An interesting and opposing speaker choice to make.

[stevebrock]

I cant help thinking bu that Icon Audio amp is wasted with a CD player - only my opinion so ignore and dont take it personally.

And yes get a decent TT

 

[SteveR750]

Thanks for the great write up.

If you found the SHL5 too neutral I don't think ATC would suit your taste.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

I thought the same, though "too neutral" is something of a paradox. Either way, if you're a fan of valve amp bloom you probably won't like the neutral monitor presentation style,.

 

[CnoEvil]

My advice is, Don't Compromise.

When you hear the right pair of speakers, you will know it.

I still think the speakers for your genre of music will come from the sort of brands that I have listed...and maybe others like J M Reynaud, GamuT, Spendor Classics, Q Acoustic Concept 40s, Audio Physic and possibly Icon Audio's own speakers.

EDIT. I have read great things about JM Reynaud (French), but have never heard them as they are not stocked here...maybe worth seeking them out.

 

[FennerMachine]

I found Icon Audio ST40 with my Quad 21L2 speakers sounded great.
Maybe try some Quad 23L or 25L.
Your ST60 should work well with them.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Been wanting to post this all day! Guy bought some PM1's brand new that weekend for a demo on one of my amps. All I can say is they look and seem beautifully finished. Enough said. My gut instinct is investigate DocG insight.

 

[RLCCM]

I cant help thinking bu that Icon Audio amp is wasted with a CD player - only my opinion so ignore and dont take it personally.

And yes get a decent TT

You maybe right but a TT is a whole extra investment, not for the quipment, but for the discs! I grew up with CD's and have hundreds of them, I cant instantly switch to Vinyl, though perhaps at some point I will begin collecting.

 

[RLCCM]

Thanks for the great write up.

If you found the SHL5 too neutral I don't think ATC would suit your taste.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

Noted thanks Mac. I Have heard a pair of ATC's but as I think I said earlier it was after a long test of some triangles and I was too fatigued to concentrate. I couldnt make head or tale of them then.

 

[RLCCM]

Thanks for the great write up.

If you found the SHL5 too neutral I don't think ATC would suit your taste.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

Hah, perhaps it is but then, what I really man is politeness and perfection without a bit of grit. It's like getting professional session musicians to play real big band swing. More often than not, they play it technically perfectly - in tune, in time, exactly as the score put in front of them is writen - and that's exactly the problem. A score is only an approximation written on paper. The music is only really good when musicians who really know how to swing are playing - the musicians who add real feel and soul to it. The speakers that grab the listenner and engage them are in my opinion the best. The Focals, CM9's and Diamond's today didn't quite do this despite being technically better than the PM1 in many areas.

Recordings are only so good, especially old ones. They are an approximation of the real thing on that day, but cant contain everything. So it's primarily up to the Amp and Speakers to interpret what the recording and CD player bring to them, and its exactly why many people coming back to Vinyl every time - for the added colour or style of interpretation that media gives. I'm not saying i want all that colour, most of these CDs already have it in them, but I do want the soul - and for many people, Vinyl has that in spades compared to a CD. In the same way a valve amp has that in spades compared to an electronic one (sorry I just prefer that to SS, it seems more apt to describe what you get out of most of them)!

I began to quite like the Harbeth's after some time listenning - and gave them a lot of consideration indeed, but I need to leave the showroom grinning from ear to ear and with a spring in my step from what I've just heard. The SHL5+ didn't do that for me (and dare I say it, they weren't as open as I expected). It's only happened 3 times in fact: The first time I heard a valve amp (attached to Davis speakers - a small french brand, that I think work well with valves, and I've been half tempted to re-audition), the first time I heard the autograph mini, and a few nights ago at a very brief listen to the PM1 on the Wynton Marsalis CD, though the PM1 has now been more thoroughly tested!

 

[FennerMachine]

Don't worry about a turntable.
Great if you already have a vinyl collection but if you have lots of CD's then stick with them.
Especially with the music you listen to.
Older recording unlikely to be overly remastered and newer music should be well mastered with good dynamics which plays to the stregths of CD's.

 

[RLCCM]

So this is the extended and very daunting list of speaker "Brands", you are all recommending to check. I will point out, most of these I have never seen near me, and some I've never even heard of, so think many are unlikely, but I shall try, though I am starting to wonder if this will lead me on another even bigger 2 year long odyssey that will only make me want to hear more (read spend more!):

ATC 11 and 19
Tannoy DC8's and DC10T's
Monitor Audio GX/PL
any Horn speakers
Audionote
Opera
Diapason
PMC twent.22
Proac D2
EB Acoustics EB2
JM Reynaud
Q Acoustics Concept 40's
Icon Audio
Audio Physics
Spendor classics (actually I have heard some aged spendors at an alladins cave of a store called Audio Gold in London, not bad but didnt quite do it for me, though, it's not at all a good demo room).
Dynaudio Focus 160
Quad 23L or 25L

and last but not least, Kelloggs Special K's... I think I have that right, no wait.......... its Russell "Brands".
(sorry DocG... I had to).

 

[FennerMachine]

You're spending around £1500, potentially a lot more, take your time.
Try all the speakers you listed that you can easily demo.
It will be fun and you will be sure you're buying the right ones.
I have spent over 2 years trying various amps and speakers, owned a few, but glad I've waited before spending lots.
I'm glad I have as I now know I could have made some expensive mistakes.

 

[Andrewjvt]

BIG UPDATE.enhanced in capital letters for no reason but for effect. Like some speakers...

Right so i went for a longer demo today of the PM1, and compared them to several other speakers. First things first, this time I was somewhat more awake and critical, and the speakers didn't jump out at me like they did a few days ago. Clarity wasn't quite as good as I remembered, and the bass was in places a let-down, but I still like them for their ability to engage, and the tonal balance/mid-range cohesion and punch that suits the swing and jazz sound. But here's the full report and comparisons:

Firstly, I stuck them on against a pair of CM9's as probably the closest equivalent floorstander. The single PM1 driver is obviously better than any of the drivers in the CM9. The treble and solo's came out better and the cohesion of the midrange and punch during some Ellington big band blasting was simply more exciting from the PM1, the CM9 being good but a touch on the polite side for my taste here (a real big band blast should be anything but polite sounding). The CM9 however perhaps is better for overall balance - where a classical orchestra was playing, the added bass driver helped the full orchestral sound, the PM1 falling a touch flat in the cello's and basses. The PM1 bass, whilst being good for it's speaker size, is merely adequate compared to larger speakers. That said, I had expected a much broader soundstage and experience from the floorstander, and didn't get it. The PM1 stood up vey well against the floorstander for breadth and soundstage, only being beaten in the bass. The PM1 therefore won out for clarity, and feel.

Then was plugged in the Focal Aria 9 series floorstander at the suggestion of one of the assistants (926 or 936 i think). Big they were... but instantly fell flat on their face on the same Big Band recording compared to the PM1. It was all about overly bright treble and bass, and lacking midrange (despite being the "much less bright and aggressive new series"). Where the Focal's won was when putting on a Parov Stellar disc. Here they were great (obviously, being designed with the treble and bass clarity and size that this electro music depends on), so clearly Focals still suit modern/sythesized music. For Parov Stelar, the PM1 pretty much fell flat on its face, neither having the sharpness of bass or bright treble that electro-music wants. Victory No. 2 for the PM1, for Jazz anyway.

Next up, they plugged in some 805 Diamonds. Here I started with some JJ Johnson trombone quartet, to test the lower-mid's (it's a brilliant way infact to test mids and lower mids - JJ's broadway - not to mention a great album!). Firstly, this was the first time the PM1's really underwhelmed me, the trombones when playing in quartet just didnt have the tonal strength I was looking for, and lacked a bit of punch, no doubt just on that verge of bass level where the PM1 begins to struggle. JJ's solo on top still came out with gusto and realism however. The Diamonds won out on this track, it could handle the bass better, and so the trombone quartet backing JJ came with the strength and fullness I hoped for.I asked the price... they were on clearance offer too! I said "great! How much are they?". It turned out they were nearly twice the cost including stands. Ouch.So for good measure I stuck on the live and very intimate Wynton Marsalis recording made in a tiny new york theatre (live at the House of Tribes - thoroughly recommended) - that is gritty, and real. Now, the Diamonds beat the PM1's for clarity, and their bass is obviously better, more controlled, a touch larger and with better tone than of the PM1, much as with the JJ Johnson disc. BUT, the diamonds are more of an all-round speaker, with a more neutral balance across the board. On this occasion it suffered from just that. Where the PM1's gave a gritty and engaging performance, with great cohesion of the whole quintet, the Diamonds were again too polite, harking back to the CM9 in delivery, the instruments perhaps more easily picked apart from one another with polite clarity, but therefore sounding less real and less gritty. The PM1 here again excelled, the horns sung out as if I could feel them right infront of me, and in a small theatre where the whole driving rythm section tends to overpower each other in a wild, but brilliant crash of sound, so it did here. I was in that theatre, if only for a few moments. The Diamonds were clearer, better, balanced... but I wasnt in the theatre. And for this reason considering the dramatic cost difference, again a victory for the PM1, if a rather specific and somewhat marginal victory, which I'm not sure the assistant agreed with (but then, I'm the musician, and understand the music more than he does - thats for certain!). Certainly at any rate the Diamonds showed that the PM1's are good value.?

This is where the assistants started joking that I need nothing short of KEF blades to be happy.

So pushing the Diamonds aside, I put in my faithful and trusted Benny Goodman CD. And asked them (for the fourth time) to plug in some KEF R300's as that's what I have currently (and bought from them a couple of years ago). Yet another very confused look, and the guy starts pulling out some Q900's... err no... R300... R... R...   "oh Air300, ah, oui, pas probleme"Given that the R300 is about half the price usually of the PM1, i thought they did pretty well. I like the balance of the R300, even though its not the best controlled, and can become tiring in my room at times. Yes the PM1 sounded a bit clearer and cleaner and have better overall control, but the tonal balance is not a hundred miles apart, the PM1 was better, but not by twice.

And therein lies the problem, the PM1 does have just a few too many faults and are quite music specific, for all that is absolutely great about them. Compared to the R300's i'm not convinced they are as big an upgrade as I was hoping for, yet still for this price tag they outperformed all else in that shop with my amp and my music. But I'm still unconvinced. I'm too much a perfectionist. Another issue that became more apparent as the testing went on is that with a very low sensitivity (84dB i believe) they do take quite a bit of extra driving and a touch of extra volume to get them really singing. My Amp can handle it, but it's not as ideal.?

Did I buy them? No. I'm going to wait it out and try to hear some of the Prestige series somewhere (im travelling to New York next week so maybe I'll have a chance there), or some of the others suggested. If nothing else really appears , then I might pull the trigger on the PM1's, but not today.

Hope you enjoyed the read! ?

 ?

 

Judging from your going back to the r300 and kinda liking them would you not be better looking at kef reference 1 (they look like r 300) but much better. Now this may be counter productive as the amp needs more current than the r series so may be pointless but just a thought as your very specific music tastes may be speaker dependant then find a suitable amp. Sorry if this has not helped though as you may not be flexible on the amp.

 

[RLCCM]

Am pretty sure the Amp will maange, its a beast as valves go, and have to say those refernce speakers look great! But damn they are expensive. Unless there's some heavily reduced ones out there, it will be well out of my price range. Nothing against Kef at all - I like them for my cinema setup (I have R series and eggs) though didnt love their floorstanders. If i can get my hands on a cheap set pf references i'll certainly give them a try

 

[gowiththeflow]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

 

[SteveR750]

Thanks for the great write up.

If you found the SHL5 too neutral I don't think ATC would suit your taste.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

Hah, perhaps it is but then, what I really man is politeness and perfection without a bit of grit. It's like getting professional session musicians to play real big band swing. More often than not, they play it technically perfectly - in tune, in time, exactly as the score put in front of them is writen - and that's exactly the problem. A score is only an approximation written on paper. The music is only really good when musicians who really know how to swing are playing - the musicians who add real feel and soul to it. The speakers that grab the listenner and engage them are in my opinion the best. The Focals, CM9's and Diamond's today didn't quite do this despite being technically better than the PM1 in many areas.

Recordings are only so good, especially old ones. They are an approximation of the real thing on that day, but cant contain everything. So it's primarily up to the Amp and Speakers to interpret what the recording and CD player bring to them, and its exactly why many people coming back to Vinyl every time - for the added colour or style of interpretation that media gives. I'm not saying i want all that colour, most of these CDs already have it in them, but I do want the soul - and for many people, Vinyl has that in spades compared to a CD.

If the system is good you won't hear it. Vinyl is no better than digital, I loved my LP12 and it's Ittok, but frankly my laptop just sends the stuff that the recording engineer made without any comforting fluff. The ATC interpretation is just the same, so if you like your photographs with filtered effects look elsewhere. If you want to know how a musician sounded when he rolled into the studio, then select camera neutral. Once you know your preferred colour temperature, then you can decide what sonic nuances you'd like to imbibe which will take you down one route, or the other.

 

[Al ears]

Well I originate from London and visit there quite regularly, so its not unheard of that I transport something over, I'm a known british bacon and sausages smuggler. though its a bit tougher with speakers!

You'll need a large suitcase

Seriously if you are in the States and don't mind floorstanders then do try to seek out a second-hand pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios, they are what I currently run, they are brilliant and operate quite nicely with my 25 watt valve hybrid amplification. Have a quick Google to see reviews ( and believe them )

 

[Al ears]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

Sonus Faber were one of the very first speakers I tried.. before I had any idea about speakers. Instantly disliked them! Never looked again!

They have become more mainstream with their more recent offerings, don't dismiss without another audition

 

[RLCCM]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

Sonus Faber were one of the very first speakers I tried.. before I had any idea about speakers. Instantly disliked them! Never looked again! and therefore am now unlikely to get over my prejudice against them

 

[DocG]

and last but not least, Kelloggs Special K's... I think I have that right, no wait.......... its Russell "Brands".(sorry DocG... I had to).

Well, I think they're Special, you've got that right indeed! *blum3*

 

[CnoEvil]

ATC 11 and 19Tannoy DC8's and DC10T'sMonitor Audio GX/PLany Horn speakersAudionoteOperaDiapasonPMC twent.22Proac D2EB Acoustics EB2JM ReynaudQ Acoustics Concept 40'sIcon AudioAudio Physics

You left GamuT off your list, which might give you the "musicality with bite" that you're looking for.

I came to the same conclusion as you regarding Focal and Triangle. I think I understand what you're after, as I had a similar brief. I like mixing Class A / Valves with speakers that have a little bite, which stop the music becoming too warm and dark, by injecting life and excitement into it.

IMO. Putting some of the speakers in order of bite might look like this :

Spendor Classic -> Harbeth -> Audio Note -> Opera -> Diapason -> Proac -> GamuT -> PMC -> Focal -> Triangle.

 

[drummerman]

I would certainly try some ATC's, both 11 and 19.

Your amplifier is powerful enough.

Don't Icon make speakers too?

 

[FennerMachine]

Icon Audio do make speakers.
Designed for valves and not expensive.

 

[Esra]

I would try again Kef LS 50 with 1 or 2 Rel subwoofers like Rel T-Zero and ad an gutsy amp fitting the Ls50 like Audiolab 8200MB or NAD M22 connected to your valve amp if you want a noticeable upgrade from your Kef R300,as you have a pretty good base.Maybe I would start by just adding a NAD M22 (even if it is not in your budget) and see what changes,as this is the most easiest thing to do before carrying other speakers to your home.You would hear the benefits of a capable amp,which could change your mind now only concentrating on other speakers.

Don´t count out MA up from Silver Range.MA Silver sound wonderfull with valves .Could be a very nice involving sound with your valve and would also sound noticeable different as with your R300.

If you are around Geneva,digistore and avf in switzerland are good places to demo as they offer a broad range.

Kef R-Series work very well in less furnitured and "hard" places,that´s what you call wooly in your beginning post.But it could be just right in your place,they don´t sound very convincing at the shop and sound wooly imo. too especially combined with the usual lesser amps at their price range or a valve which does not combine well .Most other speakers will sound noticeable brighter/crisper than you are used to now.Always demo your favourites at home,as it does sound often completely different to the demo at the shop,which seldom represents your home.

 

[peterpan]

Epos K2/K3? Tannoy XT6F/8F? MA Silver are bright. Like Focal.

 

[CnoEvil]

I would try again Kef LS 50 with 1 or 2 Rel subwoofers

I very nearly posted something similar, though I have no experience of those Rel Subs.

The OP has a very finely tuned ear, so the Sub/s would need to be very well integrated and preferably have EQ eg. Paradigm Seismic 110 or SPL / DD range from Velodyne.

IME. The scale and punch you get from the LS50s can greatly depend on the stands that they are on. They need heavy/stable stands that are filled.

Even though my main speakers are Ref 205/2s, I still get enough scale from the little Kefs to make them hugely enjoyable.