Primare pre/power combo

[matt49]

My amp journey continues. (And what a pleasure it's been; in fact I'm having so much fun, I think I may subconsciously be delaying the purchase just so I can go on auditioning.)

Today it was: Primare PRE32 and Primare A34.2 power.

The source was the Primare CD32, and the speakers were KEF Reference 203/2 and KEF R900.

Initial impressions from some classical instrumental music were positive but ... Violin, cello and piano had a lovely rich timbre and impressive dynamics. The piano was exactly where it should have been, but the solo violin wasn't easy to locate: it seemed spread across the soundstage. An artefact of the recording? When I moved on to opera, it became clear that staging wasn't the only issue. Voices seemed a bit reedy and there was no depth to the soundstage. Things did improve a bit in terms of separation when I switched to the KEF R900s (shouldn't that be the ohter way round?), but not enough to make me want to buy. (Or at least not after hearing the Accuphase E350 through Harbeth Super HL5s, which is just an entirely different order of musical experience.)

I moved on to Steel Pulse's 'Handsworth Revolution' and Talk Talk's 'The Colour of Spring'. Tremendous dynamics and a lovely tone to the instruments. If you could look past the staging, this would be a very good system (maybe with other speakers), and for the price I haven't heard a better amp yet. I would have liked to extend the demo beyond 90 mins.

This is the first serious Class D amp I've tried, and it certainly didn't shout 'Class D' at me (whatever that means). It sounded like a very, very good Class AB amp. Class D is very power efficient, so hats off to Primare for showing the way forward.

Anyone out there had experiences with recent Primare amps?

Matt

 

[Macspur]

Hi Matt,

Let me assure you I'm enjoying the journey too and I doubt I'm alone.

As you know, I have never had the pleasure of hearing Primare amps before, so it was good to get your impressions.

Must admit, I would have expected the KEF 203/2 to be better than the R900... will be interesting to see what Cno has to say about that.

Here's looking forward to the next installment.

Mac

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt,

Let me assure you I'm enjoying the journey too and I doubt I'm alone.

As you know, I have never had the pleasure of hearing Primare amps before, so it was good to get your impressions.

Must admit, I would have expected the KEF 203/2 to be better than the R900... will be interesting to see what Cno has to say about that.

Here's looking forward to the next installment.

Mac

Mac,

thanks for your kind words.

The Primare combo is interesting and a quality product, though not for me.

The business with the KEFs was very odd and not at all what I was expecting. The Reference 203s were in gloss white: I wonder if that made a difference :roll:

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

I'll give a fuller reply later, but I feel the Refs work much better with Class A, and for my taste the Class D would sound much better on the end of the R Series.........I had exactly the same experience when I heard both speakers on the end of Linn amplification.

 

[matt49]

I'll give a fuller reply later, but I feel the Refs work much better with Class A, and for my taste the Class D would sound much better on the end of the R Series.........I had exactly the same experience when I heard both speakers on the end of Linn amplification.

Cno,

Interesting: looking forward to more later.

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

Right, back from work now and so will try and get my (very personal) thoughts into some sort of cohesive order......I suspect that we have similar taste in how we like music presented.

The Kef Refs are exactly that.....a Reference quality speaker that is used in studios, to accurately portray what is going on. It is very revealing of what is up stream and will let you know precisely how good your source is, what your amp is like, the quality of the recording and even (ime) highlighting cable changes. It is also worth taking time over the set up.

Like a great actor, they completely change character depending on what is feeding them....I have heard them sounding bright, forward and shouty, as well as smooth, emotive, accurate and euphonious. Personally I would never match them with anything too forward or analytical.

I know how good they sound with the AMS35i, which produce a sound that is the exact opposide of thin and reedy.....violins, sopranos and piano all sound as they should. Brands that I would match are: MF AMS, Accuphase, Luxman, Audio Analogue (Class A), Electrocompaniet, Plinius (Class A), Sugden (Masterclass Monoblocks), McIntosh Valve Monoblocks, Icon Audio Monoblocks.

The better the amp feeding them, the better they sound....they have huge headroom.

One thing to bear in mind is that imo the 205/2s are substantially better than the 203/2s for scale and overall impact...I really wanted to go for the 203/2s, but wouldn't have been happy after hearing the 205/2s (this didn't happen when I heard the 207/2s, which was only out of academic interest). I suspect the extra scale from the R900s would also have been a factor (it would take a much more expensive amp than the Primare to get the most from the 203/2s bass).

If the Refs are like Russell Crowe, then the R Series are like Sean Connery.....always enjoyable, no matter what the part, but always very recognizable. I have never heard them sound less than good on all sorts of amps at all sorts of price ranges. It takes a reasonably competent amp to control the bass, but you can get away with much more budget amps than you would with the Refs.

I suspect what you may have heard, was the Refs highlighting some of the sound characteristics of Class D (which is why I steer clear), though I would be much happier if matched with R900s.

I hope I have shed some light on matters.....If you want to hear the Refs sounding emotive, retaining the passion in the music, look to the list I have suggested. If you are looking for a Class D type amp, I would look to R900 / R700

 

[Macspur]

Much as I suspected, just wanted to read your usual eloquent explanation

 

[matt49]

Right, back from work now and so will try and get my (very personal) thoughts into some sort of cohesive order......I suspect that we have similar taste in how we like music presented.

The Kef Refs are exactly that.....a Reference quality speaker that is used in studios, to accurately portray what is going on. It is very revealing of what is up stream and will let you know precisely how good your source is, what your amp is like, the quality of the recording and even (ime) highlighting cable changes. It is also worth taking time over the set up.

Like a great actor, they completely change character depending on what is feeding them....I have heard them sounding bright, forward and shouty, as well as smooth, emotive, accurate and euphonious. Personally I would never match them with anything too forward or analytical.

I know how good they sound with the AMS35i, which produce a sound that is the exact opposide of thin and reedy.....violins, sopranos and piano all sound as they should. Brands that I would match are: MF AMS, Accuphase, Luxman, Audio Analogue (Class A), Electrocompaniet, Plinius (Class A), Sugden (Masterclass Monoblocks), McIntosh Valve Monoblocks, Icon Audio Monoblocks.

The better the amp feeding them, the better they sound....they have huge headroom.

One thing to bear in mind is that imo the 205/2s are substantially better than the 203/2s for scale and overall impact...I really wanted to go for the 203/2s, but wouldn't have been happy after hearing the 205/2s (this didn't happen when I heard the 207/2s, which was only out of academic interest). I suspect the extra scale from the R900s would also have been a factor (it would take a much more expensive amp than the Primare to get the most from the 203/2s bass).

If the Refs are like Russell Crowe, then the R Series are like Sean Connery.....always enjoyable, no matter what the part, but always very recognizable. I have never heard them sound less than good on all sorts of amps at all sorts of price ranges. It takes a reasonably competent amp to control the bass, but you can get away with much more budget amps than you would with the Refs.

I suspect what you may have heard, was the Refs highlighting some of the sound characteristics of Class D (which is why I steer clear), though I would be much happier if matched with R900s.

I hope I have shed some light on matters.....If you want to hear the Refs sounding emotive, retaining the passion in the music, look to the list I have suggested. If you are looking for a Class D type amp, I would look to R900 / R700

Cno,

Thanks for the full and informative response. I think we do share a similar taste in presentation of music.

I may not have made this clear in my original post, but this demo was about the amp, not the speakers, which were a suggestion of the dealer (and TBH he didn't have anything decent other than KEF). Of course, demoing amps without speakers isn't usually very informative ...

The reason I demoed the Primare combo was, if I'm honest, curiosity. I'm inquisitive by nature. I've heard good (and bad) things said about Primare, and the idea of energy efficiency appeals, though not enough to override sound quality, of course. I think I'll listen to the new Devialet models too.

Thanks for your list of amps. Monoblocks are a no-no, ditto valves. I demoed an Electrocompaniet integrated and pre-power a couple of weeks ago (as reported on the 'Accuphase near London' thread. I'm still waiting for my local dealer to get the AMS35i in. It seems there's been a delay at the factory.

The only thing I'd take issue with in your post is the Russell Crowe analogy. I guess you were alluding to his brawn. To my taste he's wooden and self-important and lacks craft. But then I'm much more into stage than screen.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

The only thing I'd take issue with in your post is the Russell Crowe analogy. I guess you were alluding to his brawn. To my taste he's wooden and self-important and lacks craft. But then I'm much more into stage than screen.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

Make it Daniel Day-Lewis then......method acting at its best.

 

[matt49]

The only thing I'd take issue with in your post is the Russell Crowe analogy. I guess you were alluding to his brawn. To my taste he's wooden and self-important and lacks craft. But then I'm much more into stage than screen.

Thanks for your help.

Matt

Make it Daniel Day-Lewis then......method acting at its best.

Now you're talking. And he makes his own shoes by hand!

 

[CnoEvil]

Now you're talking. And he makes his own shoes by hand!

If he only made amps.......... 8)

 

[matt49]

If he only made amps.......... 8)

Out of leather? :O

 

[CnoEvil]

If he only made amps.......... 8)

Out of leather? :O

If it added sole to the music.........why not.

 

[Macspur]

If he only made amps.......... 8)

Out of leather? :O

If it added sole to the music.........why not.

 

[Singslinger]

If he only made amps.......... 8)

Out of leather? :O

If it added sole to the music.........why not.

:rofl: :shame:

 

[Macspur]

Hi Singslinger,

Welcome back, hope you had a good trip.

Any sign of the Harbeths?

Matt49, the author of this post is, amongst others, considering the E560, but can't demo one here in the UK. As an owner of one yourself, could you perhaps reitterate your thoughts on that amp?

Mac

 

[Singslinger]

Hi Singslinger,

Welcome back, hope you had a good trip.

Any sign of the Harbeths?

Matt49, the author of this post is, amongst others, considering the E560, but can't demo one here in the UK. As an owner of one yourself, could you perhaps reitterate your thoughts on that amp?

Mac

Hi Mac, thanks and yes the trip was good. The weather in London wasn't great but in N Ireland it was surprisingly good, so managed to visit a fair few places outside of Belfast (Lisburn, Newcastle, Carrick-a-rede, Giant's Causeway). The Harbeths are to due to arrive this weekend, but this was the date given to me before I left for the UK so I'm not sure if it'll really be the case.

As for the Accuphase E-560, I'd say the closest comparison available in the UK would be the Musical Fidelity AMS 35i. I haven't heard the two side-by-side myself, but when I was considering the purchase of either amp, I read a rave review of the MF in an Australian hifi mag and emailed the writer on whether he had compared the MF with the E-560. Turned out that he had and his view was there was nothing to choose between them, sound-wise. His advice was to make the decision based on features, price, resale value etc.

I then decided on the Accuphase partly based on price because where I live it was approx 15% cheaper than the MF, and partly because it can drive two sets of speakers (one at a time if necessary). At the moment my speaker A is the ProAc K6 whose ribbon tweeters work well with class A amplification and when the Harbeth 30.1s arrive, I'll be using them as speaker B. After more than 20 years of fiddling around with many class B, AB and D amps (Naim, Audiolab and Jeff Rowland) I've decided that the class A sound suits my ageing ears best - it's powerful yet refined with plenty of detail and space when needed. There's a musicality which is hard to describe - perhaps CnoEvil with his extensive experience of the AMS 35i can add some thoughts here.

Hope this helps. Once the Harbeths do arrive (it's taking bloody ages!) and once I've run them in (hmm, maybe I shouldn't say that since Harbeth's Alan Shaw doesn't believe in running-in!! :shhh: ) I'll send you my impressions.

All the best. :cheers:

 

[Macspur]

Glad you had a good trip Singslinger.

Thanks for your thoughts on the E560, I'm sure Matt will appreciate them too.

I look forward to your thoughts on a burnt in pair of 30.1's

Mac

 

[matt49]

Hi Mac, thanks and yes the trip was good. The weather in London wasn't great but in N Ireland it was surprisingly good, so managed to visit a fair few places outside of Belfast (Lisburn, Newcastle, Carrick-a-rede, Giant's Causeway). The Harbeths are to due to arrive this weekend, but this was the date given to me before I left for the UK so I'm not sure if it'll really be the case. As for the Accuphase E-560, I'd say the closest comparison available in the UK would be the Musical Fidelity AMS 35i. I haven't heard the two side-by-side myself, but when I was considering the purchase of either amp, I read a rave review of the MF in an Australian hifi mag and emailed the writer on whether he had compared the MF with the E-560. Turned out that he had and his view was there was nothing to choose between them, sound-wise. His advice was to make the decision based on features, price, resale value etc. I then decided on the Accuphase partly based on price because where I live it was approx 15% cheaper than the MF, and partly because it can drive two sets of speakers (one at a time if necessary). At the moment my speaker A is the ProAc K6 whose ribbon tweeters work well with class A amplification and when the Harbeth 30.1s arrive, I'll be using them as speaker B. After more than 20 years of fiddling around with many class B, AB and D amps (Naim, Audiolab and Jeff Rowland) I've decided that the class A sound suits my ageing ears best - it's powerful yet refined with plenty of detail and space when needed. There's a musicality which is hard to describe - perhaps CnoEvil with his extensive experience of the AMS 35i can add some thoughts here. Hope this helps. Once the Harbeths do arrive (it's taking bloody ages!) and once I've run them in (hmm, maybe I shouldn't say that since Harbeth's Alan Shaw doesn't believe in running-in!! :shhh: ) I'll send you my impressions. All the best. :cheers:

Hi Singslinger,

That's really helpful. Interesting to hear about the Australian reviewer; I'd read his piece on the AMS35i.

Unsurprisingly the prices are the other way round here, with the Accuphase about 25% more expensive than the MF.

I know the MF runs very hot. How about the Accu? Hot or just warm?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Matt

 

[Singslinger]

Hi Matt,

The E-560 runs quite warm but not so hot that you can't rest your hand on it comfortably for several seconds. I know the Aussie review of the AMS 35i spoke of how hot that amp runs (I recall the reviewer recommended interested parties should quickly buy the amp before it ran foul of Australia's "green'' laws since it ran so hot) but I don't think the E-560 puts out that much heat.

A thought just struck me - Luxman also make comparable class A amps which I've been led to believe are comparable to the E-560 and the AMS35i. Might be worth considering? I'm not sure how available they are in your part of the world though.

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt, The E-560 runs quite warm but not so hot that you can't rest your hand on it comfortably for several seconds. I know the Aussie review of the AMS 35i spoke of how hot that amp runs (I recall the reviewer recommended interested parties should quickly buy the amp before it ran foul of Australia's "green'' laws since it ran so hot) but I don't think the E-560 puts out that much heat. A thought just struck me - Luxman also make comparable class A amps which I've been led to believe are comparable to the E-560 and the AMS35i. Might be worth considering? I'm not sure how available they are in your part of the world though.

Thanks for your thoughts about the heat output.

Luxman is more widely available in the UK than Accuphase. Comparisons are often drawn between Luxman and Accu class As, in terms of sound but also look. I've been told the two manufacturers source some of their parts from the same suppliers. I've read quite a few comparative reports on Luxman and Accu, mainly on US forums. My sense is they come out roughly 9 to 1 in favour of Accu. But I think I might still give Luxman a whirl. Thanks for the suggestion.

Matt

 

[Macspur]

Hi Matt,

I believe the Luxman L-590A II would be the nearest equivalent to the E560, although I think they might run quite warm too.

Mac

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt,

I believe the Luxman L-590A II would be the nearest equivalent to the E560, although I think they might run quite warm too.

Mac

Thanks, Mac. I've emailed the UK distributor. According to the Luxman website the L-590AII has 'limited availability'. Well see ...

Matt

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt,

I believe the Luxman L-590A II would be the nearest equivalent to the E560, although I think they might run quite warm too.

Mac

Thanks, Mac. I've emailed the UK distributor. According to the Luxman website the L-590AII has 'limited availability'. Well see ...

Matt

This has worked out nicely. The same dealer who's demoing the Pass Labs INT30A for me next week can also demo the Luxman L-590A II.

Thanks for your suggestions, gents!

Matt

:cheers:

 

[Singslinger]

Excellent news Matt! :dance:

Let us know how it goes! :cheer: