An interesting and opposing speaker choice to make.

[CnoEvil]

If everything you try is, "Good, but no cigar", then IMO you should look to change your source, which can have a more profound effect than you you might imagine.

 

[RLCCM]

I would try again Kef LS 50 with 1 or 2 Rel subwoofers like Rel T-Zero and ad an gutsy amp fitting the Ls50 like Audiolab 8200MB or NAD M22 connected to your valve amp if you want a noticeable upgrade from your Kef R300,as you have a pretty good base.Maybe I would start by just adding a NAD M22 (even if it is not in your budget) and see what changes,as this is the most easiest thing to do before carrying other speakers to your home.You would hear the benefits of a capable amp,which could change your mind now only concentrating on other speakers.

Don´t count out MA up from Silver Range.MA Silver sound wonderfull with valves .Could be a very nice involving sound with your valve and would also sound noticeable different as with your R300.

If you are around Geneva,digistore and avf in switzerland are good places to demo as they offer a broad range.

Kef R-Series work very well in less furnitured and "hard" places,that´s what you call wooly in your beginning post.But it could be just right in your place,they don´t sound very convincing at the shop and sound wooly imo. too especially combined with the usual lesser amps at their price range or a valve which does not combine well .Most other speakers will sound noticeable brighter/crisper than you are used to now.Always demo your favourites at home,as it does sound often completely different to the demo at the shop,which seldom represents your home.

Hi Esra thanks for your post. I have quite a lot to say on what you've said here, in some places I agree, and some I disagree.

Firstly, I spent rather a long time picking the amp I have. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Icon Audio, but the Stereo 60 is considered by most, to be a very "capable amp". Certainly I think it is (which is why i picked it). It certainly doesn't lack for power despite being a tube amp, and given that when testing it could still stand up and be counted when listenning against a horrendously expensive Macintosh SS amp, I think it does pretty well, also seconded by a sound engineer and past hi-fi shop owner friend locally in Rolle.

I must admit i know very little about pre-amping and how likely it is to improve the sound that significantly, but that it's a whole extra step, cost and confusion that at the moment I don't feel I need as yet, but would more likely explore somewhere in the future once this first system is more complete. Adding now a NAD M22 just to see what changes, is of course quite impossible, exactly because it's not in my budget! So far from my experience here, shops will not be keen to let out some equipment of high value just on a whim - largely because they dont often stock it, and would order it in specifically (and therefore I would have to buy it!).

As per my original post somewhere, I did not originally buy the KEF R300 with the intention of using it as a Hi-Fi speaker, though they have been a quite decent stop-gap, I want to finish the journey I started. I bought them for my completely separate home-cinema system (it's a different room infact). So rather than spending a whole lot to improve the KEF R300's which I bought for their ability to punch out movie effects and to match my older KEF speakers - and not so much for their musical ability, I rather swap the R300, and put them into the home cinema where they belong, next to the R200c that hands-down beats its neighbouring KEF 2005 eggs.

In that same sense, I'm not at all struggling for Bass here and I think you misinterpret some of the coments about the bass earlier of the PM1. I don't particularly need more bass than I currently have, infact I run the R300's bass port half-bunged to control their output a little, as they sound bloated in my room otherwise. As such a subwoofer separate seems to me to be completely the wrong way to go about things for the music that I listen to, not to mention annoying my difficult next door neighbour (which is also why I rarely turn on the sub for my projector).

Additionally, KEF LS50's were one of the first speakers I demo'd after reading rave reviews, incidentally that was at Digistore in Geneva. I wasn't so impressed by them, and so bought R300's instead (on another visit)... which I (and the assistant) believed to be better overall speakers. Not least because it's a god sizd living room, and the R300's can fill it far better than the LS50 could that day. So going this route I think though it may be an interesting experiment, would more likely be a very time-consuming one that doesnt quite see the result i'd wish, and one thing is for certain - as for many people - it's difficult to find time to do much of this testing, which is why it's taken so damn long! I have very few available saturdays (none in the next month), and most shops close before i can get to them on ordinary weekdays. Incidentally the PM1's I have been testing against Focals and B&W's etc... are at Digistore in Geneva. It's a very good shop, particularly for a full range of AV equipment - I also bought my projector there. But I do think they aren't particularly suited to my musical tastes in their stock and expertise.

AVF in Preverenges was also one of the first shops I visited, and I was greeted with a very friendly but well disguised (very swiss) sales pitch. He saw me as a young man who at the time didnt know much about what they were buying, and was ready to throw a few thousand on a hi-fi set-up for show. He started by showing me Sonus Faber's plugged into a midrange SS amp, realising that I wouldn't love them, because I would then be "amazed" by the brightness of the focals he plugged in next. "there you go, this is your perfect system" he said with conviction and a glint in his eye "and costs much less than you thought!".

Great....
Well he had completely misjudged my ears and musical experience. It would have been completely the wrong system for me, and even though I couldnt pnpoint it then, I knew it. I haven't been back, though I could go now as I am MUCH better armed. But I dont think there's much point as they don't stock any other brands not already available at Digistore or the other shops in the region.

Lastly as with my room, I completely agree with you on everything you say here, perhaps the R-series floorstanders will do better here than in the Digistore showroom. That is exactly why I tested the R300 against the PM1 yesterday at digistore, to see how my speakers will compare directly to the PM1 in that room (thus helping me to guage the overall effect once I would get them home). I did ask to take the PM1's home, but in short the answer was "no" (which I can fully respect and understand). I did also take my R300's along with the amp to another shop once, where I heard Martin Logans, modern tannoy's, some other weird and wonderful's, and then the autograph mini which I fell in love with. Perhaps here the Harbeth's will show their worth particularly in my room, but I can't test that and am pretty stuck with demo-ing at the shops, particularly as we get to anything more rare or expensive.

 

[CnoEvil]

Even though I'm a big fan of the R Series Floorstanders, I'm not sure they are the best match with Valve amp. IME. They need a very clean amp that has great bass control, otherwise they can can sound as you have described ie. a little bloated and woolly in the bass.

Valves have many wonderful qualities, but bass grip isn't usually as impressive as a good SS amp.

 

[RLCCM]

What you say here makes sense Cno, to combine a small speaker and a sub would have to have be VERY well integrated. I would be most worried here that the lower-midrange would end up weak in favour of the augmented subwoofer bass, which I would think for much music would work really well. I have reservations though for my tastes, as I don't need more bass than the R300 already provides (but I would like it to be tighter!).

I'm a perfectionist, which is really an annoying thing to be at times! Which is why I went to re-test the PM1. I had remembered them being good when i first heard them a long time ago, and on this new much lower price I went back to give them a fuller audition yesterday. My thinking behind this was that "I will never get perfection in my (diminishing) budget" and this seems to be a very good compromise! I think I wasnt too far off... but I want to hear the Stirlings, and now some of the other suggestions! (new suggestions since, also added to the list!).

So regarding the source, I hadn't thought of that honestly - I use an Audiolab 8200CD. This is the one component that hasn't always been static in my testing, as I havent ever taken it with me, though a few shops have them so occasionally there is one to join in with the testing. The testing I did yesterday was with a significantly more expensive CD player (though I cant remember which right now). It's hard to judge the effect.

I have a feeling though that you are more hinting that I should swap to a digital source, such as a Linn (I've seen you mention them before). I've given it vague thought recently, since amazon brought out their brilliant Amazon Prime Music service, but at this stage still the majority of listenning is on the hundreds of CD's I have! Perhaps a Linn box or some similar device would be something to invest in a year or two time, to sit on top of the CD player... but I want to get the speakers right first!

 

[Infiniteloop]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

Sonus Faber were one of the very first speakers I tried.. before I had any idea about speakers. Instantly disliked them! Never looked again! and therefore am now unlikely to get over my prejudice against them

I'm surprised you don't like Sonus Faber. I'd have thought they would be ideal for your listening preferences. Maybe some 'Old School' Fabers like Cremona Auditor M's, Concerto's, Elector Amator, etc. could work, if you are prepared to go second-hand. I have used various SF's with Valves in the past and they can be a match made in heaven, especially for Jazz.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

Sonus Faber were one of the very first speakers I tried.. before I had any idea about speakers. Instantly disliked them! Never looked again! and therefore am now unlikely to get over my prejudice against them

I'm surprised you don't like Sonus Faber. I'd have thought they would be ideal for your listening preferences. Maybe some 'Old School' Fabers like Cremona Auditor M's, Concerto's, Elector Amator, etc. could work, if you are prepared to go second-hand. I have used various SF's with Valves in the past (and present!) and they can be a match made in heaven, especially for Jazz.

 

[CnoEvil]

You are intuitive....I do like Linn, but would also rate Pathos and Electrocompaniet. I happen to think CDPs (not CDs) are not the way to go.

If you get close to what you want, but there is just that "something" missing, try a different source.

I originally didn't mention going the Sub route for the reasons that you mentioned, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be kept as a possible option.

Having lived with LS50s for a while now, I still remain very impressed with their mixture of talents...and I have read of people being pleasantly surprised at how well they sounded on the end of Valves....but...they will never manage the scale and impact that you will get from the R300s, which sound more like small Floorstanders.

 

[iceman16]

Not mentioned so far, the Sonus Faber Venere range.

Sonus Faber were one of the very first speakers I tried.. before I had any idea about speakers. Instantly disliked them! Never looked again! and therefore am now unlikely to get over my prejudice against them

I'm surprised you don't like Sonus Faber. I'd have thought they would be ideal for your listening preferences. Maybe some 'Old School' Fabers like Cremona Auditor M's, Concerto's, Elector Amator, etc. could work, if you are prepared to go second-hand. I have used various SF's with Valves in the past and they can be a match made in heaven, especially for Jazz.

+1 to Sonus Fabers + Valve amp.

 

[RLCCM]

Whats a CDP?

 

[CnoEvil]

Whats a CDP?

CD Player.

 

[RLCCM]

doh! I actually misread, in that I thought yuo said CDP's (not CD's) ARE the way to go

 

[CnoEvil]

doh! I actually misread, in that I thought yuo said CDP's (not CD's) ARE the way to go

S'Ok...I tend to waffle a lot...and confuse myself at times.

 

[RLCCM]

Anyone know anything about Tannoy GRF Memory TW speakers? Big old looking cabinets... someone is selling a pair about 1hr15 drive away for roughly £1870. Ugly things though I must point out!

Also some DC10T's for the same money a bit nearer

 

[DocG]

... buying second hand? That might get horns in budgetary reach... If you buy wisely, and happen not to like the equipment, you could sell it on at little (or no) loss. Just a thought...

 

[CnoEvil]

The modern Tannoys that I've heard, have had a tightly controlled bass with clean, accurate mids and a treble that can be provoked into forwardness, if incorrectly matched. They would be fine with Valves (IMO) and should sound eminently musical. They have the Dual Concentric arrangement, which is similar to the Kef Uni-Q.

 

[RLCCM]

Just on the whole not sure where to find 2nd hand stuff advertised for where I am, there is a general 2nd hand website, where i found these, but theres not a great deal of stuff being shown generally for Hi-fi.

 

[DocG]

Just on the whole not sure where to find 2nd hand stuff advertised for where I am, there is a general 2nd hand website, where i found these, but theres not a great deal of stuff being shown generally for Hi-fi.

This would be a good place to start!

 

[CnoEvil]

I know there are those that have buying 2nd hand "in the blood" and do it successfully. I avoid it like the plague....unless it's ex-dem, or used from a dealer (where you can hear it, possibly get it's history and negotiate support if it dies shortly after purchase.)

 

[lindsayt]

Speakers don't die. They sometimes need to be fixed. The fixes are usually inexpensive and easy to do.

It's easy to assess if a speaker will need attention in the near future when you go to pick it up by giving it a quick visual and sonic inspection. And most sellers of audio equipment are honest.

I like buying broken speakers. Million yen (when new) 70kgs (or more) speakers that is. Rock bottom prices for top quality gear.

Seems to me, RCCLM will have to make a compromise somewhere. He's not going to get the sound he wants and deserves for his budget by buying new or nearly new from a dealers. He's not likely to have the convenience of a long comparative demo by buying used. He may well be looking at compromises when it comes to size and looks vs sound quality too.

If I lived near Geneva, I'd be looking at German, Swiss, French, Italian ebay. Also check out hi-fi shark.

 

[CnoEvil]

You will defend your position and I will defend mine....and RCCLM will ultimately decide on his.

 

[drummerman]

With the low damping factor of his Icon the OP will need to choose speakers with good inherent acoustic mid/bass driver damping for anything approaching tight bass.

HifiWorlds speaker testing and graphs are a good source to single out suitable candidates..

 

[drummerman]

With the low damping factor of his Icon the OP will need to choose speakers with good inherent acoustic mid/bass driver damping for anything approaching tight bass.

HifiWorlds speaker testing and graphs are a good source to single out suitable candidates..

 

[Esra]

I would try again Kef LS 50 with 1 or 2 Rel subwoofers like Rel T-Zero and ad an gutsy amp fitting the Ls50 like Audiolab 8200MB or NAD M22 connected to your valve amp if you want a noticeable upgrade from your Kef R300,as you have a pretty good base.Maybe I would start by just adding a NAD M22 (even if it is not in your budget) and see what changes,as this is the most easiest thing to do before carrying other speakers to your home.You would hear the benefits of a capable amp,which could change your mind now only concentrating on other speakers.

Don´t count out MA up from Silver Range.MA Silver sound wonderfull with valves .Could be a very nice involving sound with your valve and would also sound noticeable different as with your R300.

If you are around Geneva,digistore and avf in switzerland are good places to demo as they offer a broad range.

Kef R-Series work very well in less furnitured and "hard" places,that´s what you call wooly in your beginning post.But it could be just right in your place,they don´t sound very convincing at the shop and sound wooly imo. too especially combined with the usual lesser amps at their price range or a valve which does not combine well .Most other speakers will sound noticeable brighter/crisper than you are used to now.Always demo your favourites at home,as it does sound often completely different to the demo at the shop,which seldom represents your home.

Hi Esra thanks for your post. I have quite a lot to say on what you've said here, in some places I agree, and some I disagree.

Firstly, I spent rather a long time picking the amp I have. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Icon Audio, but the Stereo 60 is considered by most, to be a very "capable amp". Certainly I think it is (which is why i picked it). It certainly doesn't lack for power despite being a tube amp, and given that when testing it could still stand up and be counted when listenning against a horrendously expensive Macintosh SS amp, I think it does pretty well, also seconded by a sound engineer and past hi-fi shop owner friend locally in Rolle.

I must admit i know very little about pre-amping and how likely it is to improve the sound that significantly, but that it's a whole extra step, cost and confusion that at the moment I don't feel I need as yet, but would more likely explore somewhere in the future once this first system is more complete. Adding now a NAD M22 just to see what changes, is of course quite impossible, exactly because it's not in my budget! So far from my experience here, shops will not be keen to let out some equipment of high value just on a whim - largely because they dont often stock it, and would order it in specifically (and therefore I would have to buy it!).

As per my original post somewhere, I did not originally buy the KEF R300 with the intention of using it as a Hi-Fi speaker, though they have been a quite decent stop-gap, I want to finish the journey I started. I bought them for my completely separate home-cinema system (it's a different room infact). So rather than spending a whole lot to improve the KEF R300's which I bought for their ability to punch out movie effects and to match my older KEF speakers - and not so much for their musical ability, I rather swap the R300, and put them into the home cinema where they belong, next to the R200c that hands-down beats its neighbouring KEF 2005 eggs.

In that same sense, I'm not at all struggling for Bass here and I think you misinterpret some of the coments about the bass earlier of the PM1. I don't particularly need more bass than I currently have, infact I run the R300's bass port half-bunged to control their output a little, as they sound bloated in my room otherwise. As such a subwoofer separate seems to me to be completely the wrong way to go about things for the music that I listen to, not to mention annoying my difficult next door neighbour (which is also why I rarely turn on the sub for my projector).

Additionally, KEF LS50's were one of the first speakers I demo'd after reading rave reviews, incidentally that was at Digistore in Geneva. I wasn't so impressed by them, and so bought R300's instead (on another visit)... which I (and the assistant) believed to be better overall speakers. Not least because it's a god sizd living room, and the R300's can fill it far better than the LS50 could that day. So going this route I think though it may be an interesting experiment, would more likely be a very time-consuming one that doesnt quite see the result i'd wish, and one thing is for certain - as for many people - it's difficult to find time to do much of this testing, which is why it's taken so damn long! I have very few available saturdays (none in the next month), and most shops close before i can get to them on ordinary weekdays. Incidentally the PM1's I have been testing against Focals and B&W's etc... are at Digistore in Geneva. It's a very good shop, particularly for a full range of AV equipment - I also bought my projector there. But I do think they aren't particularly suited to my musical tastes in their stock and expertise.

AVF in Preverenges was also one of the first shops I visited, and I was greeted with a very friendly but well disguised (very swiss) sales pitch. He saw me as a young man who at the time didnt know much about what they were buying, and was ready to throw a few thousand on a hi-fi set-up for show. He started by showing me Sonus Faber's plugged into a midrange SS amp, realising that I wouldn't love them, because I would then be "amazed" by the brightness of the focals he plugged in next. "there you go, this is your perfect system" he said with conviction and a glint in his eye "and costs much less than you thought!".

Great....Well he had completely misjudged my ears and musical experience. It would have been completely the wrong system for me, and even though I couldnt pnpoint it then, I knew it. I haven't been back, though I could go now as I am MUCH better armed. But I dont think there's much point as they don't stock any other brands not already available at Digistore or the other shops in the region.

Lastly as with my room, I completely agree with you on everything you say here, perhaps the R-series floorstanders will do better here than in the Digistore showroom. That is exactly why I tested the R300 against the PM1 yesterday at digistore, to see how my speakers will compare directly to the PM1 in that room (thus helping me to guage the overall effect once I would get them home). I did ask to take the PM1's home, but in short the answer was "no" (which I can fully respect and understand). I did also take my R300's along with the amp to another shop once, where I heard Martin Logans, modern tannoy's, some other weird and wonderful's, and then the autograph mini which I fell in love with. Perhaps here the Harbeth's will show their worth particularly in my room, but I can't test that and am pretty stuck with demo-ing at the shops, particularly as we get to anything more rare or expensive.

You are welcome.I think you misunderstood me,as I did not wanted to say that your valve amp is not capable.But as CNO also said I think R-Series are difficult to match with an valve/hybrid amp,but you are right in that i don´t know your specific amp but sure it is an fine amp with the right speakers.

As you made some points more clear,like you would like to use your R300 in your HT and do not intend to change your amp I think you are on the right way with the PM1 and Harbeths.As I said before you could count MA,Kef LS50 in too.Rel subwoofers are very easy to integrate and sound very clean,especially the smaller ones like the T-Zero and will match speakers like the PM1 and LS50 beautifully so don´t worry about that.Look out for good stands as CNO said,something like Dynaudio stand 6,that´s what i use.Also these little speakers are capable to fill out an listening area up to 35m2 with great scale if you put them min. 2/2,5 meters apart and 0,5 meters from the walls.Just a tip if you consider to take the chance to go with the small standmount speakers.Otherwise i would really consider and try the MA silver 6/8 as floorstands with your amp ex. at digistore.A further step up you could also consider SF Olympica II or Kef Ref-Series,I don´t know your budget,both also available at digistore ex..

I can´t say something about the shops as I don´t know them personally but I know they have a lot of interesting brands.Of course it is sad you could not lend some stuff to try at home,should not be a problem with demo equipment which is already unpacked imo.But you may experienced yourself swiss is not famous for service.Then there is only the way to buy via internet as swiss law allows you to return back within 14 days without giving any reason.Well if this is the way the shops prefer to communicate with their customers....I would not buy stuff which I am uncertain of for a huge amount of money.

Good luck and keep us informed how things go.

 

[RLCCM]

Also one more thing, with the LS50 and small bookshelf speakers, I do entirely hear what people are saying on these, with the right subwoofer they can be an inexpensive way to achieve excellent results, but will it fill a good sized room properly? I dont think LS50's or other small bookshelves can in this case. They might be great in my bedroom, but I have an open-plan apartment, meaning my living room, kitchen and dining area are all one, and measures over 50m2 together, and I have a mezanine above which means there's a large gap in the ceiling to look upwards to the mez, with both a concrete floor jutting out into the main living space and an angled roof above where there's a gap. Not to mention awful tiled floors (that I need to lay some rugs on).

I just believe the LS50's would get lost in the sheer volume of air they would need to fill due to the design of the place. The R300 manages ok, though probably not perfectly, and they are notably larger than LS50's, and PM1's are vaguely similarly sized to the R300 - so actually I'm going to probably be taking a little risk there to some extent if I opted for PM1's.

And just typing that made me want to run a little experiment and check how the R300's play music upstairs (where with a very high angled roof and hard parquet floor, and even fewer furnishings, there's even more air to fill) when plugged into my AVR (a decent Pioneer job). My initial 3 minute test report shows that the Pioneer controls and reigns in the R300 better than the valves do (though that's not saying I prefer the sound), and that probably this may indicate the R-series is better designed for SS than Valves. Also the R300 is a bit lost in the vastness of space up there. I'll do fuller testing tomorrow, to see how lost they are down here, and compare more directly with the Icon Audio.

 

[RLCCM]

Just on the whole not sure where to find 2nd hand stuff advertised for where I am, there is a general 2nd hand website, where i found these, but theres not a great deal of stuff being shown generally for Hi-fi.

This would be a good place to start!

Whoa.... it's like a whole madhouse there! I am going to take a very close look at that one.
There is an inherent problem with Germany of course for me - it's either a very long drive (which I'm unlikely to have time for at best until November, but more likely next year), or requires shipping, which will be either difficult/not possible, expensive and joyous in terms of Swiss customs clearance (and taxes). I'm much closer to France - not that that in itself is necesarily a good thing either!

On the whole I'm not against 2nd Hand stuff at all (I buy 2nd hand cars afterall!), if I can get something really good for cheap, then I think it's well worth it, but with expensive speakers I think they need to be in reach for inspection/test and pick up, or as Cno says, come from a dealer.

As it is, with heavily reduced prices for some new things from certain shops (like the Stirling GR's for €3550 from Annecy in France - already competitive with some of the options I'm seeing 2nd hand for similar), this maybe safer. I did speak to that shop, and he's said if I order, I can have a 14 day return so I said I would try to get a test and we would speak again when I am back from New York (I am going on thursday for 10 days, for my first holiday in well over 2 years!! just a partly working one....) - I like this little shop, it's where I bought my amp and CD player, they are friendly and seem relaxed - and happy to do a deal to make business as is the case on these Stirlings.

As Esra says, the Swiss are not famous for service, actually to be more accurate, I would on the whole say that they are "infamous" for service! The few who say they will be good, are culturally incapable of it.

But yes, I'm very open to good value 2nd hand, if I can find it safely, and ebay does pick up foreign goods, where relevent. As Lindsayt writes, indeed I will have to compromise somewhere, and I just have to get my head around where that compromise will come - the PM1 option was of course listed as a compromise, but a wallet friendly(ish) one. Soundwise, it's good for the money, but It didn't quite get me this time.

So what I will say is this, I'm going to set my budget to be a maximum of or very near to the price of the Stirlings offered in Annecy, that is roughly €3550, but at this price it's got to be really, and I mean really excellent (which is what I'm hoping the Stirlings will be!). I was hoping to test some in NY, but I cant find a hi-fi shop there as yet where i can test them.