Paradigm SUB 15, Ken Kreisel 5000 Mark3 subwoofer advice advice needed..

[admin_exported]

Hi! Folks.. Quite simply i'm after a subwoofer for my home cinema build currently my room is 20' w x 20' d x 8' h and that is feet in case anyone is wondering. I have been reading about the PARADIGM SUB 15, some folks say it is over priced and you can buy a good a subwoofer with the same output for much less money is this true or what is the story with this subwoofer I do not like reading forums but I have no way of knowing and maybe some folks on here will be better place to give good impartial advice.

The other subwoofer I have been reading a lot about is the Ken Kreisel 5000 Mark3, how would this subwoofer stack up against the Paradigm Sub 15. I want low end clout with gut wrenching thunderous base, I have also read a lot about these subwoofers not being particularally good at the low end and the SVS 13'' subwoofer can give plenty lower that the two most expensive subwoofers mentioned above only down side with the svs is the weight and @ 11 stone weight that is one heavy mother of a sub, so it is kinda ruled out as I live in an apartment block which has plenty of sound proofing so rumble wont be a problem but getting this thing up 4 flights of stairs will as I will be doing all the lifting..

I would have loved to buy the Velodyne DD18 but unfortunately that is funny money and to my mind is overpriced @ £6000 originally it was priced at a more sensible £3200 on one and a half years ago, lol so what happend to the british poiund?, but still if you have a money tree out back then this would be my subwoofer of choice x two but too rich for my blood.

What about the B&W DB1 Active Subwoofer £3200, I can buy the Paradigm for £**** and the Ken for £****

So folks come on please give me your honest opinion which or can you recommend to me a subwoofer that will literally kick me in the guts and make my day, all i'm interested in is low end for movies i'm not interested in music or anything of that nature this is purely movie orientated, ultimately I will have two of whatever subwoofer you mention but obviously these will be separate purchases as my wallet will need a breather after buying one of these bad boys.. So it will be a case of buy one now and the other sub one year down the road simply to let my wallet breathe a sigh of relief.. :cheers:

Please sensible replies please as im seriously buying one of the above Paradigm or Ken so I would appreciate a knowledgable response with experience as this is quite an expensive spend on a subwoofer the likes of which I thought I would never do so come on peeps which do you recommend or have you something else you could bring to my attention for consideration.. I'm based in the UK..

Thanks

 

[v1c]

I'm sure Paradigm make a great sub as do SVS, Fathom , Velodyne...... but what they don't have is Ken Kreisel. Kreisel invented the subwoofer a host of the major film studios use some form of Kreisel related subwoofers / speakers specifically for making movies. I really don't know why your even asking the question. The new Ken Kreisel DXD12012 (5000mk3) can be purposefully dual stacked or Quad stacked and you can go for a quad quad stack (16 subwoofers). I can't possibly see what more you could want for from a subwoofer. If you want to speak to someone about the Ken Kreisel contact David at Frank Harvey hifi (hifix) in Coventry.

 

[v1c]

Mr big i see it was your first post welcome to the forum if my answer above comes across as curt i asure you it's not meant to

 

[ric71]

I too had the same dilemma as you.

I opted for the Paradigm Studio Sub15 and it's Perfect Bass Kit sub EQ. All I can say it is phenomenal. It plays deep and loud and is no slouch. I have mine playing flat down to below 20hz. It also looks good. The bass literally hits you in the chest when required and is as delicate as a mouse when it needs to be.

I too considered the new KK, having owned M&K in the past. The KK sub is also fantastic, won't go as low as the Sub15 but it will give a harder punch. It's not as good looking either IMO. I would have been happy with either sub but for me as I am a big believer in Anthems PBK and ARC sub and room EQ so that swung it. As good as the SVS is it not in the same league. I did consider the BW sub but ok like the way they do bass from over the pond do that was ruled out. The Sub 15 is not over priced IMO. You should also consider the Paradigm Sub1 but it does cost more.

Hope this helps a bit

 

[Son_of_SJ]

This really is a question for a dealer, I feel, so here's hoping that Rick at Musicraft, David at Frank Harvey or Nick at the Home Cinema Centre will be able to help. For the money, £3,000 to £4,000, you should end up very happy. Your room is large but not huge, so I wonder if one of the really big subwoofers might be too much? I'm just asking, I don't know, but a dealer would. I do know that one of them sells the Paradigm Sub 15, but for only about £400 more you could get TWO second-hand REL G1's, which I was looking at enviously in the shop only today! A June 2012 review of the REL G1 said "In use, it's effortless, with no seeming limit to its low-end extension (Rel rates it at -6dB at 15Hz).". You'll also be aware of the debate between "two - identical - fairly good subwoofers" versus "one really good subwoofer" and again, a dealer will know best. I personally am very happy with my SVS PC12-Plus, but for your money you could buy two of the biggest SVS cylinder, the PC13-Ultra which if my experience with the slightly smaller unit in a room about three-quarters the size of yours is anything to go by, should really be something. But, I have no experience of the Ken Kreisel subs, nor of Velodyne.

By the way, since your name is Mr Big, you should be able to manage the four flights of stairs carrying one wee subwoofer! All the subs that I and others have mentioned, except for the B&W PV1D, are at least 40kg, so I hope that you have some strong friends ...

 

[Anonymous]

Hey v1c.

I loved your reply, you just said a spade is a spade nothing wrong with that a straight talker, so in all honesty the KK 5000 is the business? Though I doubt I would be buying any more than two for my cinema room.. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Hey ric71.

There you go a self confessed owner that is what I wanted to read someone with first hand knowledge of these subs, so you are giving it a massive thumbs up i'm getting a real good deal on the sub 15 so was thinking round about November I would do the dastardly deed and actually buy one but thought to give this a go writing on the forums before doing so just to see the lie of the land, the sub 1 does sound brill also but I prefer the sub 15 to be honest, then will add a second sub 15 a year down the road, or do you think that would be madness would the one sub 15 suffice on it's own what are your thoughts on that.. Would you agree to having two or just the one or should I say is there a need for two of these sub 15's. Thanks

 

[Frank Harvey]

I too considered the new KK, having owned M&K in the past. The KK sub is also fantastic, won't go as low as the Sub15 but it will give a harder punch.

Have you heard the DXD12012 ric? I only ask because I don't want you to assume that the newer KK subs in any way sound like the old ones. Ken realised that any new subs he brought out needed to reach much deeper, and he has managed to do that, but keep the speed and attack that his subs have been known for in the past.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, Son_of_SJ

Wise words and very thoughtful advice regarding the REL G1 I must google that I remember way back in the day rel was mooted once or twice, it is difficult knowing what is what I will read yoru post again and I will take also into consideration what you have written as it is a whole lot of cash to be spending but the rel g1 has it got one 10'' driver as opposed to the Paradigm sub 15'' driver surely the sub 15 would kick the lows lower than the Rel? Just a thought, & to be honest it looks like I will go for the Paradigm sub 15.. God the thoughts of all that low end magic.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

but the rel g1 has it got one 10'' driver as opposed to the Paradigm sub 15'' driver surely the sub 15 would kick the lows lower than the Rel?

The REL G1 has one 12" driver. The summary of the review I mentioned earlier was "Ground-rippling lows with intense grip;" The depth produced by the subwoofer also depends on the cabinet size, not only on the diameter of the driver.

To throw something else completely into the mix, and I have never seen this subwoofer, but since you are thinking of two subwoofers you might want to consider the Jamo D600 5.2 speaker package. This features TWO 15" subwoofers, and was very favourably reviewed in the Temptations section of the May 2012 issue of What Hi-Fi, and also got five stars in the September 2012 issue of Home Cinema Choice magazine. I don't know of any dealer who stocks it normally, you might have to go to the Jamo website. Earlier in the same May issue What Hi-Fi said of the 15" Jamo D600 subwoofer "It's fast and accurate, and capable of truly sofa-shuddering bass" and the HCC review's last paragraph says "With films it delivers cinematic thrills with clarity, insight and precision, and the dual subs provide all the slam you'll ever need." The whole 5.2 package costs about £3,700, with each subwoofer being around £1,400. Oh, the package is THX Ultra 2 certified, so it's good for a sustained 85dB without clipping or distortion, with 20dB of headroom, in a room of up to 3,000 cubic feet, which is almost exactly the size of your room!

Hmm, I guess I'd better not mention any more subwoofers! I'm not really narrowing down your choices!

 

[ric71]

Hi david,

I have not heard it i will confess. I just presumed and from reading info that it being a KK sub it didnt go quite as low also having owned a pair of stacked MK subs. I have been following the thread over on AVF since the start and was very interested in the KK but asthetics ie height and PBK with ARC on my MRX made me go for th Sub15.

 

[Anonymous]

but the rel g1 has it got one 10'' driver as opposed to the Paradigm sub 15'' driver surely the sub 15 would kick the lows lower than the Rel?

The REL G1 has one 12" driver. The summary of the review I mentioned earlier was "Ground-rippling lows with intense grip;" The depth produced by the subwoofer also depends on the cabinet size, not only on the diameter of the driver.

To throw something else completely into the mix, and I have never seen this subwoofer, but since you are thinking of two subwoofers you might want to consider the Jamo D600 5.2 speaker package. This features TWO 15" subwoofers, and was very favourably reviewed in the Temptations section of the May 2012 issue of What Hi-Fi, and also got five stars in the September 2012 issue of Home Cinema Choice magazine. I don't know of any dealer who stocks it normally, you might have to go to the Jamo website. Earlier in the same May issue What Hi-Fi said of the 15" Jamo D600 subwoofer "It's fast and accurate, and capable of truly sofa-shuddering bass" and the HCC review's last paragraph says "With films it delivers cinematic thrills with clarity, insight and precision, and the dual subs provide all the slam you'll ever need." The whole 5.2 package costs about £3,700, with each subwoofer being around £1,400. Oh, the package is THX Ultra 2 certified, so it's good for a sustained 85dB without clipping or distortion, with 20dB of headroom, in a room of up to 3,000 cubic feet, which is almost exactly the size of your room!

Hmm, I guess I'd better not mention any more subwoofers! I'm not really narrowing down your choices!

God whay did you have to go and mention those Jamo D600 subwoofers. Well they do look the business but can they churn out the lows with aplomb and accuracy THX isn't everything it is just specifications at the end of the day and i'm after low end grunt I dont car as to asthetics of the subwoofer as long as it can be felt thats all i'm interested in.

So will these Jamos D600 subs be as good as the Paradigm surely not? I mean the price difference for a start or will these Jamos maybe be as good well now i'm totally confused, and dontk know what to do as I could buy two Jamos straight away and have money left over to take the G/F out or buy her new stilettos she would absolutely love that part yee haaaaa, lol..

 

[Anonymous]

but the rel g1 has it got one 10'' driver as opposed to the Paradigm sub 15'' driver surely the sub 15 would kick the lows lower than the Rel?

The REL G1 has one 12" driver. The summary of the review I mentioned earlier was "Ground-rippling lows with intense grip;" The depth produced by the subwoofer also depends on the cabinet size, not only on the diameter of the driver.

To throw something else completely into the mix, and I have never seen this subwoofer, but since you are thinking of two subwoofers you might want to consider the Jamo D600 5.2 speaker package. This features TWO 15" subwoofers, and was very favourably reviewed in the Temptations section of the May 2012 issue of What Hi-Fi, and also got five stars in the September 2012 issue of Home Cinema Choice magazine. I don't know of any dealer who stocks it normally, you might have to go to the Jamo website. Earlier in the same May issue What Hi-Fi said of the 15" Jamo D600 subwoofer "It's fast and accurate, and capable of truly sofa-shuddering bass" and the HCC review's last paragraph says "With films it delivers cinematic thrills with clarity, insight and precision, and the dual subs provide all the slam you'll ever need." The whole 5.2 package costs about £3,700, with each subwoofer being around £1,400. Oh, the package is THX Ultra 2 certified, so it's good for a sustained 85dB without clipping or distortion, with 20dB of headroom, in a room of up to 3,000 cubic feet, which is almost exactly the size of your room!

Hmm, I guess I'd better not mention any more subwoofers! I'm not really narrowing down your choices!

God whay did you have to go and mention those Jamo D600 subwoofers. Well they do look the business but can they churn out the lows with aplomb and accuracy THX isn't everything it is just specifications at the end of the day and i'm after low end grunt I dont car as to asthetics of the subwoofer as long as it can be felt thats all i'm interested in.

So will these Jamos D600 subs be as good as the Paradigm surely not? I mean the price difference for a start or will these Jamos maybe be as good well now i'm totally confused, and dontk know what to do as I could buy two Jamos straight away and have money left over to take the G/F out or buy her new stilettos she would absolutely love that part yee haaaaa, lol..

 

[Anonymous]

I still think the sub 15 is the better subwoofer though with regards to buils components amplification etc etc, but I could be wrong anyone here can vouch for the D 600 Jamo subwoofer, is it good can it kick the lows what is the honest truth about this subwoofer..

 

[ric71]

Hey ric71.

There you go a self confessed owner that is what I wanted to read someone with first hand knowledge of these subs, so you are giving it a massive thumbs up i'm getting a real good deal on the sub 15 so was thinking round about November I would do the dastardly deed and actually buy one but thought to give this a go writing on the forums before doing so just to see the lie of the land, the sub 1 does sound brill also but I prefer the sub 15 to be honest, then will add a second sub 15 a year down the road, or do you think that would be madness would the one sub 15 suffice on it's own what are your thoughts on that.. Would you agree to having two or just the one or should I say is there a need for two of these sub 15's. Thanks

My room is about two thirds the size of your room, knock through sitting room/dining room. Cinema system in sitting room. The Sub15 is easily more than enough for this room and will be in yours. i too am considering a second Sub15 in a year as i love dual subs even though I do not need a second one ,except that i know what can be acheived. As I said before the KK sub is also fantastic from all that i have read and David@Hifix is an expert in them here in the UK. I used own a pair of stacked M&K MX V125THX subs and they were awesome. At this kind of price level most of the subs mean business. Also consider JL Audio Fathom subs.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Mr Big

I feel that you should also consider JL Audio's Fathom f113 sub woofer. The Fathom f113 reproduces massively fast, tight and deep bass which is supported with great power, grip, drive and hard hitting dynamics :twisted:

Btw, the Fathom f113's Automatic Room Optimization (A.R.O) also works a treat

http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f113-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96137

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Mr Big

I feel that you should also consider JL Audio's Fathom f113 sub woofer. The Fathom f113 reproduces massively fast, tight and deep bass which is supported with great power, grip, drive and hard hitting dynamics :twisted:

Btw, the Fathom f113's Automatic Room Optimization (A.R.O) also works a treat

http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f113-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96137

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Sorry have ruled out the Phantom F113 as it is too over priced, as a matter of fact I have their JL12W7 the 12 inch version of their 13 inch woofer in my car and I made the sub box for that speaker and it rocks as sitting at traffic lights I can rattle the adjacent cars windows to great wonder and wisdom from onlookers.. I actually sell JL Audio car components.. But not their home cinema end..

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi david,

I have not heard it i will confess. I just presumed and from reading info that it being a KK sub it didnt go quite as low also having owned a pair of stacked MK subs. I have been following the thread over on AVF since the start and was very interested in the KK but asthetics ie height and PBK with ARC on my MRX made me go for th Sub15.

I think a lot of people are going to assume that the new Kreisel subs are going to sound like the old ones (lacking ultimate depth and a little lean) - its just something I'm going to have to educate people on

While the DXD12012 is about the same size as an MX350, it outperforms the larger MX5100SF, and will certainly outperform a pair of stacked VX125's. It'll probably outperform four....

Every tiny detail about the new subs has been chosen for a reason. He has stayed away from excessively large roll surrounds and driver excursions, and purposely left out any onboard EQ (as requested by studios). He has also stayed away from the numbers game - a product can look amazing on paper, but specs aren't the be all and end all. An amazing amount of work has been done on the drivers too, from reducing mechanical noise to improved cooling.

Look out for UK reviews that will start coming through next month.

 

[Anonymous]

The Jamo D600 subwoofers look to be very promising for the money, but the only problem is I cant seem to be able to purchase the Jamo D 600 Subwoofer on it's own as it comes as part of the D600 speaker package. :boohoo:

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Mr Big

I feel that you should also consider JL Audio's Fathom f113 sub woofer. The Fathom f113 reproduces massively fast, tight and deep bass which is supported with great power, grip, drive and hard hitting dynamics :twisted:

Btw, the Fathom f113's Automatic Room Optimization (A.R.O) also works a treat

http://www.jlaudio.co.uk/f113-gloss-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96137

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Sorry have ruled out the Phantom F113 as it is too over priced, as a matter of fact I have their JL12W7 the 12 inch version of their 13 inch woofer in my car and I made the sub box for that speaker and it rocks as sitting at traffic lights I can rattle the adjacent cars windows to great wonder and wisdom from onlookers.. I actually sell JL Audio car components.. But not their home cinema end..

Hi Mr Big

I am going to differ with you on the Fathom f113's price because i feel the Fathom f113 is fairly priced. If i felt that this wasn't so then i can asure you that i wouldn't support the Fathom f113.

Anyway please be nice to other cars, drivers and onlookers

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Son_of_SJ]

God whay did you have to go and mention those Jamo D600 subwoofers. Well they do look the business but can they churn out the lows with aplomb and accuracy THX isn't everything it is just specifications at the end of the day and i'm after low end grunt I dont car as to asthetics of the subwoofer as long as it can be felt thats all i'm interested in.

Earlier in the same May issue What Hi-Fi said of the 15" Jamo D600 subwoofer "It's fast and accurate, and capable of truly sofa-shuddering bass"

So will these Jamos D600 subs be as good as the Paradigm surely not? I mean the price difference for a start or will these Jamos maybe be as good well now i'm totally confused, and dontk know what to do as I could buy two Jamos straight away and have money left over to take the G/F out or buy her new stilettos she would absolutely love that part yee haaaaa, lol..

I don't know whether two Jamo D600 subwoofers would be as good as one Paradigm Sub 15, which costs about the same as two Jamos. Perhaps a dealer who sells one or the other might tell us!

Here is the What Hi-Fi review of the Jamo D600 subwoofer and here is the What Hi-Fi review of the 5.2 Jamo D600 speaker package and here is the same text and pictures that appeared in the Home Cinema Choice review. In the interests of balance, here is a review of the Paradigm Sub 15 and this is another, American, review of the Paradigm Sub 15 and here is a link to the manufacturer's website.

 

[v1c]

Mr Big i would just like to draw your attention to t his comment at the end of the DXD-12012 product information.

**Please note that two KEN KREISEL 12” drivers approaches or equals the cone area of a single 18” driver

That would indicate to me that one DXD12012 should be compared to a sub18 not 15 and that just to clarify one DXD12012 has two drivers.

If you still can't see what is the best to get i can't help.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Hello again Mr Big,

Is your head spinning yet? It just occurs to me that nobody has commented on one of the subwoofers that you mentioned in your very first posting, the B and W DB1, which you'll know has TWO 12" drivers so you may want to look at this very favourable B&W DB1 review and also at this more detailed and equally favourable DB1 review. It may also help to look at this REL Gibraltar G1 review, featuring warm applause and at this short statement of the REL at CES 2012.

I stress that I have no personal experience of any of the subwoofers that I and others have been recommending to you. The only ones that I have physically seen are the two second-hand REL Gibraltar G1's . I do own the smaller (SVS PC12-Plus) brother of the SVS PC13-Ultra.

With your approximately £3,500 to spend on one or two subwoofers for a room of 20' by 20' by 8', which is large but not huge, I'm pretty certain that all of them would be fine! As to which of the various combinations mentioned in this thread would be the best, I simply cannot say. Again, judging from my experience with the smaller SVS subwoofer in a room which is about three-quarters the size of yours, with the volume control at about -9dB on my Denon receiver (it goes from -80dB to +15dB) that's about as loudly as I would play any Blu-Ray film, because the floor- and wall-shaking is already, at -9dB (with another 24dB to go!), alarming enough with most films. So I'm really not sure that you need TWO subwoofers for your slightly bigger room.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello again Mr Big,

Is your head spinning yet? It just occurs to me that nobody has commented on one of the subwoofers that you mentioned in your very first posting, the B and W DB1, which you'll know has TWO 12" drivers so you may want to look at this very favourable B&W DB1 review and also at this more detailed and equally favourable DB1 review. It may also help to look at this REL Gibraltar G1 review, featuring warm applause and at this short statement of the REL at CES 2012.

I stress that I have no personal experience of any of the subwoofers that I and others have been recommending to you. The only ones that I have physically seen are the two second-hand REL Gibraltar G1's . I do own the smaller (SVS PC12-Plus) brother of the SVS PC13-Ultra.

With your approximately £3,500 to spend on one or two subwoofers for a room of 20' by 20' by 8', which is large but not huge, I'm pretty certain that all of them would be fine! As to which of the various combinations mentioned in this thread would be the best, I simply cannot say. Again, judging from my experience with the smaller SVS subwoofer in a room which is about three-quarters the size of yours, with the volume control at about -9dB on my Denon receiver (it goes from -80dB to +15dB) that's about as loudly as I would play any Blu-Ray film, because the floor- and wall-shaking is already, at -9dB (with another 24dB to go!), alarming enough with most films. So I'm really not sure that you need TWO subwoofers for your slightly bigger room.

Hello Son_of_SJ Of all of the replies yours seems to have been the most sensible. But I ahve made a decision which I think has answered my prayers and seemingly they make the sub bass drivers for REL and such like subwoofer manufacturers, remember I was thinking of purchasing the Velodyne with the 18'' base driver well guess what there is an English hand built in the UK subwoofer manufacturer you may have heard of them, so lets buy British and help our own economy but it isn't because it is British i'm buying this subwoofer it's because they make the best subwoofers in the whole damn world and this subwoofer is the Reference 800 MKII Subwoofer. So gang this thread is now closed kapeech, zilch, nada. Replies no more fools, except for Son_of_SJ who was very helpfu . I have made my final decision and the Reference 800 MKII Subwoofer it is. This sub will blow the likes of the Phantoms, Paradigm's, Velodynes etc etc clean out of the water. That sub bass driver is a beast and is rated at a low10Hz extension, which should be trouser flappingly good I was after monster bass well gang I have found the best neighbour fallout subwoofer in the world.. Consider nothing else fools.. You have been told so heed my warning, and weep if you have purchased anuthing else fools..

 

[gregvet]

Replies no more fools, except for Son_of_SJ who was very helpfu .Consider nothing else fools.. You have been told so heed my warning, and weep if you have purchased anuthing else fools..

Has Mr Big suddenly become Mr. T?

Crazy Fools.........