Paradigm SUB 15, Ken Kreisel 5000 Mark3 subwoofer advice advice needed..

[moonfly]

I'm sure Ken wouldn't just say something because he could. Maybe he meant in performance? I'll be emailing him later - I'll ask him.

That would be of use and particular interest to me. I posted in his thread asking about the concept he's created, and intend to ask him about that comment there, hopefully he can find the time to respond. Its entirely possible for a DXD to match a single 18 in performance, but again it would depend on the particular sub. I'm very sceptical that it could match the best single 18'2 out there, and IMO Kens subs are the best 12" subs out there that I have ever measured and heard, so I think its only fair to compare it to the best 18's that are out there. I know the old MX series could hold a candle to things Ive built myself, and the dual 12 I built couldnt quite do it either, though it was astonishingly close given the design was about 1/8th the size.

Personally, I would really say that if you were to compare a DXD to an 18" powered sub on a like for like basis, that you really need to be looking at a dual 18 design. That isnt whats being put forward here though, so as you have noticed I have not mentioned that up until this point. I think its fair to compare the DXD to a single 18 design though from a commercial POV. Typically, high end 18's will be larger and more expensive (twice the price), and in pure performance terms, there DXD no doubt represent huge VFM. Consider that a pair of DXD's will offer superior room tuning and at the very least match any single 18 sealed designs out there for similar money, and its clear what exactly is attractive about the new sub.

 

[v1c]

I'm sure Ken wouldn't just say something because he could. Maybe he meant in performance? I'll be emailing him later - I'll ask him.

That would be of use and particular interest to me. I posted in his thread asking about the concept he's created, and intend to ask him about that comment there, hopefully he can find the time to respond. Its entirely possible for a DXD to match a single 18 in performance, but again it would depend on the particular sub. I'm very sceptical that it could match the best single 18'2 out there, and IMO Kens subs are the best 12" subs out there that I have ever measured and heard, so I think its only fair to compare it to the best 18's that are out there. I know the old MX series could hold a candle to things Ive built myself, and the dual 12 I built couldnt quite do it either, though it was astonishingly close given the design was about 1/8th the size.

Personally, I would really say that if you were to compare a DXD to an 18" powered sub on a like for like basis, that you really need to be looking at a dual 18 design. That isnt whats being put forward here though, so as you have noticed I have not mentioned that up until this point. I think its fair to compare the DXD to a single 18 design though from a commercial POV. Typically, high end 18's will be larger and more expensive (twice the price), and in pure performance terms, there DXD no doubt represent huge VFM. Consider that a pair of DXD's will offer superior room tuning and at the very least match any single 18 sealed designs out there for similar money, and its clear what exactly is attractive about the new sub.

Nice to see you have started a dialogue with Ken on the AVF thread i hope he takes time out to talk to you.

I do have a question

Is there anything in the Driver overview cone design for the DXD12012 the could provide a clue to a possible answer to the statement in particular the part were it says

"The combination of cone angle, dust cap diameter, shape and geometry have been meticulously selected to provide near perfect piston emulation, maximum cone area efficiency, and controlled high velocity characteristics in both the inward and outward directions."

I would be interested to know what you think.

I also would like to add that i feel maybe Ken is moving away from bigger drivers with the advent of his stacking system i mean what would be better than a Quattro Quattro formation of DXD's 16 subs and 32 drivers !!! that must be immense.

I found some of your builds online and they look superb you obviously have alot of knowledge but please don't put it to Ken the way you put it to us (i've included you in that david hope you don't mind)

 

[moonfly]

I'm sure Ken wouldn't just say something because he could. Maybe he meant in performance? I'll be emailing him later - I'll ask him.

That would be of use and particular interest to me. I posted in his thread asking about the concept he's created, and intend to ask him about that comment there, hopefully he can find the time to respond. Its entirely possible for a DXD to match a single 18 in performance, but again it would depend on the particular sub. I'm very sceptical that it could match the best single 18'2 out there, and IMO Kens subs are the best 12" subs out there that I have ever measured and heard, so I think its only fair to compare it to the best 18's that are out there. I know the old MX series could hold a candle to things Ive built myself, and the dual 12 I built couldnt quite do it either, though it was astonishingly close given the design was about 1/8th the size.

Personally, I would really say that if you were to compare a DXD to an 18" powered sub on a like for like basis, that you really need to be looking at a dual 18 design. That isnt whats being put forward here though, so as you have noticed I have not mentioned that up until this point. I think its fair to compare the DXD to a single 18 design though from a commercial POV. Typically, high end 18's will be larger and more expensive (twice the price), and in pure performance terms, there DXD no doubt represent huge VFM. Consider that a pair of DXD's will offer superior room tuning and at the very least match any single 18 sealed designs out there for similar money, and its clear what exactly is attractive about the new sub.

Nice to see you have started a dialogue with Ken on the AVF thread i hope he takes time out to talk to you.

I do have a question

Is there anything in the Driver overview cone design for the DXD12012 the could provide a clue to a possible answer to the statement in particular the part were it says

"The combination of cone angle, dust cap diameter, shape and geometry have been meticulously selected to provide near perfect piston emulation, maximum cone area efficiency, and controlled high velocity characteristics in both the inward and outward directions."

I would be interested to know what you think.

I also would like to add that i feel maybe Ken is moving away from bigger drivers with the advent of his stacking system i mean what would be better than a Quattro Quattro formation of DXD's 16 subs and 32 drivers !!! that must be immense.

I found some of your builds online and they look superb you obviously have alot of knowledge but please don't put it to Ken the way you put it to us (i've included you in that david hope you don't mind)

That section is fairly typical of what you might read on any marketing page, in so much as it tells us everything without actually telling us anything. As such I cant really comment on it specifically as I'm not privy to the design specifics, and I can only speculate. My speculation though would be this. I have no doubt a pair of KK bass drivers would match the area of an 18 inch disc, which could be ghe source of that comment, but I must stress its speculation on my part. Flat drivers, though not common, do exist. The dust cap design would follow on from this. Under the dust cap the cone continues in, amd as such has a greater surface area than a flat dust cap would have. Copy that profile and invert it and you your dust cap, but do not lose surface area. Its conceivable the dust cap could be designed to actually increase surface area, though I would say its negligable as any significant increase would be quite noticable. Also, a larger dust cap would increase the weight of the driver, which I believe would be against the drivers design requirement. The driver could be particularly deep, but it doesnt appear so in the pictures, and look very similar to the old drivers which I actually owned myself when I bought and MX kit so i could build an MX250 for myself.

The original MX series drivers werent particulalry remarkable, but the MX5100 drivers were a step up and these new drivers no doubt are as well, but which ever way you look at it, a pair of 12's if compared like for like wont match a single 18 in surface area. There are some distinct advantages to smaller drivers. The obvious one is cabinet size. Getting an 18 in a small cab is very expensive. A proportionally small cabinet loses efficiency, which is why you see such high end designs using a lot of power, which again drives up cost. A pair of 12's , even in a cabinet a small as the DXD, arent trying to fit into a small space, so they lend themselves to a compact design that still performs. A pair of 12's, when compared like for like do exceed a single 15 compact sealed sub, and the DXD is similarly priced to such subs. A pair of DXD's will also win out against a single similarly priced single 18 compact design. There are clear merits to the design choices.

 

[martin morecroft]

Excellent banter. Thanks, you made my night! A career in politics awaits you. A subwoofer is more than the cone size. You all seem to be lost in a pointless arguement based on speculation. You should all get together with your favourite subs and listen to them. You will then be able to form a useful opinion :rofl:

 

[Frank Harvey]

A subwoofer is more than the cone size.

if you're making a statement there, I totally agree.

 

[moonfly]

Excellent banter. Thanks, you made my night! A career in politics awaits you. A subwoofer is more than the cone size. You all seem to be lost in a pointless arguement based on speculation. You should all get together with your favourite subs and listen to them. You will then be able to form a useful opinion :rofl:

There is no banter, those are the facts in plain black and white. A subwoofer is more than its cone size, and a large driver doesnt guarantee a good subwoofer, just a a small driver doesnt either. Its is important to be aware though that a driver does make all the difference, and its the single most important part of a subwoofer by a good margin. Size isnt an all definining factor, and using multiple drivers over single larger ones is preferable, but when it comes to producing excellent bass, compact designs have physics working against them, so its a bit more difficult to get such design to outperform larger designs using the same tech. That typically drives up cost, which is a non issue if purchase pricing doesnt concern you.

FWIW, Ive offered many times to arrange a get together, but always get the same responses and the offer is always declined, for what ever reason.

 

[v1c]

I see L sound have a price reduction of 17% on the DXD12012 and 25% on the DXD808 to bring inline with european pricing that's approx £424 off the price of each at uk prices. Will that be the case David ?.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi v1c

Our prices will be updated on our website soon to fall in line with Europe's pricing. It follows L Sound's move to direct selling rather than being just a distributor. So the DXD12012 will be around £1995 and the DXD808 will be around £1195 :dance:

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Well, L Sound sold an SVS PC-12 Plus to me in March, so they weren't being only a distributor then. I probably won't be able to afford it, David, but what will your new price for the top SVS cylinder subwoofer, the PC-13 Ultra, be?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Well, L Sound sold an SVS PC-12 Plus to me in March, so they weren't being only a distributor then. I probably won't be able to afford it, David, but what will your new price for the top SVS cylinder subwoofer, the PC-13 Ultra, be?

We're waiting for the new pricing to come from the new UK distributor at the moment. I don't know if it will be identical pricing for SVS or not until then.

 

[v1c]

FWIW, Ive offered many times to arrange a get together, but always get the same responses and the offer is always declined, for what ever reason.

Well if some of the threads i've read are anything to go by it would be boxing gloves not subwoofers needed :rofl:

 

[v1c]

Hi v1c

Our prices will be updated on our website soon to fall in line with Europe's pricing. It follows L Sound's move to direct selling rather than being just a distributor. So the DXD12012 will be around £1995 and the DXD808 will be around £1195 :dance:

Thanks David that is good news indeed :dance:

 

[moonfly]

FWIW, Ive offered many times to arrange a get together, but always get the same responses and the offer is always declined, for what ever reason.

Well if some of the threads i've read are anything to go by it would be boxing gloves not subwoofers needed :rofl:

Lol, thats not what I'm about. I like to think I'm impartial and honest. A few years ago I was an ultra owner, and it showed me a whole new world of performance. I loved the sub and the prices back then where amazing, I couldnt afford anything better. Still, as impressive as it was I wasnt convinced it did everything right. I still searched for better bass, and that search lead me to M&K MX 125's. I demo'd a pair at home and although even two of those subs didnt do the low end like the ultra, I new they had something special I needed in my life, and I wasnt scared to admit it. I began looking for something that were basically the M&K's that could do what the ultra did low down. I couldnt find anything in any demo rooms that came close and many where very expensive. Looking online at even more expensive stuff had me wandering why I couldnt find bass I was every happy with. That lead me into an obsession to learn everything I could about bass thats yet to wind down. Ive since enjoyed bass thats had me eyes closed all night, and producd smiles at the most unexpected moments in films,

Thats all I'm about. I've built a fair few subs, spent hundreds or hours adjusting designs, testing and measuring,and experimenting with all aspects of eq. I did because I had to know the answer to the question 'why'. A lot of things can be explained but there is a level of understanding beyond that that cant really be conveyed, like system Q. There is only one way to correlate system Q to real world listening differences, but it makes a difference. Thats why Ive always been one to travel and try listen to other systems, and why I wanted to get together with David, I think his opinion of me would have changed.

All that aside, I dont think anyone who buys a KK sub will ever be unhappy with it. They still remain my favourite sounding commercial sub, and Ive not even heard the improved versions.

 

[v1c]

Hi v1c

Our prices will be updated on our website soon to fall in line with Europe's pricing. It follows L Sound's move to direct selling rather than being just a distributor. So the DXD12012 will be around £1995 and the DXD808 will be around £1195 :dance:

So it's £1979 for the DXD12012 and £1150 for the DXD808 :dance:

Really refreshing to see a product actually reducing it's £ to $ ratio rather than staying the same. It would be great if some others followed suit Oppo EU103 for £349 ish instead of £499 as an example.

 

[Anonymous]

The price drop on the 12012 makes this even more of a redundant thread. It has been entertaining though.

 

[ideal av]

I was gonna keep out of this thread but Vic you`d have me working at a loss if the OPPO 103 was £349 >)

where on earth can you get a bluray player with this much spec on it for £349, tell me please :?

the KK`s dropping nearly 500quid and theirs still profit to be made, well has to make you think doesn`t it, shame about the owners who`ve bought them at £2500 as theirs has instantly de-valued itself

anyway the thread has been good up to now entertainment wise

Hi Rick

how`s it going have you run the fathoms in yet, they really do get better and better

 

[v1c]

I was gonna keep out of this thread but Vic you`d have me working at a loss if the OPPO 103 was £349 >)

where on earth can you get a bluray player with this much spec on it for £349, tell me please

Hi , was just using as an example the Oppo is $499 in the USA so the real value is closer to £349. I'm not knocking you selling the Oppo at £499 to make a profit.... but it would be good if your suppliers reduced the price ratio so that you could sell at closer to the £350 mark and make a profit. This is what the KK's have done and as i said it is a refreshing change to have the $ value convert closer to an exchanged rate £ than stay the same £ value as the $ value. Would an owner of a KK DXD be unhappy the price has reduced maybe but if they saw the $ price they would realise in real terms they paid over the odds in the UK much like we are paying over the odds to buy an Oppo in the UK but not anymore for the KK's so that can only be a good thing.

While we are here what's the story with MKsound are they going to realese some new stuff or what they are very quiet.... nothing on the 950 floorstander nothing on the new MX range of subs have to say in comparison Ken's got me by the nads

 

[ideal av]

I know what you mean but once you`ve added customs handling duties and vat then their really isn`t a lot in it, apart from you have no warranty with an imported one unless you send it back to them.

that really must be considered surely

anyway now that you have asked, new subs from MK are just around the corner, their are as I understand it 3 new models all with twin drivers cabs, 2 x 8", 2 X 10" & 2 x 12"

and i`ve heard rumours ahem!! of a new reference sub from them so its lookinjg rosy for mk at the moment i`m sure

so watch this space as they say

mind the the new JL Audio subs I have are simply awesome...........

 

[Frank Harvey]

the KK`s dropping nearly 500quid and theirs still profit to be made, well has to make you think doesn`t it, shame about the owners who`ve bought them at £2500 as theirs has instantly de-valued itself

We look after our customers.

Does it make you think? No more than any other manufacturer making a profit, I suppose.

Ocassionally, some manufacturers reposition products in the market. Personally, I don't think the price drop was needed, because it was already the best sub out there for £2.5k. At £2k, its an absolute steal, with performance that exceeds the huge M&K MX5100SF - and as you know, that was a monster. I'd confidently put the DXD12012 up against ANY sub under £4k, and I'm sure it's value for money would be quite obvious. There's a number of subwoofer ranges out there that are way overpriced for what's on offer....

 

[Chewy]

the KK`s dropping nearly 500quid and theirs still profit to be made, well has to make you think doesn`t it, shame about the owners who`ve bought them at £2500 as theirs has instantly de-valued itself

We look after our customers.

Will you be refunding them their £500 loss then David?

 

[Frank Harvey]

As I say, we look after our customers

 

[Anonymous]

anyway now that you have asked, new subs from MK are just around the corner, their are as I understand it 3 new models all with twin drivers cabs, 2 x 8", 2 X 10" & 2 x 12"

and i`ve heard rumours ahem!! of a new reference sub from them so its lookinjg rosy for mk at the moment i`m sure

so watch this space as they say

Are these the same subs that were supposed to be released the end of last year but were not. Then around March/April this year but were not. That is on top of the 'rumours' that have been knocking around for the past 3 years. I wonder who started them.

'They' say a lot of things and it is mostly rubbish.

mind the the new JL Audio subs I have are simply awesome...........

Of course they are. You sell them.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Rick

how`s it going have you run the fathoms in yet, they really do get better and better

Hi Alan

I've mostly been using the Fathom f113

The Fathom f113 is truly excellent :star: As i said earlier the Fathom f113 reproduces massively fast, tight and deep bass which is supported with great power, grip, drive and hard hitting dynamics

Anyway, roll on the Fathom f212 :twisted: and the Gotham :twisted: ray:

http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f212-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96150

http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/home-audio-powered-subwoofers-gotham

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hmmm. A single 13" or a dual 12".....

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

@David - who else is demonstrating the KK subs in the UK?