Power Cords - Yes, Yes I know…. Some Advice please!

[TrevC]

Crossie

The cable in the box is not the issue............. You say science and logic makes your point. ....................

1. Science tels us different materials conduct electricity in different ways, different cables have an effect on the sound produduced.....

Mains cables? Nope. Interconnects? They could be made to sound different if strange conductors are used but better? Nope.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Fredd58

I don't understand.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, you don't know the chord of 'E'?

Hi Freddy58

Guitars? Seriously though after just finishing a 130 hour week the only E that is making any sense to me at the moment is the one in bEd and in slEEp

Anyway please explain

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[bigboss]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

 

[spiny norman]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

I think just the link would have done.

 

[Freddy58]

Hi Fredd58

I don't understand.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Seriously, you don't know the chord of 'E'?

Hi Freddy58

Guitars? Seriously though after just finishing a 130 hour week the only E that is making any sense to me at the moment is the one in bEd and in slEEp

Anyway please explain

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yes, could be guitar, or any stringed instrument (includes piano)

 

[Vladimir]

bigboss thank you for sharing it. Much apreciated. :cheers:

 

[Alec]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

I think just the link would have done.

Aye.

 

[bigboss]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

I think just the link would have done.

Done it few times before; a lot of people don't read it. Now I can link this thread for future arguments instead.

 

[Broner]

@Bigboss: would have appreciated the use of paragraphs and other common tools for organising text. It's a bit difficult to read like this.

 

[bigboss]

Quite hard from my mobile from where I posted. I'll see what I can do tonight.

 

[davidvann]

hi all,what i dont understand if all mains cables are snake oil,why is that the companys that make them sell so many ,or should we check in to get a hearing tested.for the op the only word for it you can take is your own,see if you can borrow some from your local dealer and decide for yourself.david

 

[chebby]

http://idc1966.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/how-do-audiophile-cables-work.html

Written by WHF? forum member idc ...

http://www.whathifi.com/users/idc-1

 

[andyjm]

hi all,what i dont understand if all mains cables are snake oil,why is that the companys that make them sell so many ,or should we check in to get a hearing tested.for the op the only word for it you can take is your own,see if you can borrow some from your local dealer and decide for yourself.david

David,

The engineering answer is that all properly specified mains cables (the one supplied with the amp, for example) will perform the same.

Trying different cables yourself is a reasonable test to see if you agree, as long as you rule out suggestion bias which is a very powerful effect. If you get a mate to swap the cable and hear a difference unsighted, then fine. Swap it yourself and all you are testing is how much the marketing has worked.

The reason so many cables / accessories are sold is that this is where the margins are. HiFi retailing is a cut throat business, the margins on selling the equipment itself is thin, there is much more to be made on the add ons. Just like exended guarantees.

 

[andyjm]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

IDC has produced a well written analysis.

I would argue that he could have made the point clearer that of course cables do matter - there are good engineering reasons why some cables are screened, some are thick, some are twisted, and so on. It depends on the application and the electrical properties required.

Where he is absolutely correct is that two properly specified cables will perform the same.

 

[mr malarky]

As you can see, idc has done a lot of research in this field, and checked a lot of available evidence (with references) and his own personal experience. This is as comprehensive as it can get.

IDC has produced a well written analysis.

I would argue that he could have made the point clearer that of course cables do matter - there are good engineering reasons why some cables are screened, some are thick, some are twisted, and so on. It depends on the application and the electrical properties required.

Where he is absolutely correct is that two properly specified cables will perform the same.

For me, the most interesting part of IDC's article was the link to the study carried out by the MIT student; its a fairly technical read (much of which went over my head to be honest) but it's pretty persuasive stuff and the summary/conclusion section in particular is worth a read:

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46225/41567257.pdf

 

[CnoEvil]

@ OP

Had enough advice yet?

 

[Broner]

hi all,what i dont understand if all mains cables are snake oil,why is that the companys that make them sell so many ,or should we check in to get a hearing tested.for the op the only word for it you can take is your own,see if you can borrow some from your local dealer and decide for yourself.david

Unfortunately, this type of argument reoccurs every now and then.

There are multiple reasons why manufacturers sell whatever they sell in large quantities, and many of them have very little to do with the qualities of the products themselves. Marketing is everything. Companies advertise not so much because they want people to know that they honestly have a better product on offer, but advertisements are a way to boost the value of a product, allowing for higher profits. As long as there are cables to be sold, there will be companies that will rely on advertisements to sell more expensive cables.

There are numerous examples of products on offer which don't offer anything beyond what the competition offers or simply have no inherent beneficial qualities at all. Two examples: Duracell batteries & homeopathy. With respect to Duracell batteries: yes they work perfectly fine, but not better than other batteries (http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html). The reason why they are so expensive, is because their value has been raised by lots and lots of advertisements. Second example: when we think about homeopathy, we know that it works. It is very effective, but it is not more effective than any other placebo. It is even so implausible for it to work beyond the effect of a placebo, that one could say that it's virtually impossible that homeopathic substances themselves cause beneficial effects. Nonetheless, this branch of organised foolery is so generally accepted and wide spread (can't recall how many times I've heard 'why don't you try it, you'll see!'), that a mere reference to these practices is an instant and absolute rebuttal to any argument about cables which implies that "there must be something good about those expensive cables, for why would they otherwise be selling so much?"

 

[chebby]

With respect to Duracell batteries: yes they work perfectly fine, but not better than other batteries (http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html). The reason why they are so expensive ...

I only ever buy Duracell AA batteries when they are two packs for the price of one pack. I have rarely seen such offers on 'own-brand' supermarket batteries.

We only use them for our three wireless mice, so a couple of BOGOF packs of four AAs last us at least a year.

I would agree that many supermarket 'own brand' items are either identical or superior (and far cheaper) than 'premium' brands though.

Waitrose 'Essential' soups are an example. Way more tasty and cheaper.

My wife needed a lot more convincing than I did until one day I took the previous fortnight's receipt and bought the same items (and quantities) for £41 less. I also managed to convert her to an own brand tomato ketchup and freshly baked bread from their bakery and own brand breakfast wheat biscuits (way better and almost half the price of Weetabix.)

This meant we could afford to buy better quality cuts of meat, better quality eggs and cheese etc. without significantly denting the savings made on cutting out the Branstons and Heinz's and Andrex's and McDougall's and Kelloggs etc.

I don't even buy packaged orange juice any more. It takes about 10 minutes to squeeze enough fresh oranges (from the vegetable shop nearby) to fill a 2 litre jug. (At about 2/3rds of the price of any so-called 'pure' orange juice.) Tastes far better too.

Farm shops used to be good value for excellent fresh meat and veg, but our favourite ones have now gone all 'poncey' (with prices to match) as a result of various 'foodie' programmes making them more popular.

 

[Freddy58]

With respect to Duracell batteries: yes they work perfectly fine, but not better than other batteries (http://www.batteryshowdown.com/results-lo.html). The reason why they are so expensive ...

I only ever buy Duracell AA batteries when they are two packs for the price of one pack. I have rarely seen such offers on 'own-brand' supermarket batteries.

We only use them for our three wireless mice, so a couple of BOGOF packs of four AAs last us at least a year.

I would agree that many supermarket 'own brand' items are either identical or superior (and far cheaper) than 'premium' brands though.

Waitrose 'Essential' soups are an example. Way more tasty and cheaper.

My wife needed a lot more convincing than I did until one day I took the previous fortnight's receipt and bought the same items (and quantities) for £41 less. I also managed to convert her to an own brand tomato ketchup and freshly baked bread from their bakery and own brand breakfast wheat biscuits (way better and almost half the price of Weetabix.)

This meant we could afford to buy better quality cuts of meat, better quality eggs and cheese etc. without significantly denting the savings made on cutting out the Branstons and Heinz's and Andrex's and McDougall's and Kelloggs etc.

I don't even buy packaged orange juice any more. It takes about 10 minutes to squeeze enough fresh oranges (from the vegetable shop nearby) to fill a 2 litre jug. (At about 2/3rds of the price of any so-called 'pure' orange juice.) Tastes far better too.

Farm shops used to be good value for excellent fresh meat and veg, but our favourite ones have now gone all 'poncey' (with prices to match) as a result of various 'foodie' programmes making them more popular.

:rofl:

 

[davidvann]

hi all ,thank you for yoir replies,i have tried many mains cables in my system the ones i have now have brought an improvement to my system,which i believe i have heard,the non believer will tell me that im hearing thing and that my mind is playing tricks on me,so my question is how do i you know if when using out of the box cables that im hearing the true representation of the music on how it is meant to be heard,also how do we know when using out of the box cables that i mind is not playing tricks on what we are hearing.cheers david

 

[Alec]

...so my question is how do i you know if when using out of the box cables that im hearing the true representation of the music on how it is meant to be heard...

By remembering that power cables make no difference.

...also how do we know when using out of the box cables that i mind is not playing tricks on what we are hearing...

If you hear a difference, your rmind is playing tricks on you.

EDIT - I think I got your second question a little wrong. It seems it might be, effectively, the same as your first, in which case, my answer shoudl have been "see above".

 

[steve_1979]

hi all ,thank you for yoir replies,i have tried many mains cables in my system the ones i have now have brought an improvement to my system,which i believe i have heard,the non believer will tell me that im hearing thing and that my mind is playing tricks on me,so my question is how do i you know if when using out of the box cables that im hearing the true representation of the music on how it is meant to be heard,also how do we know when using out of the box cables that i mind is not playing tricks on what we are hearing.cheers david

Blind testing.

Get a friend to swap the cables round a few times without you knowing which one you are listening to. In these kind of comparisons the differences between mains cables always disappear.

 

[super]

So are you saying that if i replace all my power cables on my Linn/Naim six pack system with the Naim powerline cable (price £495) i won't hear a difference ?

 

[Broner]

So are you saying that if i replace all my power cables on my Linn/Naim six pack system with the Naim powerline cable (price £495) i won't hear a difference ?

You might very well hear a difference, but that doesn't mean that the sound that is actually emitted has changed. This the basic problem of personal experiences with cables: based on what you hear you just can't say what's the cause of it. You can only say what you experience and that's it, unless you opt for a blind listening test.

 

[Broner]

@CHebby Most of the marketing for food products is directed at women, so it’s only logical that they can be more attached to brand products. (Of course one could also say that they are easier targets )

The funny thing with advertising is that many people still conceptualize it as a cost. And sure enough, advertisements cost money, but what they really do (that is when you are thinking about consumer goods) is raise the value of products or services without changing them intrinsically, allowing for higher profits and entrance to a different segment of the market.

If you really understand this concept, you’ll quickly understand that there is no principle to prefer a well-known product from television to another one. I too go for cheap brands and I shop at different supermarkets to get what I really like at the best prices.

But fair enough, what I really like has been heavily mediated by advertisements. Thinking about food, it has only partially to do with the pure taste of the stuff that I put in mouth. I can’t escape it. Just like so many others I have a preference for Coca Cola. I think I only drink it once a month or even less, but those clever marketing guys at Coca Cola have been able to make drinking a can of Coca Cola a better experience than drinking Pepsi or any other Cola. Kudos to them.