tastes, but some stuff is outrageous and would look out of place in most settings.

You mention valve amps. John Darko recently reviewed the PrimaLuna EVO 400 valve amp.

I think I could live with one, if I could afford the energy bill, or use it as a heater.

The tubes have a 90 day warranty, so not a low maintenance design.

It's old fashioned and retro technology, but they sound amazing apparently.

 

[WayneKerr]

Dreadful or not some people think this is what it should be, how else do you explain them still buying Klipsch speakers and valve amps....?
Unfortunately most of these new retro designs are not well suited to modern UK room sizes.

Would have liked to respond to Pods actual post which you replied to Al but it seems to have disappeared?

Oh what the hell. Harbeth aren't for everyone but why do people get so hung-up on visible screw heads when the speakers are designed to work best with the grilles in place, and the veneer finish is second to none. Sure there's visible screws on the back but who looks at the back of a speaker! My little Harbs are the best sounding speaker I've ever heard in my lounge as they work brilliantly with my far from ideal placement issues. For me it's not eye-candy aesthetics it's the ear-candy sound the speakers create that seals the deal for me every time.

Never heard QA speakers so can't comment but if they've got ports then that would be a non-starter for me now, having heard how good a sealed box design works in my room. If you can find me a cheap pair of aesthetically pleasing sealed box speakers then I'd be prepared to give it a try.... however, I would wager they will not sound anywhere near as good as the Harbeth's.

Harb crossovers and cones mounted in QA cabinets... I doubt it would work, aesthetically pleasing maybe... ear-candy? Doubt it very much, the cabinet designs are too different.

 

[Dom]

Harbeth aren't for everyone but why do people get so hung-up on visible screw heads when the speakers are designed to work best with the grilles in place, and the veneer finish is second to none.

In response Doug, its because they cost thousands of pounds and the least Harbeth could do is hide the flippin screws heads.

But I'm not going to get hung up about either since it wouldn't put me off buying some if I had the cash to do so.

I personally don't mind seeing screw heads on speakers, I think it gives the speaker a hand built look.

My two sents.

 

[roaduck]

Call me an old sceptic, but do I detect a recent trend for manufacturers to label new products with a retro tag, then add a zero to the price tag ? !!!
I'm sure these items ( be they speakers, amps or whatever ) will show some improvement in performance over the original model, but can they ever justify these sky-high prices for what are mid-range products at best ?
At this rate, the only people able to afford this stuff will be old wrinklies like me, and we'll not need it because our deteriorating hearing doesn't justify it !!!
Rant over.
GP

Yep Geoff P I totally concur mate - repackaged - oldest trick in the book.
I used to flog really serious kit in the nineties so I know the score - haha !

Recently my neighbour wanted to play some old cassettes from the 1980`s and I didn`t want to plug a battery walkman into my stereo so I bought...

Don`t laugh too much...

A Sony TC-161 - 2 head top loader from....
erm...1971...cough.

Only £79 hand delivered from Winsford, Cheshire to me in South Manchester.

Sounds rock solid after a go with an allsop 3 head cleaner - it is closed loop - dual capstan and weighs miles more than my late nineties Technics RS-AZ7 3-header at 14 lbs.
Not too hissy even without dolby B because the preamp on the deck isn`t a total dog.Plus it doesn`t take all week to rewind like a personal stereo - so that`s a bonus.
Last night my neighbour put a Nolans cassette on and I was transported to a tiny village near Wetherby called Kirk Deighton in West Yorkshire - when I was 14.

Talk about reminiscing...

I think the upstairs stereo needs more than a hoover...oh dear...nevermind

 

[12th Monkey]

Its called "vintage-inspired" hi-fi. Modern technology combined with vintage looks.

There's a similar thing going on with cars - 'restomod', as it seems to be called (restored/modified). Versions of older cars that have been thoroughly re-engineered, and the prices are eye-watering. Prodrive, which ran rally cars for Subaru back in the day) is doing a new Impreza, apparently brilliant to drive and properly fast...but it's over half a million quid and sold out already. Make of that what you will...

 

[daveh75]

There's a similar thing going on with cars - 'restomod', as it seems to be called (restored/modified). Versions of older cars that have been thoroughly re-engineered, and the prices are eye-watering. Prodrive, which ran rally cars for Subaru back in the day) is doing a new Impreza, apparently brilliant to drive and properly fast...but it's over half a million quid and sold out already. Make of that what you will...

Not really the same. Restomods are essentially handbuilt, in very small volume cars.

Motorsport Tools in Wales, specializes in MK1 and MK2 Escorts (though they're not allowed to call them that) and will build you one using brand new heritage shells, ranging from fast road/tourer upto fully prepared Group 4 Rally spec.

They start at about 80K which I don't think is unreasonable given the amount of development, engineering and labour that goes into them.

They've just started doing Metro 6R4s too.

I'll be having one of each if my lottery numbers come up 🤞

 

[Dom]

I envision that manufacturers gather around a table to discuss the creation of the next groundbreaking product.

Considering the vast diversity of 8 billion people with their unique cultures and preferences, all it takes is to captivate the imagination of a relatively small group, and the product is bound for success.

 

[12th Monkey]

Not really the same. Restomods are essentially handbuilt, in very small volume cars.

I did say similar, not the same - it's a hankering after stuff from the past but with modern engineering, and there are clearly enough with the wherewithal not to be put off by the prices.

 

[Kutusov]

If I had the money, I would certainly buy this: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/04/t...lancia-legend-restomod-in-a-class-of-its-own/

I actually came here today for information on a couple of retro speakers so I though it was funny this was the first thread I saw! I think many of these retro stuff costs what they cost because they are made in small numbers, or not in Asian and both make things automatically pretty extensive.

And as with restomods, they give you something vintage but underneath they have modern concepts and materials. I personally am starting to show my age because I think things were better back then. Maybe not technically but they had a soul. I had a Peugeot 106 rally MkII back when and I know a Tesla is galaxies ahead... but I drove one several times and I still much rather have the Pug back, with its tinny interior, 0 luxuries and much slower performance. Could be I want to get back to an older world.

All of this to say I think there's certainly a market but it's a small one and things bet expensive because of that. And it's take it or leave it, us that really want to get into those retro things will have to pay the price tag because it's bot like there is an option. And that makes a market too, I guess. The important thing is that there is a choice for everybody! But choices always come with a price Have a good one!!!

 

[nopiano]

I'd rather spend £8,498 on a new cartridge....that looks like a block of cheese

Koetsu Coralstone Cartridge

While unmistakably a 'Koetsu', this Coral stone-cloaked MC demonstrates that every one of the brand's mineral/stone-bodied pick-ups brings its own personality to the party At the high-end of the hi-fi industry, there are companies that, while well-known to the audiophile cognoscenti, still...

www.hifinews.com

We might need to be quick, because I think I read that the remaining descendant of the founder died recently. That may mean there’s nobody alive to hand build these in the Koetsu tradition.

 

[nopiano]

Would have liked to respond to Pods actual post which you replied to Al but it seems to have disappeared?

Oh what the hell. Harbeth aren't for everyone but why do people get so hung-up on visible screw heads when the speakers are designed to work best with the grilles in place, and the veneer finish is second to none. Sure there's visible screws on the back but who looks at the back of a speaker! My little Harbs are the best sounding speaker I've ever heard in my lounge as they work brilliantly with my far from ideal placement issues. For me it's not eye-candy aesthetics it's the ear-candy sound the speakers create that seals the deal for me every time.

Never heard QA speakers so can't comment but if they've got ports then that would be a non-starter for me now, having heard how good a sealed box design works in my room. If you can find me a cheap pair of aesthetically pleasing sealed box speakers then I'd be prepared to give it a try.... however, I would wager they will not sound anywhere near as good as the Harbeth's.

Harb crossovers and cones mounted in QA cabinets... I doubt it would work, aesthetically pleasing maybe... ear-candy? Doubt it very much, the cabinet designs are too different.

I much prefer to see screw heads as then you can check them for tightness every so often. Fortunately my Sonus faber and ATCs have them, but the newer Sf models have them covered.

 

[podknocker]

I don't know why any modern speaker needs to look like it's from the 60s.

My QA3030i look amazing on their matching white stands and are very neat and tidy.

There are no screws or visible joins and they have a nice solid sound, with no distortion.

There's still demand for retro and classic looking speakers, but I think it's more expensive now, making them look retro, when modern cabinet production techniques can avoid the old fashioned look.

It must be more expensive making a Harbeth speaker, than one from KEF or B&W, with the same spec.

 

[nopiano]

I don't know why any modern speaker needs to look like it's from the 60s.

My QA3030i look amazing on their matching white stands and are very neat and tidy.

There are no screws or joins visible and have a nice solid sound, with no distortion.

There's still demand for retro and classic looking speakers, but I think it's more expensive now, making them look retro, when modern cabinet production techniques can avoid the old fashioned look.

It must be more expensive making a Harbeth speaker, than one from KEF or B&W, with the same spec.

100% agree with your last point. However they are completely different business models. I wrote the following recently comparing ATC to mass production, and you can substitute Harbeth as it applies similarly.

”The large brands we know well, like Monitor Audio, Wharfedale, B&W and the like build their popular ranges in bulk. Or more accurately they commission x thousands at a time. Mostly from the PRC.

They determine in advance the split between Model 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. You know how it goes - two stand mounts, two floorstanders and a centre speaker for AV. After three years, say, they are running low of the best seller, so they begin the whole process again, update the colours and styling, and commission a new batch - meanwhile the unsold ones are 35% off at Richer Sounds and Peter Tyson. The new versions may be slightly improved, and at a higher price, and look more trendy.

ATC however make every driver in-house, as and when they need them. Some cabinets are bought in - the Entry series in particular I believe - but the insides aren’t mass produced but made individually, reducing stock levels. Basically they’re made to order, with I guess a small inventory of popular versions, like cherry and black Entry series.

They don’t have to buy another umpteen thousand at once and ship them from a Chinese factory, then warehouse them. Have you seen how modest their premises are?

So, I believe it’s a totally different business model, hence the lack of need to release new versions every three or four years. As and when there’s a real advance, they introduce it.“

 

[podknocker]

Harbeth and Spendor make their drivers and crossovers inhouse, so that does increase the cost, but the prices are incredible.

I know production runs are smaller than the cheaper brands, but the profit margins must be high at Harbeth and Spendor.

It's been said before and it's still true that they don't need to change their business model, while order books are full.

I still think however, that it's cheaper to make a speaker look modern, than something resembling a 1960s BBC monitor.

The Mission 770 story takes in the BBC, Spendor and the drive to do better

We listen to the iconic Mission 770 speakers, both old and new – and 45 years on, the '80s model still impresses

www.whathifi.com

The 'new' 770 is made in the UK and production costs are very high, but they've decided to remove the need for screws.

Modern speakers can sound good and look good. I would never have a pair of the original 770s.

 

[WayneKerr]

There's only one way to find out if these small expensive ugly speakers are worth it... go and have a listen and let your ears decide, not your eyes

As I've said they are not for everyone but if you like what you hear then bide your time and pounce. I got mine £500 off as they were on run-out. Used market is always a good risk as they are generally well cared for.

Edit: I will add that the P3's replaced a pair of PMC DB1 Gold's, it was close but the P3's won out in almost every area. If I was forced to pay full RRP for them then it may have been a different story.

 

[davidf]

The most ridiculous one is the Naim Nait 50. This was about £300 early 90s, and now they’re asking £2700! I appreciate material have gone up, but it’s not like they’ve had to design anything from scratch or anything - the extremely simple design already exists! At least MF’s A1, which was a similar price to the Nait, is far more sensible at £1500 and about what I’d expect it to be. I can only think that some manufacturers know there’s a very small market for some of these products, so bump up the price to counteract low sales.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

The most ridiculous one is the Naim Nait 50. This was about £300 early 90s, and now they’re asking £2700! I appreciate material have gone up, but it’s not like they’ve had to design anything from scratch or anything - the extremely simple design already exists! At least MF’s A1, which was a similar price to the Nait, is far more sensible at £1500 and about what I’d expect it to be. I can only think that some manufacturers know there’s a very small market for some of these products, so bump up the price to counteract low sales.

EXACTLY.

 

[plastic penguin]

That's for sure.

I was reading a post on another forum where someone asked a dealer how he was doing.
According to him, thanks to the cost of living crisis causing people to cut back, sales of budget products have really suffered.

Whereas sales of high priced items (apparently) are selling at least as well as ever.
For many there is not (and never will be) any financial crisis - if they fancy a pair of those Epos speakers, they'll have them.

That probably explains the recent glut of these new 'classic' products.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but that's a load of salesman BS. I should know as I was in sales for over 30 years.

Most of these more recent retro-looking speakers are produced by one organisation: IAG.